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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1785
Posted:I had the worst ever start to the year, a friend of mine overdosed. It was the most terrifying night of my life. Thankfully he was unsuccessful in his attempt.

What i want to know is peoples opinion on what should be done to prevent suicide. Should people be left to take their own life or is it ok to do everything you can to stop them?

I am asking this because in the UK there seems that there is nothing in place to stop people taking their lives

My friend had been drinking lots all night whilst on anti-depressants, then decided it was a good idea to get some cocaine off someone they had never met. The combination of drink and drugs turned him to something i never thought him capable of, he got really and agressive, angry and upset. The situation soon got very out of control and it took 4 policemen pinning him to the ground to stop him hurting himself or other people. This behaviour was completely out of character and i am assuming that it was the combination of drink and drugs, combined with his depression that caused it to escalate into such a crazy situation.

Once on the ground it was clear that he was in need of medical help, he was really ill.

The police wouldn't help as he had technically done nothing to warrant an arrest. They wanted him to go to hospital but they could not force him and he didnt not want to go. He was a danger to himself and others and they could/would do nothing to stop him. He kept saying he was going to kill himself and i really don't think the police were taking it seriously enough.

Eventually I managed to get him in to my car and took him to the hospital where he ran away. After a couple of hours of trying to find him and get help for him, i managed to get him home, hoping that he would calm down once at home. Unfortunately he ran upstairs, locked himself in the bathroom and overdosed. We had to axe down the door to get to him but he had jumped out of the window. It took another hour to find him and get him back to the house, by which time he was looking really really ill and had no idea what was going on. I called an ambulance but he refused to let them help him. There was nothing that the paramedics could do because he was refusing treatment.

Eventually i managed to get him into my car and i drove him to hospital, he went into the hospital but was still refusing treatment. Because he is an adult and refusing treatment there was nothing that the doctors could do. It wasn't until he was so out of it that he was barely concious and me shouting at him that he allowed the doctors to help him.

Correct me if i am wrong but i am of the understanding that in America, if someone is trying to kill themselves, the doctors are allowed to intervene and do everything they can to stop them.

In the UK it seems that there is nothing that can be done to stop someone killing themselves unless they decide that they want help.

So, is it right to intervene and stop someone from taking their own life? Should there be laws in place that allow the doctors/police to take over and try and prevent tragedy?

I'm sorry if this is rambling and difficult to read, i am still really really shaken up by this and finding it really difficult to think straight. My friend remembers very little of the evening but i remember every moment. I have never been so scared in all my life.


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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:hug

take care lady and i hope your friend finds the strength to sort himself out.


Getting to the other side smile

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IkleStrawberry
SILVER Member since Nov 2005

IkleStrawberry

newbie
Location: Liverpool

Total posts: 17
Posted:Im in two minds about this one. I do believe that anybody under the influence of drugs/alcohol or has mental health problems is not cabable of making that decision and does need some protection and help with these things.
Although I think that anybody of sound mind and not under the influence should be able to make their own decision and be left to do as they please.
2 of my friends have managed to commit suicide so far, but I belive it was their right.


~Im playing the game~

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:It sounds like you had a nightmare of a time hug One day I'm sure your friend will see just how much you did for him and will be so thankful for what you have done. Despite everything you didn't give up on him. hug You're a very good and special person Beth.


In allowing medical people to intervene, would that not mean having to making suicide illegal again? Most people that attempt/commit suicide are suffering from severe depression. I don't really believe criminalizing (?not sure thats a word?) them for an act they do when sick is right. I don't really know the answer to this question. Treating people against their will is kind of taking their right to choice away, but then if they are deemed to be unfit to make that choice....... I don't really know.

I'm just glad to know there are people, like you, in the world willing to fight so hard for a friends life.


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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Beth


Beth

Miss Whippy
Location: Cornwall & Oxford

Total posts: 1262
Posted:Suicide is still illegal isnt it? Yet i think it's one of those 'crimes' that isnt taken too seriously by the police, like smoking weed.

Written by:
I don't really believe criminalizing (?not sure thats a word?) them for an act they do when sick is right



By that statement you could say that if someone is severely depressed/sick/etc. and murders someone else, is it then right to punish them?

This is a difficult issue and has ties to that of euthenasia. How can you determine when someone is of sound mind?

Beth, i'm sorry you had such a terrible start to the year. I hope your friend recovers and I hope the rest of the year is happier for you both. hug


Aim high and you'll know your limits, aim low and you'll never know how high you could have climbed.

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Miranda (mewcat)
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

Miranda (mewcat)

queen of all the hipsters
Location: Cornwall/Birmingham

Total posts: 150
Posted:You poor thing! What a dreadful thing to happen. My love and best wishes to both you and your friend.

to live at all is miracle enough

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marco


enthusiast
Location: uk

Total posts: 328
Posted:
I will write a more detailed response to this when I can get to my notes, under the 'mental' health act, under sections 2,3 and 4 being admission for assessment for up to 28 days, admission for treatment for up to 6 months initially, and emergency admission for up to 72 hours initially respectively.

Section 2, 3 provides the authority for someone to be detained in hospital for assessment. It requires an application which is based on two medical recommendations read psychiatrists / clinical psychologists / doctors etc mental health care professionals.

Section 4 is intended for emergency admissions, where if it were not for the extreme urgency, a section 2 would be appropriate, a section 4 requires only one medical recommendation, compared with two for a section 2. An Application has to be made, based on that single medical recommendation.

This process doesn't criminalise suicidal ideation / attempted etc, but it does provide a framework through which soneone whom is according to the professional judgement of two doctors etc is a danger to themselves and or others can be provided a treatment window.

hope this helps

mark

clinical psychologist in training


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: .:star:.

I had the worst ever start to the year, a friend of mine overdosed. It was the most terrifying night of my life. Thankfully he was unsuccessful in his attempt.................

So, is it right to intervene and stop someone from taking their own life? Should there be laws in place that allow the doctors/police to take over and try and prevent tragedy?

I'm sorry if this is rambling and difficult to read, i am still really really shaken up by this and finding it really difficult to think straight. My friend remembers very little of the evening but i remember every moment. I have never been so scared in all my life.



Sorry to hear that, it must have been incredibly harsh for you to have to deal with it.

IMO, if someone sincerely wishes to die, they are entitled to do so; but they need to be sober, and they need to think it through, and that needs to take place over an extended period.

Examples would be someone who has an incurable illness that, in their opinion, makes living life not worth it.

It could even include people who are chronically depressed over a long term- if they're tried medical treatments, and are of the view that they simply do not want to live, then that's their choice.

I don't think it's OK for that choice to be made whilst under the influence of drugs- especially in the scenario you describe above; it seems to me that your friend should have been taken into some kind of care until they'd got clear of the drugs influence and back to some kind of objective frame of mind.

A little known fact concerning suicide is that it's actually quite hard to successfully kill yourself.

Years back, when I was in a very dark state of mind for a very extended period of time, I was convinced that I needed to leave this life, and did a fair bit of research on ways to guarantee success in suicide.

It turns out that overdosing is not a practical way to do it- there are only a very few drugs that will definitly kill, and they are illegal and virtually impossible to get anywhere in the west.

A high portion of those who attempt suicide using the usual pharmacuticals, will not die, but will wake up in hospital, sadly having suffered irreperable organ damage.

In my view, this is more reason for suicide to be legal under certain circumstances (ie the ones mentioned above) and that it is carried out with the help of experts, to minimise suffering and ensure that it is successful.

DIY suicides are not a good idea (though I don't believe that survivors of such suicides should be in any way punished by the law).

And, in the case of your friend, I feel that, over the extended period he was in contact with several different police/health professionals, that he should have been taken to a place of care till he was objective again.

Lastly, make sure you take care of yourself; sometimes these things don't actually fully hit you till well after they're over- what you described sounds like it must have been hell, and I'm surprised you're dealing with it so well (not that I'm suggesting you're exceptionally fragile- this kind of thing can affect anyone badly).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:..star.. hug horrible start into a new year and yet again an opportunity to reflect... !?!

Personally one of my deepest new years resolutions is to stay off drugabuse myself and not get emotionally involved with drug addicts anymore... no matter how close friends they appeared to have been up until now.

We love to have and show compassion for others (sometimes deep inside having the hidden urge to feel good about ourselves) - IMO you did the right thing - just meditate on how far you want to take your compassion...

May the new year improve by 1.000.000 % for you


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:I think its all up to the person whos commiting suicide. Ans I also think its a mortal sin.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:A sin? Do you mean that literally?

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1785
Posted:Thanks for the support everyone hug
I have to admit i haven't really been coping with this very well but i have to stay strong for my friend. He doesn't remember a lot of that night but i remember every last second, i really wish i didn't. He said to me today that he wishes he had 'done a proper job.' I'm terrified that he'll try something again. He's agreed to go to the doctors tomorrow so hopefully he will get some of the help he needs.

One of the things that concerned and angered me most was that the doctors were only concerned with what was physically wrong with him, there was no effort to try and help him in any other way. They didn't offer any councelling or psychological/psychiatric help whatsoever. I really feel like they didn't take the whole situation seriously.
and before anyone says 'it was new years eve, they much have been really busy', the casualty department was empty, there was an old man with a bad back and a kid with a broken arm, that was it. The doctors and nurses were just sitting around, it even took them twenty minutes to bring my friend some water. The police weren't busy either, it was the least violent/troublesome night i have ever seen in Taunton!

------------------
anyway...back to the discussion about the law

I think i agree that if someone is sober and of sound mind (as sound as one's mind can be when wanting to take their own life) then yes, that is their choice.

In situations like what i described i really cannot see how it can be ok to stand back and do nothing. If i hadn't been there, things could have been a lot worse, what about the people who get into this state and don't have someone there willing to do anything to help?

----------------------------

again, thanks for the support, being able to talk about this is the only thing keeping me sane right now
hug


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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:So sorry you are dealing with this! Please make sure you do get support for yourself, after such a traumatic time you need someone to step in and take care of you a while! grouphug

I hope you can recognize that although you love and support your friend, this is not a situation where you have control. He may kill himself, and you will have to somehow accept that possibility. You can get very hurt and exhausted trying to stop his breakdown. Somehow, you have to do what you can-continue to offer your love support and practical skills, but reduce your fears, and limit your involement to what is manageable. Please, dont let his nightmare become yours.

For me, in a similar situation,I got overwhelmed. So, I enlisted help!
help
I had to involve the individuals family,so he had people checking in on his well being, told other friends what was happenning so he got emotional support from a broad group of people( not just me) , and arranged psychiatric care. Initially I oversaw that he actually went to the doctor( made the appointments, drove him, paid for some) but soon realized I could not manage anothers life...

After many hellish few months of dealing with his scary crazy desperate behaviour and a particularily bad night,he walked out the door saying he was going to throw himself in front of a truck. I had intervened many times, but this time I was exhausted, in all senses of the word. I called his mom, and called the police, said a prayer, and cried myself to sleep. I could not go through it with him anymore.

The good news is, he made it. Now, a few years later, after much counselling, medications and life changes, he is stabilized and doing fabulous.Not even on meds any more. He goes to get his PHD this year, and though still suffers the occasionally low period , as do we all, he is very happy with his life, and glad he did not succeed in killing himself.
biggrin biggrin
ubbrollsmile
So, star, there is hope, it *can* go from such an extreme to a better place. But maybe it will not, and you may need to accept that too, and be ready to let him go. Your memories of the last night will fade to a manageable level, if you take care of yourself and dont get immeshed in his personal hell...

It is good that at least the situation is out in the open. I have had a friend kill themselves without so much of a word to anyone that they were even considering it! So maybe he is getting ready to accept help, if some can be found. Check for suicide support services in your area, they can be very helpful, for him, and for you! In most places, a crisis line can usually find one for you...

Wishing you well
peace
hug
~a


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: .:star:.
He said to me today that he wishes he had 'done a proper job.' I'm terrified that he'll try something again.



My personal advice as you sound really as a very nice person: run - as fast as you can!

Don't get sucked into this nightmare! Travel India for a while and maybe you understand where to involve and where to keep out of!

hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:Written by: Beth

Written by: skulduggery
I don't really believe criminalizing (?not sure thats a word?) them for an act they do when sick is right



By that statement you could say that if someone is severely depressed/sick/etc. and murders someone else, is it then right to punish them?




No that isn't quite what I mean't but I'm rubbish at getting what I really mean in text, especially when it is on a topic I'm emotionally effected by, so I'll leave.

The only other thing I'll add to this thread is, if you are feeling like death is the only way out of a bad situation you are in, feeling like you have no one to turn too or talk to without being judged or lectured at, try HERE.

It is often easier to talk to a listening stranger than someone you know. They will not do anything other than listen to you. Sometimes that is enough to help you work out that there is another option than death. They won't tell you what to do but they will be a sounding board for you to figure out what your next move might be.

hug


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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PyroWill
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines

Total posts: 4437
Posted:I think the law against suicide (if there is one) won't be too effective, in many ways it's much like the law against underage sex, everyone knows it happens but what can be done about it, police don't go arresting children that they know have had sex under 16 do they? Its because its near enough impossible to monitor, much like people commiting suicide, how can a police person know if someone is in there bedroom somewhere taking an overdose or hanging themselves.

And lets look at the outcome, say the person is unsuccessful in their attempt and get 'caught' what will happen? do the police say "bad person!" and lock them up for a night, what the hell will that do.

Commiting suicide may be illegal, but I dont think its considered a crime.

I hope your friend will be OK Beth hug and well done for watching out for him, some people arent so lucky


An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:@ FireTom: So when you have a good friend who's going through a depressing time of their life and they need someone to talk to and be with...

You'll run away from them?

Isn't the whole point of friendship that you'll help each other through thick and thin? You'll be there for each other and you'll try your damned hardest to help with each others problems? If I went to one of my friends and said "I'm having a really difficult time right now, and I'm starting to contemplate suicide" (which I wouldn't, because I'm not) then I'd really like to think that they wouldn't say "Aaaarrgghhh!! NO!! You're not sucking me into your emotional black hole you evil bugger!!!" Because imagine how much better I would feel after that... umm

Travel India... What? confused


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Suicide is normally a last resort, when the victim has so many troubles that they cannot take anymore.
Attempted suicide is a cry for help. If that person really wanted to die, they would do it properly.
Sadly, its the ones that succeed that cannot be helped, and normally there were no signs that he or she was about to take their own life.
There is a fine line between the two and it gets blurred alot.
The suicides that are "successful" are normally committed by selfish people. not caring how their death will affect others around them.
That's where mine failed, as not only didnt i have the balls to see it through, but I knew how it would affect people around me.

There is ALWAYS help available, even if you cannot see it for yourself. This world may be a horrible place at times but look at this community - it's full of help, compassion and love. There is hope in this world.


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:A random aside was a coworker of mine had an interesting perspective.

She basically said "You can do whatever you want as long as you don't have children. If you have kids, you're not allowed to kill yourself."

It's a bit oversimplified but I kind of agree.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Sethis

@ FireTom: So when you have a good friend who's going through a depressing time of their life and they need someone to talk to and be with...

You'll run away from them?

Isn't the whole point of friendship that you'll help each other through thick and thin? You'll be there for each other and you'll try your damned hardest to help with each others problems? If I went to one of my friends and said "I'm having a really difficult time right now, and I'm starting to contemplate suicide" (which I wouldn't, because I'm not) then I'd really like to think that they wouldn't say "Aaaarrgghhh!! NO!! You're not sucking me into your emotional black hole you evil bugger!!!" Because imagine how much better I would feel after that... umm

Travel India... What? confused



Sometimes suicidal individuals will, without intending to, suck people into their nightmare, and, if that happens, it can not only destroy the other person, but will help sustain the suicidal tendencies of the depressed person.

In that situation, the suicidal person will be helped more, by refusing to engage with what they are giving out.

In that situation, it's not cruelty, but compassion, to set clear limits and guidelines as to what is acceptable behaviour.

If it gets to the point where the depressed person is saying to their friend- 'you come running when I demand it, or I'll kill myself'- that is unacceptable, and going along with it will damage everyone involved.

I'm not saying all suicidal people do this, but some do.

I think andrealee's post probably best explains what I'm trying to say here- it's important to be there for a suicidal friend, but also important to do what is good for them, and that is not necessarily what they want you to do.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: TinklePants


The suicides that are "successful" are normally committed by selfish people. not caring how their death will affect others around them.







No, I disagree; many successful suicides are people who simply feel that they cannot be here, or that they don't wish to be here; often after many long years of trying to find a solution to the feelings that they cannot cope with.



Others are victims of mental illness.



To remember them as 'selfish' is, IMO. cruel and pointless.



Many truly good and sincere people have left this world by suicide, isn't it best to remember them with respect?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Sethis, I think all Fire Tom was trying to point out with his comment about travelling India is that you learn through drastic expereince of poverty illness misery and death, that there is so much suffering, you are not able to aleviate it all. You learn to walk with it,accept it, practice compassion and choose carefully what you can manage to be involved in. Or at least that is what I got out of it...But maybe that is just a random interpretation? Fire Tom?

OWD, I totally agree with your comments about selfishness et al, and NYC, the one from your friend, well, I kinda agree too, at least for the most part!

It seems to me as a society, we need the systems of support in place. Having a law may or may not make this possible/accessible, sounds more like not... But sometimes that is what criminalization is about, not punishment. Gives the
" Authorities" the right to intervene... May not always be a bad thing?


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1785
Posted:Today has been far more productive

I spent time with my friends family, explaining everything to them, now they understand the situation a bit better they are in a better position to help and support him.

I took him to the doctors who have sorted out some new medication for him (only giving him a few tablets at a time to be safe). He has a councilling appointment tomorrow and is seeing a psychiatrist next week.

The fact that he is beginning to accept this help is a really positive sign. Now that there are more people to support him and more help available i don't feel so alone in trying to cope with this. I know its not over yet but a great weight has been lifted off my shoulders.

-----------------------------

I understand that criminalising suicide would be the wrong way to go, i just think there should be something that allows police or doctors to intervene in a situation like i described.


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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

Written by: TinklePants

The suicides that are "successful" are normally committed by selfish people. not caring how their death will affect others around them.




No, I disagree; many successful suicides are people who simply feel that they cannot be here, or that they don't wish to be here; often after many long years of trying to find a solution to the feelings that they cannot cope with.

Others are victims of mental illness.

To remember them as 'selfish' is, IMO. cruel and pointless.

Many truly good and sincere people have left this world by suicide, isn't it best to remember them with respect?


I'm not saying to disrespect them.
I'm just saying that knowing how my family love each other I would never do that to them. Plus If i had done it i wouldnt have had my two gorgeous daughters ubblove
And if my daughters ever said they felt like doing so, i would tell them that too. I would thell them why, plus explain to them how much i love them and need them and if they needed any help, i'd be there for them. Without question.


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Disrespect is not a verb. PLEASE don't contribute to the decay of the English language by using it as such. You mean you weren't saying it to be *disrespectful*. I'm not picking on you specifically, but god that use of the word annoys me.

And I'm not saying you should stay with a manipulative person. I thought my post kinda indicated that BOTH people need to be there for each other, else that is not, by my definition, friendship.

And if you feel you're being dragged down by them then you just have to tell them "You're ruining my emotional life as well, get a grip or I won't be here when you need me next." I've found in the past that me saying that has shocked them into trying to change their behaviour. If all they do is constantly dump on you, then warn them that's what they're doing and that's not what friends are for. That's what councellors are for.

@ andrealee: I'm not sure what poverty in India has to do with suicide, because there's a hell of a difference between the problems of a country full of people you don't know (which you can't help) compared to the suffering of one individual that you know really well (and maybe you can help). But I'll wait for FireTom to explain.

@ .:star:. : Glad things seem to be getting better and you're talking well with people. Yay for improvements! smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Would 'I didnt mean to show disrispect' be an acceptable use of the word? lol I never listend in english when they were teaching us about verbs and nouns and pronouns and all that, I honestly couldnt give you a definition of any of them.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:"To show disrespect"

"To be disrespectful"

Those are the normal two uses of the word. You cannot say "He was disrespecting me" or "I don't disrespect you, you don't disrespect me". That is how the word is NOT used.

And you didn't answer my question umm wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Sethis


@ FireTom: So when you have a good friend who's going through a depressing time of their life and they need someone to talk to and be with...



You'll run away from them?





sure not, sethis... I'm never running away from any friend who is in desperate need of help. hug



I hope my post again is not sparking the same controversial discussion leading intoo personal attacks... rolleyes



But I give you a different example (as a methaphore) : Your in a peer group and someone introduces drugs (for say sniffing glue) into the group. For the next years you spend time with the people you love and sniff glue along for a past time. Then you find out that this stuff actually can kill you, but no-one else shares the experience... so quit for yourself and leave the group. 2 years later you find your friends got smart enough to quit too, so you rejoin... (t)... as now they switched to a more "harmless", hence potentially extremely addictive drug... you find yourself smot poking for the next 20 years and your life goes down the drain, along with your health, money and relationships, career, etc... you beg the people you love to get to at least a "reasonable" ammount of consumption (if this is possible at all).. nobody listens as nobody shares the "problem"... so you find yourself sucked into the same nightmare every time you join the ones you love... consequence????



offtopic ??? not really as the consumption of a potentially extremely addictive and harmful substance (including alcohol and tobacco) is a part of the "suicidal tendency"...



to come back to this case (in general): some people in here (andrea and dave hug thankx) have understood the angle I am coming from...



The world is full with "wannabe-helpers" but as a matter of fact they may just worsen the condition with paying the attention the other is claiming with their actions... (there is another theory that suiciders are attention-seekers) and ultimately end up with a whole garbage-yard themselves... which - under the rule of karma - again is self inflicted and therefore chosen with a reason.



You have a friend who is suicidal? unless you're a certified psychiatrist - keep the f***k out of it as much as possible! (my personal advice) Don't polish your ego if you can save him for a while... by the time he really commits what he thinks is his right(eous) way... YOU go down in a depression and full of guilt s**t!!!



Everyone has (more or less) a "desire" to die, so called "death urge"... some more, some less... some are acting it out, some are not. The scenery described from *star* is IMO a perfect example of someone in need of help!



Direct him to a psychiatrist, detach as much as possible! Mad Doctors sometimes are very screwed up themselves, but hence... another possibility for someone depressed is to travel India himself (unless he's a drug addict - in this case never go to Goa)... when you have experienced the open hearted devotion of Kerala or the Himalayas - the Energy of a hundred children gazing at you with a smile as whide as the Golden Gate Bridge and teeth sparkling like the Milky Way... WOW if this doesn't give you a natural high - your case is totally helpless... shrug rolleyes



India teaches you LOADS of experiences, once you get your head out of the chillumms... wink You walk down the road and on every step you take you find 10(!) little children who ask you for a donation... (at least in Delhi)... what you do? Teach them that what they are doing is the perfect way to raise money? You walk down the road and on every step you find 10 gurus/ swamis/ name them... (at least in Rishikesh) who ask you for a donation... what you do? Unless you have an endless bank account, a golden goose - just walk on.



Your energy is much more helpful if you become embassador, or chairman of the UN and teach multinationals to distribute their wealth.



Sorry for cutting this off here, but after 3 days of severe rainfall, for the first time the sun is shining in the afternoon and I will go to the beach and spin a round of poi, shaking off my last nights experience bye


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Hey Tom,

I'm definately not launching into personal attacks, I'm questioning what you said in your post. When I feel like calling you a g!t then I'll tell you in no uncertain terms wink biggrin

I think your example is not really relevant. What you're describing is a social group causing problems for an individual who is part of that group. Suicide most often happens in people who are less socially inclined. I.e. People who are depressed enough to contemplate it generally have very few friends they can turn to.

And what you've said is directly contradictory:

Written by: FireTom

I'm never running away from any friend who is in desperate need of help.




Written by: FireTom

unless you're a certified psychiatrist - keep the f***k out of it as much as possible! ... detach as much as possible!




Well it sure as hell sounds like you're running away from them, so you don't get sucked down if they do decide to commit suicide. There's a risk of your emotional state getting damaged? So you "keep the f***k out"? Thanks for the dedication, man.

Also I take issue with this:

Written by: FireTom

"wannabe-helpers" but as a matter of fact they may just worsen the condition with paying the attention the other is claiming with their actions




I have been a "wannabe helper". I have made friends with someone who had attempted suicide in the past, and still had problems self harming. There was every chance they might try again. According to you, then I should have said "Here's the number of a psychologist, stay the hell away from me."

I didn't. I've stayed good friends with them for over 9 months, talking to them more or less every day, looking at their arms every time I saw them, seeing how the scars were getting less and less, and smaller and smaller as time went by. Finally they stopped altogether.

The person had no professional help (through their own preference) and only had me and 1 other "real" friend to talk to. Their family (or what passes for it) didn't, and still doesn't know.

I helped them. It's that simple. Now that they are somewhat better, the person has said that without me, the odds were about 60-40 in favour that they would have tried suicide again. They didn't. And now, hopefully, they can try to regain some kind of social life, make new friends and move on from a dark episode in their life. They know I took a risk to reach out to them, and they appreciate it. I know that now they would do the same for me. Friends. That's what the word means.

If another of my friends has a similar problem, guess what? I'm not going to walk away. Accuse me of "Caring too much" and "Paying too much attention to attention seekers" all you want. I'm not going to walk away from a friend in need.

If they do kill themselves, and I'm emotionally involved, and my heart gets torn apart by guilt and grief... then I'll be able to sleep easier knowing that I tried.

Take Care. beerchug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:In the US it *is* illegal to attempt to commit suicide. Why?
Because then the cops can take you in, the hospital *will* treat you and the courts can sentence you to an institution for mental help, all without permission.

It takes the power of decision out of the hands of the person and puts it into the hands of people who can help.

Also in the US, your friend would have been arrested under public disruption/endangerment laws..which is really an excuse for them to take him to jail where he can't hurt anyone and he can sleep it off for the night.

Some of our laws here really are for the good of people instead of public agenda wink

I'm split on suicide.
On one hand I'd rather that they kill themselves vs. doing alot of harm to someone else, depending on the circumstance. In this way I find it merciful.

However suicide is never so easy or empty, and it is an act of pure selfishness as well. The families and loved ones suffer...for years and years. I've known 4 or 5 suicides in my life thusfar, two were people who were associated with my family (though not me) and there are no words for the damage it inflicts on the emotion and mental state of others. Whether or not that person has children, very often there is someone who loves him/her who is affected.

It's a touchy, crappy, sucky subject and I hate to say it but I am usually on the side of lettin' 'em go. *shrug* So long as no children are the ones to find them (the two associated with the family both had children find them....which is disgusting!)

Sorry you had to go through that Star, but think of it this way....it can only go up from there..right? hug


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Hey Star, I'm sorry about your friend, I'm sure that he doesn't WANT to commit suicide, and just sees it as the only escape from the internal mental torment that he's going through.
The awful thing with situations that your friend went through is that there are immense waiting lists for help and support.
It's like they ship you into hospital, patch you up physically and throw you back to the wolves, then 6 months later you might get a bit of counselling. It's a ridiculous system that has to change.
star, sorry again for your friend, be strong for him hug ubblove


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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