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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:A question was put to me recently that has left me to ponder...what would I, should I do. This is something rather close to my heart.

So here is my question to you all.

Say you were born with a specific gene in your body that was identified at a young age.
Now this gene meant that you had the chance of passing on a form of deformity to any children that you may have (each time you had a child the chance of passing this deformity on increased). This deformity would be recognisable to people, though they may not know what it was they would cretainly see that this person is different.

Then the child would have to go through extensive surgeries (not one but many) to rectify this problem, which would mean lots of pain and constant care from doctors, nurses and the parents.

Knowing how cruel the world can be in today's day and age over even the smallest difference and knowing that you would be putting this child through mental and physical pain....

Would you, could you or should you even consider the option of having children?


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Firetramp
Firetramp

old hand
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight
Member Since: 5th Sep 2005
Total posts: 896
Posted:Are there any tests available that could show the risks during early pregnancy?

Ask a question and be a fool for a minute...don't ask and be a fool your whole life.

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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:An Ultrasound may show if the baby has the deformity but there is the chance that it won't pick it up till it is too late to terminate.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Is this about cleft lip?

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:Good guess....

for myself and my friend who were discussing it it was about the cleft but it was bought up because we saw a documentary on a little girl with Treachers which bought us both to tears.

So the question is a general one for any deformity but you can answer it about one specific type if you want.


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Str8Jakit
Str8Jakit

Dealing in Perception & Probability
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sun...
Member Since: 30th Dec 2005
Total posts: 135
Posted:Post deleted by Str8Jakit

Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.

If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Personally I might choose to adopt if I knew that I was a carrier for a deformity gene, but I am very troubled by the morality of that since the problem is with society rather than the individual.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Str8Jakit
Str8Jakit

Dealing in Perception & Probability
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sun...
Member Since: 30th Dec 2005
Total posts: 135
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)

I am very troubled by the morality of that since the problem is with society rather than the individual.



verry true. but wouldn't it be considered selfish to bring a child into the world under those conditions? you know the child will be made fun for the better part of their lives, AND have to go through several corrective surgeries. but still have the child becasue you want to. i agree addoption would be a better choice.....


Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.

If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.

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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:But what if that person wanted to experience the joy of giving birth to their own child?

Adopting isn't the same as going through nine months of a being living and growing inside you (not that I would know what that is like smile )


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:I wouldn't have children if it was me. I'd adopt, certainly.

Do you value the 9 months of personal satisfaction and wonder over and above the 18 years of harassment (or longer) that the child will put up with?

Friendly question. smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:This is just my opinion of course, but I wish adoption was more seen as a excellent alternative to child-bearing.

It helps to alleviate two big social problems-

1. the number of unwanted parentless children

2. the population explosion

IMO, parenting is far more about nurturing and loving little human beings, than fulfiling an archaic and unnecessary genetic urge to actually grew them inside you for 9 months smile

And, while I think it's OK for people to cater to that urge (though still a problem in terms of boosting the population to potentially unsustainable levels); I think, in the situation where it's likely that the child is going to suffer greatly due to a genetic defect- then there's all the more reason to do the whole world a favour, and adopt a child who really needs a parent.

Does that make sense? To me, children are children- it doesn't matter whose womb they came out of- they're human beings.

I also appreciate the issues around detectable genetic disabilities/disfigurements, and that many organisations defending the rights of disabled/disfigured individuals are highly suspicious of some aspects of screening.

I do accept that our society has a long way to go in sorting out its prejudices, and that much of the pain of being disabled/disfigured comes from that prejudice.

But, in this case, i'm just aware of the fact that, wrong as it is, that prejudice is here for the future in which the child is going to be living in, and, as such, that child could well suffer greatly.

This, combined with the fact that, somewhere out there, there's another child, who is barred from happiness only by the fact that they are not part of a family- just seems to me a very good reason to at least consider adoption as an alternative.

I don't know how the process works, but maybe there's an option to foster; this would give some appreciation of what adoption would involve, and is also temporary, so, it leaves the option of later on, having a child the usual way, having at least explored the alternatives.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Str8Jakit
Str8Jakit

Dealing in Perception & Probability
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sun...
Member Since: 30th Dec 2005
Total posts: 135
Posted:ubblol what dave said, but i mean it.....

addoption does seem like the most valid alt here. there are also options if someone wanted to actually go thru the whole experiance of birthing a child. not sure what it's called, but it's the process were they take the genetic make of one set of parents, and inpregnate another woman.......i'm sure someone here knows what i'm talking about......dave? wink


Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.

If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:I agree with Sethis on this one. There is no moral compulsion to have children. While there is also no moral problem with having a child that is "less than perfect" by society's standard, having such a child for selfish reasons may be a problem.



Having your own child is a wonderful experience. So is having sex. However, if I had AIDS, I would abstain from both because I value the health of those around me more than the pleasure I would derive from those activities.



While it is conceivable that a partner would consent to having sex with me even if I had AIDS, a child would not have the opportunity to consent or not.



In many countries, it would be legal to conceive the child, test to see whether it is defective, and then kill it before it is born. In some countries, there is also a push for fourth trimester abortions that would let you kill a defective child even after it is born. However, I would suggest that (aside from the obvious harm to the child) this would probably be far, far more devastating to the mother than merely abstaining from having children in the first place.



I would suggest that pregnancy actually isnt the best part of raising children, and to miss out on pregnancy isnt the worst thing that can happen to a person. From my experience, the conception of the child and the raising of the child after birth are the really fun parts. You can replicate both of these experiences, by having sex without conceiving, and by adopting a child.


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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:Great opinions I love where this discussion is going....

Okay so say that the person who is capable of passing on this defect has decided to not inflict this on another human being so is doing the right thing by herself and any unborn children and protecting herself so as not to get this way but now the partner she is seeing has suddenly decided that he wants herself and him to conceive.

He wants the shild to be of his own body and her own body...what do you think the moral obligation of the woman is seeing as it is her that could potentially pass this on to the child?


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Medusa




He wants the shild to be of his own body and her own body...





To me, isolating that statement emphasises the selfishness and irrationality that lies at the core of it.



What does one value and love about ones children? -



1. the people they are, watching them grow and develop over many years, being part of that process...etc;



or-



2. the fact they they're carrying the same DNA that you are



How much harm has been done in this world because of this irrational emphasis on bloodline?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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jc_firetricks
jc_firetricks

enthusiast
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 5th Dec 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:Adopt. There are already enough children out there, why not save a dying one ?

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

Written by: Medusa
He wants the shild to be of his own body and her own body...

To me, isolating that statement emphasises the selfishness and irrationality that lies at the core of it.

What does one value and love about ones children? -

1. the people they are, watching them grow and develop over many years, being part of that process...etc;

or-

2. the fact they they're carrying the same DNA that you are

How much harm has been done in this world because of this irrational emphasis on bloodline?

I can't agree with OWD more on this. There are much more important things in parenthood than biology. Love and care are far more meaningful than some chemical.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Doesn't that mean you agree with OWD?

confused


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Umm, I think you misread that last post...

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:ubblol

What OWD and Jeff said. It's completely self absorbed to say "I want you to have MY child, and I won't agree to anything "less"" (i.e. Adoption)

But that is an opinion...


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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roarfire
roarfire

comfortably numb
Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2676
Posted:It would depend on how eager you are to have a child, and how much you're willing to sacrifice...



Not to mention being able to financially support all the medical treatment they might have to have.



Personally, I think I would take the risk...



My older brother was born with Cerebral Palsy and is wheelchair bound, yeah, it's been hard for us. I can't begin to imagine how stressful it would have been for Mum and Dad when he was younger...but it all seems to be worth it now. He's the greatest gift to us and fills my days with joy


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:its an interesting topic in a number of ways. i mean its human instinct to have sex (which is reproduction, not fun) but we've changed that. so instinctually it would make sense that people would want to have their own children, continue the genetic line and such. in this way adopting really isnt the same but then there is the human side of things, which is being disgussed.

as a society it would be more beneficial to adopt as it would be reducing the burden by both providing for a child and not having a child that would have to rely on the health system. of course the thing that makes this question really difficult is that there is a chance that you'd have a totally normal child, i think one would have to know the odds of having a deformed child before making a decision.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:Well for my friend and myself (we met at a group of people with the same thing that is why we got into this discussion in the first place) we both have a 50% chance of passing on something to something that we conceive the first time. The chance then grows the more times we conceive.

My fried (Clara is her name) would like to have just one child with her husband, I suggested the adoption route myself as that is what myself and my man would consider doing is we got to the stage that we were ready for children, but her husband is adament that he wants the child to his and hers through conception.


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Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:tricky, i really cant help though because i dont want children at all, so any advice from me probably wouldnt help

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Gnor
Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth
Member Since: 31st Mar 2003
Total posts: 5814
Posted:I think the genetic considerations of children aside she wants to breed with him???....

...but then again why else are we here if not to procreate ickle humans ubbangel


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:I don't want kids either...the thought of going through nine months of hell is scary and then being an actual mother, hell I can't even take care of myself let along a living, breathing little human....

Yes she wants to breed with him (though I don't know why cause the guy is a moron!)


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: roarfire

It would depend on how eager you are to have a child, and how much you're willing to sacrifice...

Not to mention being able to financially support all the medical treatment they might have to have.

Personally, I think I would take the risk...

My older brother was born with Cerebral Palsy and is wheelchair bound, yeah, it's been hard for us. I can't begin to imagine how stressful it would have been for Mum and Dad when he was younger...but it all seems to be worth it now. He's the greatest gift to us and fills my days with joy

Strictly playing Devil's Advoctate here...some might say that an adopted child would have brought just as much love and joy to you. I'm not for a second saying that your older brother shouldn't have been born, but that his parentage isn't the reason for the love between you.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Str8Jakit
Str8Jakit

Dealing in Perception & Probability
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sun...
Member Since: 30th Dec 2005
Total posts: 135
Posted:<deep breath before this one>



i have a 6 (almost 7) year old littel girl. she does not have any of my genetics in her. she's my step daughter. i just hate the word step when it comes to family. this may seem a little off topic, but trust me it will make sense.....i hope.



i can not have kids. period. why i still don't know. but my doc told my wife and i, that the reason we have not had "one of our own" is becasue of me, not her. now i strarted seeing my wife when cyanne (daughter) was a little over 2 years old. we got married when she was 4. over the past few years she has given me more love than i ever thought possible. at first she called me by my name. then daddy.



now like i said i WILL NEVER have a child "of my own." it's not an option for me. now here's my point. the love i get from cyanne, is the same love i would get from "my own" child. the love i give her is the same as well. so to me it's the same concept as addoption. this is not my daughter (geneticaly speaking) but the love we share is as strong as if she was. there is not differnace between the love of and addopted child, or a birthed child. the only differance would come from the mentality of the parents.



i agree with what dave said. your friends guy is being a little selfish here.........genetics don't make up a family, love does.


Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.

If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.

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animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:Hello Medusa.

I have a genetic deformity, that has a 50/50 chance of being passed on.

At the moment, TBH, I can't say whether I would or would not risk passing it on to my descendants...

I've had to deal with the many Surgeries, the social outcasting and bullying at school, a few of the physical hindrances etc... But at the same time, I don't want to put my children through the hell that I went through... I still suffer because of it... and am having to have yet another operation as well...

I could never adopt a child. At least, I don't think I could in my current frame of mind... I want my child to be part of me, to be born out of love, plus, I don't want the hassle of one day having to tell that child it was adopted, that it was unwanted by it's real parents, that it had a mum and Dad once, but they died... I don't want to put Trauma on anybody.

As for having my own kid, As I already said, I don't want to put it through the Hell I went through... but there is a chance that that hell won't happen. I'm the only person in my entire family with this condition... so that's telling me it is a one off...

For me, I don't want to have any Children (In my current thinking). I would still be ecstatic if I did get a girl pregnant, but I'm not gonna go out of my way to do it.


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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Str8Jakit
Str8Jakit

Dealing in Perception & Probability
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sun...
Member Since: 30th Dec 2005
Total posts: 135
Posted:Written by: Leaning_Towards_Corruption

I want my child to be part of me, to be born out of love, plus, I don't want the hassle of one day having to tell that child it was adopted, that it was unwanted by it's real parents, that it had a mum and Dad once, but they died... I don't want to put Trauma on anybody.



2 great points first off. and well put. please understand i am only trying to point a differant view on both of these....

you want a child born out of love. there is not argument for this, but there is another way to think about. love is born out of a child.

as for not wanting to put that kind of truama on a child. you didn't, the original parents did. when they gave their child up, they decided then and there, that they were going to put the truama on the child. if you addopted, you would be deciding to help that child bear the burden. you would be the one helping heal a scar. even if the child is to young to know he/she was being addopted, and one day found out. you would still have laid a foundation for healing.....

again not trying to argue at all. your points are damn good ones. just pointing out a differant perspective.


Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.

If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.

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roarfire
roarfire

comfortably numb
Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2676
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)


Written by: roarfire


It would depend on how eager you are to have a child, and how much you're willing to sacrifice...



Not to mention being able to financially support all the medical treatment they might have to have.



Personally, I think I would take the risk...



My older brother was born with Cerebral Palsy and is wheelchair bound, yeah, it's been hard for us. I can't begin to imagine how stressful it would have been for Mum and Dad when he was younger...but it all seems to be worth it now. He's the greatest gift to us and fills my days with joy









Strictly playing Devil's Advoctate here...some might say that an adopted child would have brought just as much love and joy to you. I'm not for a second saying that your older brother shouldn't have been born, but that his parentage isn't the reason for the love between you.









I'm sorry, but I'm failing to see how that is connected to what I said. I never said anything about adoption, nor am I implying that there would be a possible difference of how much love and joy the two options could bring.



I was merely explaining that a child with a some form of disability/deformity can be equally as rewarding as having a 'normal' child.


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

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