Page: 12
Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:ok. *deep breath*

I know this will more than likely get me flamed but I dont really mind.

I have been coming to the social chat part of Hop less and less these days because the social part of the board seems to be filled with.. well.. crap.

I enjoy a game as much as the last person, but I really do think that the number of games is getting huge and quite mindnumbing.

In my honest opinion I think that some of the threads are a bit of a waste of bandwidth which could be filled with much more positive threads.

Im sorry to say this as I dont want to cause any disharmony on hop at all, but some of those threads have no point when you could be really enriching those people reading hop by telling us about the fun things you may have encountered, exciting travel storys, new books you have read, movies to see, polls on peoples opinions.

I see that miss flash has just shut the "what do you know about the hopper above you" and the "either/or" thread and I applaud that desicion so so much! smile

maybe if you want to play games there are websites just for that and you could make new friends here and let us get to know you so much more by posting threads with a true purpose?

thats just my opinion but I ache for the days when the social chat area had interesting chat topics, not nessacarily hardcore topics like religion etc, just INTERESTING....

ok. yeah.
smile

*disclaimer, this is not aimed at anyone, Im not personally flaming anyone and I hope I have not just caused ww3 on hop. smile


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: simian


OWD - Do you not think that perhaps the inanity is encouraged to multiply by giving it it's own forum?



Witness how much more silly crap has been posted since Social was split originally...





The beauty of splitting 'chat' is that, even if it doesn't cut down on innane posting, it's no longer a problem as it's all in an easily avoidable place. The main gripe seem to be that those who want to use 'chat' are having to wade through a whole lot of irrelevant threads.



As for the previous split into 'Chat' and 'Discussion', I see it as a 100% success- in all honesty, if that split hadn't occurred, I very much doubt I would still be using HOP. I post mainly in 'Discussion' cos I'm interested in discussions that are relativly serious and coherent.



I don't mind Chat-type stuff, as long as it's in the appropriate forum where I don't have to wade through it unless I want to.



To be honest, I've little interest in the 'Chat' board, and am suggesting the split for the following two reasons-



1. we're getting occasional 'Chat refugees' starting threads in 'Discussion' that don't belong there



2. despite the fact that I very rarely use the 'Chat' board, I respect those who do, and a lot of them are clearly not happy with the current number of inane threads



We have one precedent for splitting a board on the grounds that there was too great a range of inane/serious threads, and, like I said, IMO, and the opinion of many others, despite initial reservations, it was a big success.



Written by:




I can't see people going to a different forum just to post junk. I understand why they do it in Chat (and I've done it a few times) but an area specifically designated for it? Not sure that would work.









It's up to them whether they use the new board; the point is that, when it's set up, any inane/game threads posted in 'Chat' get instantly deleted or moved to the right place, because they breach the board guidelines


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:'Chat refugees'


ubblol


Getting to the other side smile

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:Lots of food for thought in this thread.

NYC - just to respond to a point you made (am in a hurry and can't respond in full) game threads, including either/or and what do you know are permitted. I locked & deleted the old ones because they were extremely large threads with the first 200 or so pages of each being entirely redundant with most of the members no longer active*. I wanted to see what would happen should I lock the threads, and made it clear at the time that it would be okay for people to restart the threads "if they must".

I just want to see a fair number of threads in Chat that are games, rather than the majority of threads in Chat being games... I personally feel there needs to be a limit of 5 -10 game threads in place, with each thread marked with a number by a moderator.

I also thing the idea of moving game threads to Introductions is worthy of consideration, and I will put it to Malcolm. The only real issue I see with that is knowing where to draw the line - is it a game thread, or is it not? Ya know?


*not necessarily substantiated.


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squarexbear
squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK
Member Since: 17th Apr 2005
Total posts: 585
Posted:I've not used the site for a couple of months because the games were getting sillier yet still TAKING OVER MY LIFE AAARRRGH! and i'm back and they're still here but i'm resisting..



The games did help me feel more comfortable and get to know other members, and they were a good refuge from feeling like a total newbie, but i don't see that they need to be quite so um prolific. Maybe there should be a 'shallow end' type board for newbie posts, questions and games? which could be merged with the intro board or something.

somewhere where it is gently suggested that they do a search, instead of being shouted at..(yes it really does feel like that)..and maybe where new kids can learn about funny things called spelling and punctuation?



PS i really like the shout it from the rooftops thread, don't ask why but i think its good and also not a game.

hurray.


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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:please do not move the games to intros, Its really for introductions, not inane spam.

Flynty and I have discussed this and think that its not a good idea since the intros are a place to meet noobs and welcome them into the fold and get to know them...
I feel pretty strongly in this becasue I dont want to be picking through "the decimal point game" and "what do you know" to find Moonpixies intro thread to post.

redface

I think maybe a games forum if its that important for people to have them on Hop.


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:Good points Valura - will take into account.

Re: a separate games forum. I'm personally really against this concept... It's not why we're here. Hard to fully express why I don't want this to happen, but surely people have more to do with their lives than spend all day on HoP wasting away their hours on crap like that? It's like handing an alcoholic a case of beer... Not constructive. Although, I'm in no position to impose my version of A Life Worth Living on people... I guess if they want to spend hours and hours on such non-productive, anti-social, brain muddling crap, then that's their prerogative.


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: flash fire

non-productive, anti-social, brain muddling crap




ubblol ubblol

Now the question you have to ask yourself is how you think you're making recent members feel who've posted in those threads that you know and love... I know if I was new to any site and the Mods were complaining about any forum then I'd hesitate to post there.

Obviously, no-one is obligated to actually like the games, but do we really need to shout this loudly/abusively about them? shrug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:Written by: Sethis


Written by: flash fire


non-productive, anti-social, brain muddling crap







ubblol ubblol



Now the question you have to ask yourself is how you think you're making recent members feel who've posted in those threads that you know and love... I know if I was new to any site and the Mods were complaining about any forum then I'd hesitate to post there.



Obviously, no-one is obligated to actually like the games, but do we really need to shout this loudly/abusively about them? shrug





I'm entitled to my opinion... and let's not forget that my opinion is based on over 4 years of having to deal with game threads, as well as the resulting conflicts they cause every few months... such as this thread. ubblol



Do you have scientific evidence contrary to my pontificating (and let's make it clear - that's all I'm doing right now... pontificating) Are they in fact productive, socially valuable, and intellectually stimulating? wink Okay, one or two might be socially valuable (What Do You Know About....) but I'm making sweeping statements, so neeeer. ubbloco



I'm not making character judgements on the people who "contribute" to the game threads... I couldn't even tell you who the main "contributors" are. So fear not. ubblove



Edit: I'm not writing off an entire forum as crap, just the majority of game threads. I wanted to clarify this, as you stated " know if I was new to any site and the Mods were complaining about any forum then I'd hesitate to post there."


EDITED_BY: flash fire (1138146303)


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Given the three options of-

a. leaving things as they are
b. banning/strongly discouraging games
c. setting up a seperate 'Games' board

my preference would be 'c'- setting up a seperate 'Games' board.

Like many here, I consider the games stuff to be inane and pointless, wouldn't personally engage with such threads and understand fully why those who use 'Chat' would find them annoying in large numbers.

Nevertheless I'd be uneasy about banning/strongly discouraging them, on the grounds that the fact they are so heavily used seems to indicate that some people do like them (a lot).

In the absence of any good reasons not to have it (e.g. bandwidth, though I can't see a 'Games' board adding substantially to that) I'd feel uneasy about pushing for the removal of something that others seem to feel the need for.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:What about option d. Restricting number of active game threads permitted?

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: flash fire




... and let's not forget that my opinion is based on over 4 years of having to deal with game threads, as well as the resulting conflicts they cause every few months... such as this thread. ubblol



Do you have scientific evidence contrary to my pontificating (and let's make it clear - that's all I'm doing right now... pontificating) Are they in fact productive, socially valuable, and intellectually stimulating? wink Okay, one or two might be socially valuable (What Do You Know About....) but I'm making sweeping statements, so neeeer. ubbloco







Is there any evidence that the conflicts are caused by the games threads?



It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the conflicts arise because the games threads are in the 'Chat' board,



i.e. it's not the games threads themselves that cause problems, but the fact that they tend to overwealm other threads that 'chat' users consider to be more worthwhile.



(so, by giving games their own board, they shouldn't be conflicts)



Written by: flash fire


What about option d. Restricting number of active game threads permitted?







I guess that I see a seperate board as being the easiest option, as restricting active games threads would seem to require a fair bit of monitoring by the mods?



However, if you see advantages to option d, then it would be interesting if you posted them; certainly, if they're good points then I'm open to changing my opinion.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: flash fire

What about option d. Restricting number of active game threads permitted?



I'm curious here... so please read any questions as genuine curiosity and not as being contrary.

1) Why do you feel that 20 game threads is unacceptable but 5 is OK?

2) What will be mechanism by which it is decided which threads will live and which will die?

3) How will this not create an ungodly amount of work for Moderators constantly placing them in a position of arbitrary killjoy?

I should say that I have no real attachment to any part of Chat.

Bah... I babbled a bit in this portion which I kindly deleted but my main point was...

I think arbitrary moderation of chat threads only breeds friction between mod and member.

If it's not clearly defined what will and won't be deleted BEFORE anything is written, any deletion/locking can only be taken personally.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:Yeah.

Screw it. Screw progress! We fear change!


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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:(incase you're wondering, that's me bowing out of this cyclical debate. Until some other mods/admin get in on it, I can't see the point in continuing... besides I have 5 weeks of work to catch up on)

btw - I see 5 games as acceptable and 20 as unacceptable (numbers used for sake of argument) because we are trying to find a BALANCE in social chat between game threads and other threads. People have indicated that they don't like having to sift through a largely overrun by games forum in order to find other threads.

*sigh*


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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:Alternatively, we could just rename Chat "Games" and have Discussion be a little less serious, but maintaining On Topic rules.

Hang on - I said I was leaving...

*goes*


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:NO!

Don't screw discussion because the Chat kids can't keep their crap straight.

Discussion is perfect. Please let it be. In fact, every other forum seems perfect so let's not put the apple before the cart... or the baby in the bathwater... or something.

Or is that one of those George Bushian tactics to distract everyone with something controversial so they won't see the real point. "We could allow games in the chat thread but we'd have to ban gay marriage." wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:i mentioned to dom aaaaaaaaaaages ago about having a seperate forum for listing regular meets that take place each week to make it easier for ppl to find stuff thats always on, he pointed out that theres already so many forums for new ppl to try and find what they are looking for without it being to daunting. i think maybe the same applies to having a games forum.

maybe a possible alternative would be having a giant games thread where the first post contains a list of the games and how to play them so you answer the previous game and then cite the next game number and question? just one big mother of all games, when a new game is invented the person pms the mods who add it to the first post


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Whilst an additional board for games may indeed add to potential confusion for newbies, I reckon that the alternatives of allowing only a set number of games in chat, or of having one big game thread, will be more open to confusion and inadvertant mis-use.

I believe people follow rules/guidelines best, when those rules/guidelines are clearly set out. easy to understand and, when infractions occur, immediately pointed out and rectified.

It seems to me keeping games in chat, but limiting them to one, or to 'x' numbers of threads, will require more moderation, and will be more open to misunderstanding, than simply having a board titled 'Games' and then making new games threads in chat, something which members report to the mods.

NYC is spot on about not messing with 'Discussion' IMO- it works really well and a big part of the reason is that the regular users value it and take care of it by reporting inapropriate threads.

But the main thing, I think, isn't whether I'm right or wrong about the wisdom of a seperate games board, but that people who use 'Chat' start to post their views about how they want it to be; after all, they're the ones using the place.

While I disagree with Bens point above, I'm glad he's posted it, because it is a valid possible downside to having a seperate games board.

And that's what we need to be discussing- the pros and cons of the various alternatives.

Like I said before, I barely use 'Chat'- it's those who do should be putting forward their opinions.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Mr_Chutney
Mr_Chutney

Tosser
Location: Herefordshire
Member Since: 18th Apr 2003
Total posts: 1711
Posted:I think a reason that chat is not frequented more by many hoppers is because its so full of rubbish. Thus why lots of chat has moved into the intro threads.

I have become frustrated when posting what I deem to be useful articles with wide interest not fit for discussion (for example one on the excellent Voice over IP software Skype) which disappear within minutes due to the frantic posting in game threads.

I don't think we should add a separate area just for games- this will probably encourage more games to be created, and whilst they would be separate, they would also increase traffic and most likely slow the site down; we have only recently been moved to a new server and I'm already experiencing time outs and slow response- surely we don't want to increase demands on it even more with what can only be described as useless posts?


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:1. are they useless?

Certainly, to me, they appear inane and pointless; yet, the fact that they are so popular indicates that others find them good, or useful, in some way.

We really need some input from the people who do use the game threads, and also from those who no longer do so, but once did.

Maybe the use of the games threads is that they ease people into using the board? (only way to find out is if the two groups above start to post their views)

2. will they slow the site down/cause bandwidth problems?

Personally I doubt that they will do so to any appreciable extent- they're text-based threads with 'replies' generally consisting of few words.

But, I'm not as tech as some here, so, again, if there are reasons to believe that a 'Games' board will slow down HOP, let's here them (ideally,reasons as opposed to opinions).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:1. Are they useless - *shrugs* maybe maybe not but clearly ppl enjoy them



2. Do they cause bandwidth problems



as a rough estimation



well i just saved a page locally to get an idea of how big they are, the page itself is 136 kb and the associated images are 128 kb but most of these will be cached. (this was taken from the new what do u know about the hopper above you thread)



the locked either or thread had 20186 views (second biggest) so thats 2745296 kb = 2745 mb = 2.7 gig of bandwidth over 2 and bit years so about 112 meg a month in bandwidth for that single thread



theres atleast 10 threads averaging 10 000 views so thats over 10 000 000 kb = 10 gig over 2 years so approximately half a gig a month in games threads.



what price do u place on the value they bring?



as a very rough comparision guide in the photo gallery the top 10 photo galleries average around 36 000 views lets take a conservative (Ry !!!) estimate of 40 kb per image theres 1440000 kb = 1.4 gig ~ 0.05 gig a month



doing a quick click through the average per gallery is probably 1500 ish views and theres 86 * 9 galleries so thats 46440000 kb = 46 gig of bandwidth ~ 2 gig a month



i guess malcolms the one to ask really

EDITED_BY: ben-ja-men (1138200260)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Crikey Ben,
You really ARE avoiding writing that d*mn thesis! wink


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ubblol juggle ubbangel
debugging horrid logic code is just unappealing, buuuut i think i finally have a valid data set biggrin


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: newgabe

Crikey Ben,
You really ARE avoiding writing that d*mn thesis! wink



seconded!

work, dah! you phd students... got another one off running around doing anything but as well!


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Bumpity Bump.
I reckon we could do with this being resolved a bit more rather than being left to slowly sink into the depths of older posts since people obviously feel strongly about the subject.

Also, I'd be happy to see all of the games posts go. This is the home of poi and fire twirling, not the home of poi and fire twirling and assorted stupid and inane games after all.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: TheBovrilMonkey

Bumpity Bump.
I reckon we could do with this being resolved a bit more rather than being left to slowly sink into the depths of older posts since people obviously feel strongly about the subject.

Also, I'd be happy to see all of the games posts go. This is the home of poi and fire twirling, not the home of poi and fire twirling and assorted stupid and inane games after all.



I don't think that follows- by the same reasoning it's not the home of discussion either, so we could wave goodbye to social 'discussion' and 'chat'.

It is interesting how so few people here are defending the 'games' threads, yet the fact that they're posted in to the extent that they annoy so much, would suggest that many HOP-ers do use them.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:True, but the difference is that no-one's complaining about the chat or discussions parts (parts of them, but not the whole things).
They at least help build a sense of community, but I think that the stupid games threads are pushing away more people than they're welcoming.

I don't have the time to look at the moment, since I'm about to head off for work, but I'd be interested to see how many unique posters there are in most of those games threads. I got the impression last time I looked at a couple that not many hoppers used them, it was the same few people. Could be wrong now though, it's been a while since I looked in any of them.
I also get the impression that there's a large number of people who never look in any section other than chat, which is possibly why they're not defending their games. If they only spend their time in the chat section playing games, why are they on this site, rather than one based around chatting and playing games?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Page: 12

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