• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 200.00 credit to your HoP account.
 

Forums > Social Discussion > Hamas win Palestinian Election

Login/Join to Participate
Page: 12
dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:This has brought me to the verge of tears.

The Palestinian people have democratically decided that they want their political representatives to be a party commited to the 'Destruction of the state of Israel,' and who campaigned on a platform advocating a policy of non-negociation (as this implies recognising the party you seek to negociate with), and who claim that any Israeli (including unborn children) is a legitimate military target, as all Israelis have a compulsory military service, and as adults are lifelong reservists.

If Hamas now decide to renounce violence, recognise Israel and negociate towards a two-state solution they will betray the values which have seen them elected... Essentially democracy will have been negated.

From what I've read, Hamas want Fatah to form a coalition government with them (although they hold a majority) as this would mean that they wouldn't be pressured to implement their electoral program, but Fatah have so far ruled that possibility out.

If they hold true to their charter and campaign policies, continuing an armed struggle, in an attempt to remove Israel form the map, they will only perpetuate the suffering of a people whose GDP has decreased by 75% in the last five years (since the start of the second infitada).


With Israel due to hold elections in two months time, this result will undoubtedly send the Israeli vote rightwards... Towards the politicians who claim they will be able to protect them, rather than those who seek peace of any sorts. Likud (the Israeli right) were set to be all but wiped out from the Knesset (Israeli parliament) before this. Now I fear there's a chance that Netenyahu will get elected.

Having risked civil war in the disengaement from Gaza in August, Israelis will feel that this election result shows that the Palestinian people don't want peace, and that concessions (however small) they have made have been for nothing. Which plays right into Netenyahu's hands as he was the guy leading the opposition to the disengagement, claiming that the Palestinians were not intrested in peace.

World of rubbishness

frown


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Delete Topic

jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Crap.

Mabey they'll mellow with responsibility... shrug


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:a) the palestinians have the pristine right to act as stupid as the citizens of the US...
b) sharon started as the nightmare for peace negotiations between the two states and look what happened to him.

Talks between the two nations are inevitable - both know this.

Hammas certainly has a problem in changing their attitude now that they hold a mandate, but "Sinn Fein" had the same dilemma.

To put Jeffs statement in different words: Maybe giving Hammas a political window will mark the end of the intifada - personally I'd certainly hope so - so far the mills of polytricks crunched almost every idealism into bits and pieces... shrug wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

squarexbear
squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK
Member Since: 17th Apr 2005
Total posts: 585
Posted:Doh...I read tom's post to mean that all members of Hamas will have a stroke (please don't ask where my brain is today!) but yes, he is right...

I think that there is a positive way of looking at this - yes Hamas are currently committed to a course of violence and destruction. However they have been excluded from the political spectrum because of this, leading to more violence and destruction to get their views across, leading to further exclusion etc etc etc.

Now they have a legitimate place in Palestinian/Israeli politics it could be a step towards peace. They have a lot more to lose now should they pursue violent action. I'm not saying they won't.

It is also possible that the Palestinians elected them knowing full well that they would change their platform. After all, it has been reported that many palestinians are tired of the problems in and around Fatah. maybe Hamas seemed like the only alternative.

I don't think this should be written off as a disaster immediately. The world has to wait and see. Obviously we wont wake up tomorrow to see Palestinians and Israelis skipping hand in hand (although that would be nice, please) but Hamas has to be given a chance.


Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:yepp - it can't be worked out against them - but it will certainly have more use and prospect success if it is worked out with them.

At least then nobody can claim that things were done over their heads without their participation.

I come to the conclusion that this result might even be for the best of the region....

but hey.... surprises happen every day... smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Same as Dostoevskiy
Same as Dostoevskiy

member
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY...
Member Since: 22nd Aug 2003
Total posts: 54
Posted:they're not pollitical idiots

at least i hope they're not=) they'll change. arafat also came up under anti-israeli flags. look what happened then? he changed=)

these guys now have the power. and they got the eyes of the whole world up on them, waiting for a nice moment to nuke them. they will not act stupid=) no, sir=)


when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care

Delete

Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Interesting opinion here



Yes, Hamas isn't a great choice all round, but with global politics being as messed up as they currently are Palestine couldn't afford to have a sheepish government, and the people of Palestine did what other peoples, including Israelis, have done in the past: choosen a fierce leadership during hard times.



It's a crazy world and who knows what happens next. For one thing it's looking laughable that people including Bush are throwing tantrums about a democratic election that didn't go how they wanted in a region that they're harping on about bring democracy to. But sadly that's not a new thing. The EU and US want democracy and capitalism but only on thier terms and for thier benefit. In a way it's good for them to be slapped in the face occasionally!


Delete

jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Looks like Palestein is going to be facing a financial crisis soon due to a drop in foreign aid and harsh measures from Israel.

BBC: Abbas warns of financial crisis

Looks like things could get real dicey real soon. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:"You can vote for anyone you want, so long as it's someone we want."

The hypocrisy is unbelievable. frown


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Isn't it more "You can vote for anyone you want, but you will have to pay for them on your own?"

I'm sure if Germany were to elect the Nazi party, Israel, the US, and many other nations would refuse to send them aid.


Delete

Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Well, no. It isn't.

External countries i.e. Israel and America are manipulating (read: F***ing with) the financial situation of a country based on who they elected in a democratic process.

"You can elect Party A and we'll keep sending you these aid packages and such"

"You can elect Party B and plunge straight into a financial crisis when we stop aid"

Nice choice. If a government is elected by the people then that should be respected, not the cause for, dare I say it? Economic sanctions?


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:On the other hand, Sethis, you're saying that Isreal should be supporting a regime that blows up pizza shops and what-not in its own country?

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917

I'm sure if Germany were to elect the Nazi party, Israel, the US, and many other nations would refuse to send them aid.



Nah, the US only boycott German products cause we DON'T support things like the Iraq war... and parties like Hamas would actually not exist under our current legislation.

But honestly, we kept paying Israel money to make up for a tiny bit of the damage we did during the Nazi regime even if some of their decisions (how many UN resolutions were not kept? I don't remember, but there were quite a few...) were questionable in the context of human rights.

Which is not to say that Hamas should be supported, but I think it is essential to keep some money going to people in Gaza etc who live in circumstances the Hamas is probably not going to improve, but exploit for their ideology.

I'm not happy about the election results, but if I were living there, was less educated than I am now fortunate to be, didn't have internet for less-biased reports, and considered that Fatah and trying to be on a more peaceful road than Hamas had got me there, who knows what I'd have voted shrug

My friend's fatalistic approach is "give everyone as many guns as they want, take the people who don't want to fight out of the country, and send them back to have a peaceful life when everyone else is dead." I'm beginning to see his point...


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Delete

Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:"Regime"? Is that what we're calling legally elected governments now? No offence to you at all, but I have a problem with countries who claim to love democracy then get all upset when a party they don't like gets voted in. (See Dom's comments 5 posts back)

All the effect that stopping aid to Palestine will accomplish will be to turn Palestinian popular opinion against those countries, and lower the quality of life for average Joe Palestinian.

Besides, Hamas haven't really been given a chance to show what their intentions are now that they are in charge of a country. Maybe they'll mellow out. But it seems no-one is keen on giving them that chance...


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Birgit

Which is not to say that Hamas should be supported, but I think it is essential to keep some money going to people in Gaza etc who live in circumstances the Hamas is probably not going to improve, but exploit for their ideology.


Hamas actually has a fairly good track record for improving the infrastructure of Palestein. They build schools and hospitals and are generally social active. That's primaraly the reason they won in the elections.

I'm not supporting Hamas, their belief in terrorism has to change, but they are not entirely evil.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
I'm sure if Germany were to elect the Nazi party, Israel, the US, and many other nations would refuse to send them aid.




Actually the Nazis were very popular with the US right through the thirties and into the start of WW2. Strong, authoritarian (usually highly repressive) right wing governments tend to go with low corporate taxes, employ union busters, and use force to disperse the socialist threat thus providing a low risk market for foreign corporations. Its largely why dictators such as Suharto, the Shah and (pre 1990) Saddam Hussein were US/UK allies.

For example... With the Nazis, you had IBM making the punchcard machines (precursor to the computer) that organized the concentration camps... and Coca-Cola, who invented Fanta as a drink to sell as the patriotic Nazi drink, while continuing to sell Coke with posters of US soldiers on.

Sorry... back on topic...

The reason I was upset when I heard the election result was that this sort of thing was a predictable outcome. Hamas have explicitly refused to end violence and recognise Israel. So the West wont give them aid. Chances are Iran will. Given the rhetoric coming out of Tehran regarding Israel this isn't going to create a situation where any negociations on a lasting peace settlement will take place. So we'll likely see the continuation of Israeli unilateralism which will leave the Palestians with a cantonised unviable state in which to rot. Living under those conditions, the torrent of young, angry Muslims, who see the West as imperial oppressor and thus turn to violence seems unlikely to stop... however draconian the limits on their freedoms are.

For those who have a vested intrest in promoting a clash of civillisations - West/Islam - War on Terror, its great news. For the rest of us, it sucks.

frown


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yeah, well until an alternative to oil is found, we're stuck with this culture war.

Either that or we're in for another holocaust. Although that didn't work so well the first time. Or the second. Or the third. Or the fourth. Come to think of it, it never really has worked that well.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:I'm getting SICK of this! Sorry guys, but this is NOT the free tolerant world and it's proven!

********** deleted emotionally colored post************

Please

a) respect other peoples choices
b) take a close look into the mirror, before you critizise those
c) inform yourself about world politics

UN resolutions between 1955 - 92 AGAINST Israel

Looking at this (for example) and having an arabic background, one could easily come to the conclusion that Israel and the US are doing as they please and don't give a censored about the worlds opinion.

The West is supporting corrupt and terroristic regimes all over the planet. Just because there's no world trade center anymore the US decided, that it's maybe the time to clean up the mess they left, because it SMELLS! (toxic that is)

If the US and Israel wants a puppet-government in Gaza - install it! You have proven in the past that you're capable of doing so.

Besides ranting against Palestinians vote and not having straightened/ updated their own electoral system, (falsely) prohibiting people from voting and (the list is too long) - the US-american public should really start to care more about their own pile of sh*t in the backyard, before messing with everybody elses.

For christs sake, take a close look in the mirror before trampling over other peoples choices!


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:That still doesn't make terrorism right. mad

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

Delete

ducky2108
ducky2108

A little bit of a board whore
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 18th Dec 2005
Total posts: 147
Posted:Terrorism is never right, but then I notice that nobody here seems to have questioned HOW the got into power.

And also, what are the reasons Palestine is reliant on aid. Could it be because of the previous actions of Israel, supported by the US, to take any semblance of self sufficiency away from them?


Ancient wiseman say "It is very strange person, who, when left alone in room with teacosy, does not try it on"

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:See - I do NOT justify terrorism... I'm just trying to aggravate sensitivity about the various points of view... Jake as you say: "This doesn't justify terrorism..." ... in Gaza there are people who say exactly the same vice versa...



... and then you find those who say that it DOES justify terrorism...



To end the conflict both parties have to go to the root cause! I can't exactly say where this is, but one thing I do know for sure: There are a lot of influencal people who benefit from this and who have a) the means and b) the interest for it to continue - on both sides!



What would YOU do as a Palestinian?... I personally can only say that as a Palestinian I would do the same as an Israeli these days: LEAVE my country... because I do want to live my life in peace and the only "battles" I want to fight are on the chessboard or the PC.



shrug period...

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1140780128)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by:
On the other hand (...) you're saying that Isreal should be supporting a regime that blows up pizza shops and what-not in its own country?



I am confused on this one:

- do you actually mean that in terms of: "We shouldn't don't support a regime that blows up things and people in their own country," or
- do you mean: "don't support a regime that blows up things and people in our country..." umm

However, Hammas won 48% of the registered votes. About 75% of the registered voters were going to the election. Gaza has a population of about 3.2 Million. Do the maths... wink

I do understand the angle you're coming from and am likely to agree, but by stopping all aid and diplomatic negotiations with "Palestine" not only the ones who voted get hurt, but also the others who voted for Fatah and those who didn't or couldn't vote.

Would you consider it appropriate that ALL citizens of a country have to be held responsible for their gouvernment collectively? Just wondering... shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
And also, what are the reasons Palestine is reliant on aid. Could it be because of the previous actions of Israel, supported by the US, to take any semblance of self sufficiency away from them?




The Palestinians have never really been self-sufficient. Before living under the Israelis they lived under British rule between the world wars, and the Ottoman Empire for several centuries beforehand. The Occupied Territories were not occupied Palestinian land... The West Bank was part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. Neither State wants the land back. As a result they end up as a bit of a grey area under international law.

Before the first Infitada the Palestininans in Israel were actually much better of in terms of GDP per capita than Palestinians living anywhere else in the Middle East... They worked with Israelis... They took the same buses and trains... Used the same shops... hell my Israeli mum used to hitch lifts into town with Palestinians three times a week.
Then when people started getting stabbed in bus queues (the 1st Infitada didn't start with suicide bombings) the Israeli reaction was to impose strict controls on Palestinian movements... Searches at checkpoints etc... Which alienated the vast majority of peaceful Palestinians who had nowt to do with killing anyone.

Palestinian GDP per capita is currently 20% of what it was five years ago before the start of the second infitada.

This is largely down to four reasons (that I can think of); 1)The repressive policies imposed by the Israelis (24 hour curfews, demolition of housing etc), 2) fighting between rival Palestinian factions (which last year is believed to be responsible for more Palestinan deaths than the Isreali army) 3) Corruption of the Palestinian Authority, Yasser Arafat died a multi-millionaire while his people suffered abject poverty, the corruption of high ranking Fatah officials has prevented money reaching the people whjo need it most and was a big factor in the Palestinian rejection of the incumbent government at the polls. 4) What Marx would term antiproduction, the amount of money spent on arms would go along way to building some Palestinian infrastructure. However much of the money spent on arms has come from Iran, Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood and Saudi. These aren't places who have much interest in either peace with a jewish state in the Middle East or the well being of the Palestinan people.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Even though I am NOT an expert on middle east history and politics -

Generally the "claim" of the "arab population formerly living on the territory of Israel" (aka "the Palestinians" - a name that came up after the state of Israel was founded) is the Israeli mainland, including Jerusalem.

The occupied territories therefore are a "compensation" for this land - or am I having a erraneous perspective?

Dream: clap thanks for spelling it out! Occupation and colonialisation are a curse, rather than a blessing... IMO it greatly reflects on the idendity of the population/ their culture, when they couldn't govern themselves...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Claims to land just create more issues...

Jews lived there two thousand odd years ago when they last had their own state. Various groups have 'claimed' the land (by invasion) since.

Since the start of the twentieth century, rich European Jews (notably the Rothschilds) started buying large tracts of land in what is now Israel, looking to reestablish a jewish state there. There was a treaty signed in London just after WW1 basically suggesting a Jewish state in what was then British occupied land.

Many more Jews moved there from Europe during and immediately after the second world war. Also after WW2 the Brittish and French League of nations mandated territories in the Middle East became independent countries such as Jordan, Iraq and Iran. there had been a significant number of jews living in the middle east throughout history, but the new arab rulers of some of these states didn't want jews on their land, so many were killed or fled to israel.

1948 saw a UN sponsored plan for a two state solution, with what is now Israel pretty much divided in half between jews and arabs. The jews accepted the border, the palestinian delegation led by the grand Mufti of jerusalem (a wartime ally of hitler) said that no Muslim could ever accept a jewish state in the Middle east, and the two state solution went out the window as the region descended into a civil war that later became known as the Israeli war of independence.

It should be noted however that the civil war was not universal across the state. For instance, the Palestinans who lived in the coastal city of Haifa merely refused to fight or flee their homes (as ordered by the garnd Mufti). As a result they have remained their in peaceful cohabitation with Israeli's ever since. Likewise Druze arabs live across Israel, and fight in the Israeli army.

It should also be noted that the 1948 UN plan saw the US vote against Israel... The establishment of Kibbutzes (communes) had been ongoing on Jewish owned land in what was to become Israel since the 20's, and the US was deeply concerned that Isreal would become a USSR client state, giving the commitern international a foothold in the middle east, a region which US/UK intelligence claimed was vital to any nation looking to acheive global dominance due to it's oil riches.


Between 1948 and 1973 Israel was invaded every few years by a selection of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, and Sudan. The rhetoric invoked here was generally along the lines of

Written by:
Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight... We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948.



or

Written by:
As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence.



both from egyptian premier Nasser in 1967

The combined Arab armies never managed to inflict the military defeat they sought on Israel, and on the contrary suffered several humilating defeats, after which Israel annexed land from its defeated foes.

After the six day war in 1967 they annexed the Gaza Strip from Egypt - in response to not only the invasion, but also Egypt's attempt to economically strangle Israel through their blockade of the Straits of Tiran, a violation of the Convention on the Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone, which was adopted by the UN Conference on the Law of the Sea on April 27, 1958.

From Jordan they annexed the West bank (of the river Jordan), an area which includes much of biblical Israel, including Jerusalem, the Holiest city in Judaism, which includes the Wailing wall, the religions holiest site.

From Syria they annexed the Golan heights (which often isn't included as part of the occupied territories as there aren't many Palestinians living there... however it is technically an occupied territory under international law, and the only one which Israel would have a 'legal' partner in returning), the rationality being that the heights, which tower 3,000 ft over the sea of galilee and northern Israel were used as a military platform to shell Israel before the war began. Secondly, and perhaps more pertinently, the Golan Heights provided Syria with access to the sea of Galilee which supplies about 35% of Israel's water (remember its basically a desert), access which they had used to try and poison the water supply, which would have decimated Israeli agriculture. Thus the Heights were annexed to prevent a repeat scenario.



One of the reasons why most Israelis now support a two state solution with the Palestinians recieving a state based upon Gaza and the West bank (minus jerusalem) is population growth. In 1948 there were between 500,000 and 750,000 palestinans, whereas the jewish population more than doubled that. Israelis howver has a much lower birth rate than Palestinians... and despite the influx of jews from ex-soviet states and the US within twenty years there will be more palestinians than jews in Israel... which has massive implications for Israel as a democratic state. This has been explicitly mentioned as a problem by figures such as Olmert (current acting president) and Sharon.

Interstingly though Israel isn't the only state with this problem. Jordan now has a population of over 50% palestinians. Indeed many people consider the best chance the palestinians have had for a economically viable independent state, to have been a union of the West bank with the East bank... However the failure of the palestinian majority in the 1970 Jordanian civil war (which claimed tens of thousands of casualties) has left that option seeming incredibly unlikely... for now at least.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: FireTom

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />
On the other hand (...) you're saying that Isreal should be supporting a regime that blows up pizza shops and what-not in its own country?



I am confused on this one:

- do you actually mean that in terms of: "We shouldn't don't support a regime that blows up things and people in their own country," or
- do you mean: "don't support a regime that blows up things and people in our country..." umm




I mean that Israel had been planning, if I understand correctly, to offer aid to Palestine. Israel has a right to refuse to give money to a regime that has a history of commiting terrible terrorist acts directed against Israeli civilians.




Would you consider it appropriate that ALL citizens of a country have to be held responsible for their gouvernment collectively? Just wondering... shrug



Yup. Because ALL citizens of the US have to live with W. Even those of us who didn't vote for him in the first place. That's the bitch of democracy. If your guy loses, you get to deal with the other guy's guy.

When I was a kid my mom always told me I could cut my hair however I wanted it, but that if she didn't like the style, then I'd have to pay for it. This is essentially the same deal.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well but Israel would proove a good deal of good will, if they continue to support the Palestinians (the way of support doesn't necessarily have to be in TNT or ammunition... wink )

It's in the psychology of some to see aid as aid and not a "deal" - you help because of humanitarian grounds and compassion - not because you want anything in return.

I accept your position, hence I am opposing that an entire population has to suffer and is judged, because one part of it decides against the international / political etiquette... I too like to ride on and play with this, but always know that none of the americans I met and know have voted for Bush... Wonder why? wink

Behind the collective, there is always the individual and to me you're Doc Lightning! And not "part of an american collective that fails to set up a democracy and effective elections" (if my informations are correct, it's proven that Bush had less votes than Gore)...

Anyways, Dream, thanks heeps for the historical background of the state of Israel. I believe it's important to understand both sides of the conflict in order to come to reason - your information offers a good deal on the Israeli side... unfortunately we don't have the view of a rational Palestinian in here, do we?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

Delete

Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I disagree with Doc. It's correct that everyone in a country has to suffer the consequences of a democratic vote, but you're only responsible for it if you haven't done your best to avoid it. So I'd count most people who just voted for the democrats to not have Bush responsible, an everyone who didn't vote, too, but not the ones who actively campaigned and tried to convince other people to vote. (though it doesn't help them in the long run, I know...)

Rational Palestinians... well, when I was in Israel on school exchange we spent a week with Israeli school kids and another week travelling and in Jerusalem, where we met a group of Palestinian musicians who taught us how to drum and invited us back a couple of times for more music and talking. I would've called them moderate, they were unhappy with the situation but they wouldn't have blown themselves up or anything. One of them had been in prison for setting fire to an (empty) Israeli car, along with his dad and 5 brothers, and said the reason he'd never do it again is that he broke his mum's heart. Which is quite sweet, but not really that rational...

At the same time, our "left-wing" Israeli exchange students said all Arabs should die, and the army people I met (who supposedly have a very strict view) said Palestine should get its own country as soon as possible.

I understand how strategic places in Israel are so fought over, like the River Jordan (it's the only reasonably sized river in a dry country) and the Golan heights (if the surrounding countries could be trusted it wouldn't be that bad, but as it is it's an important place to hold for Israel to prevent attacks). I can also see how Palestine doesn't want to give up Jerusalem/Al-Quds, because it is as important to them religion-wise as it is to the Jewish, and as it used to be to the Christians when they organised the crusades (the whole bloody mess is like a repeat of the Crusades but with new participants if you ask me). Also, while it's easy for Christians to go and see their holy places in Jerusalem, and it gets encouraged for tourism reasons, Muslims face things like bag controls (at least when I was there) if they want to see their Dome much more frequently. Not to mention how it feels if you're part of a disliked minority and there's soldiers with machine guns standing outside your door all day, as I saw in Jerusalem.

So for the religious adn strategic reasons alone it would be difficult to find a working separation of the country, let alone the political ones dream has explained.

It's as usual: Those few people that want violence dictate the life of everyone else. See threads on war in Iraq, gun control, knives, violence in schools and whatever you want really.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Delete

dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:I'm not israeli... I'm British. My mum was born in Israel but has lived here for 25 years because she didn't want to be Israeli. Both her parents incidentally were Iraqi. They left Basra as teenagers having been told to leave the newly nationalised state of Iraq or be executed. Prior to that there had been Jews in Babylon since biblical times.

I have Israeli family... but having seen them for the first time in 10 years last summer I'm hoping not to see them for at least another 10. They spent most they're time telling me I'd been brainwashed by antisemetic media, and that I wanted 'my own people' to die. I called them straight up racists because thats what they are. Frankly I'm embarassed to know them, much less be related to them.

I know a lot about Israeli history because if you want to argue with Israelis about why they need to alter the way they treat Palestinans you damn well need to be able to support your arguments with some incontrevertible facts..

Young Israelis have grown up in a state of perpetual fear, and their paranoia (partially justified) now means that there has to be a massive change of mindset there for a sustainable and just peace. While there is an argument that only the militatnt extremists on both sides are able to make a deal that wont be scuppered by their own people, its not one I subscribe to as I just can't see any Israeli govenment negociating with Hamas (without the group changing its support for the destruction of the state of Israel) or Likud (or Kadima) willing to give the Palestinians an economically viable state.

Negociations are NOT inevitable... they weren't between 48 and 96 so why should they be now. Israeli unilateralism is not going to give the Palestinians anything but a cantonised poverty stricken dump in which to rot, and they're only getting that much to prevent there being more Palestinians than Israelis in Israel - which would raise questions about Israel as a democracy.

Having said that Israel is a deeply divided nation and I met some really lovely people there who are dedicated to peace and scathing of their government.

What many of them said to me was that the peace movement has never really recovered from the failure of Barak to deliver a peace deal at Camp David... Arafat was offered Gaza, the West Bank (without all of the settlements Sharon has authorized over the last 5 years) and East Jerusalem as its capital. This was the best the Palestinans were ever going to get at the table and still Arafat said no. The deal was seen as so good, that it spelled the end of Barak's career... when the Israeli public found out how much land (especially East Jerusalem) he had offered to give away, with nothing offered in return (at this time there was no violence) they were sufficiently pissed off to vote in Sharon... the hardliner who they saw as the man to stand up for their interests. Which of course meant provoking the Palestinans - by walking around the Muslim quater of the old city of Jerusalem - igniting the riot which began the second (current) infitada... and making life a hell of a lot worse for most people on both sides, while securing his own position as the hardliner who would crack down on the militants.


Written by:
Tom - Understanding and continuous effort sound like political slogans but is the only way to come to peace.



yep. that and forgiveness.

By the way... Birgit, bag checks, metal detectors, seperate buses etc has only been a policy since the start of the first infitada.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

Delete

Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: dream

By the way... Birgit, bag checks, metal detectors, seperate buses etc has only been a policy since the start of the first infitada.



I know... never said it wasn't. I can understand it, since terrorism for the Israeli population comes from the Palestinian side, so yeah, checking everyone else as well isn't gonna make a difference, but it won't help easing the tension. I don't have any data on how many people are found carrying explosives etc in the controls, I hope they're worth it...

you know where it started going too far for me?

Now, I'm aware that Israeli soldiers HAVE to have their gun with them, or they get in trouble.

But seeing a completely pissed soldier in a club dancing with his machine gun on doesn't work for me. Neither does seeing a soldier in shorts and with his girlfriend on his arm, but with a machine gun in the Yad Vashem (holocaust monument) - have they learned nothing???

We saw a movie there, I can't remember the title... something like "the israeli army in the occupied territories", which showed some scenes of torture, and then interviewed about 10 different Israeli soldiers on what had happened. You got every opinion between "so what? they don't deserve any better" and "if we torture them, we're no better than the Nazis". It was quite impressive, and left all of us shattered for a few hours trying to comprehend what was going on, if anyone knows which film I'm talking of and remembers the title please let me know!

I don't think it'll be for rental though because as far as I know it had only been shown at very few film festivals, and never been "properly" released.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

Delete

Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: FireTom

I accept your position, hence I am opposing that an entire population has to suffer and is judged, because one part of it decides against the international / political etiquette...



And your alternative is...?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Delete

Page: 12

Similar Topics

Using the keywords [hama* win palestinian election] we found the following similar topics.
1. Forums > Hamas win Palestinian Election [34 replies]
2. Forums > alleged election fraud in 2004 U.S. Presidential election [5 replies]
3. Forums > Is Mugabe a lesser Hitler? [47 replies]
4. Forums > win a trip to space [6 replies]
5. Forums > london mayoral election [23 replies]

     Show more..