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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1785
Posted:I had the worst ever start to the year, a friend of mine overdosed. It was the most terrifying night of my life. Thankfully he was unsuccessful in his attempt.

What i want to know is peoples opinion on what should be done to prevent suicide. Should people be left to take their own life or is it ok to do everything you can to stop them?

I am asking this because in the UK there seems that there is nothing in place to stop people taking their lives

My friend had been drinking lots all night whilst on anti-depressants, then decided it was a good idea to get some cocaine off someone they had never met. The combination of drink and drugs turned him to something i never thought him capable of, he got really and agressive, angry and upset. The situation soon got very out of control and it took 4 policemen pinning him to the ground to stop him hurting himself or other people. This behaviour was completely out of character and i am assuming that it was the combination of drink and drugs, combined with his depression that caused it to escalate into such a crazy situation.

Once on the ground it was clear that he was in need of medical help, he was really ill.

The police wouldn't help as he had technically done nothing to warrant an arrest. They wanted him to go to hospital but they could not force him and he didnt not want to go. He was a danger to himself and others and they could/would do nothing to stop him. He kept saying he was going to kill himself and i really don't think the police were taking it seriously enough.

Eventually I managed to get him in to my car and took him to the hospital where he ran away. After a couple of hours of trying to find him and get help for him, i managed to get him home, hoping that he would calm down once at home. Unfortunately he ran upstairs, locked himself in the bathroom and overdosed. We had to axe down the door to get to him but he had jumped out of the window. It took another hour to find him and get him back to the house, by which time he was looking really really ill and had no idea what was going on. I called an ambulance but he refused to let them help him. There was nothing that the paramedics could do because he was refusing treatment.

Eventually i managed to get him into my car and i drove him to hospital, he went into the hospital but was still refusing treatment. Because he is an adult and refusing treatment there was nothing that the doctors could do. It wasn't until he was so out of it that he was barely concious and me shouting at him that he allowed the doctors to help him.

Correct me if i am wrong but i am of the understanding that in America, if someone is trying to kill themselves, the doctors are allowed to intervene and do everything they can to stop them.

In the UK it seems that there is nothing that can be done to stop someone killing themselves unless they decide that they want help.

So, is it right to intervene and stop someone from taking their own life? Should there be laws in place that allow the doctors/police to take over and try and prevent tragedy?

I'm sorry if this is rambling and difficult to read, i am still really really shaken up by this and finding it really difficult to think straight. My friend remembers very little of the evening but i remember every moment. I have never been so scared in all my life.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I remember reading a long discission on the topic of suicide which stemmed from the question of whether railings should be built on the Golden Gate bridge. A good case for suicide can be made in situations involving extreme physical pain and suffering with no hope of recovery. In general however most suicide atempts are due to deep rooted unhappyness and depression and so most people atempting suicide are not doing so with a sound mind. Because of that I think the state has a responsibility to prevent people from commiting suicide except in cases of terminal illness and to provide help and counsiling to those who attempt suicide.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Hairy Tait
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Hairy Tait

member
Location: Back in the Future

Total posts: 109
Posted:This is a tough one....
One of my friends tried to commit suicide, or should i say made a suicidal gesture, after her mum died last year.... she only made a cut ( a pretty nasty one ) in her arm.... and all she succeeded in doing was worrying her friends and obtaining a scar and makin sure we never felt completely comfortable about leaving her on her own........

If someone really wants to kill themselves ...they'll do it... there are plenty of ways to make sure no-one will stop you..... anyone who lets their friends know they want to do it, is:
a) Crying out for help
.b) Attention seeking
.c) being completely selfish

Obviously people get depressed, or very sad...i know i've been sad, maybe even depressed and i have thought about killing myself before.... but i think of the people who love me and the fact tomorrow might not be so bad and i don't do it....








I reckon euthanasia should be made legal for people with terminal illnesses, but people who are just a bit unhappy.... either do yourself in and amke all the people who love you devastated at your death orspeak to someone about how bad you feel....if you can't do that..... spare a thought for the people you'll leave behind mourning you......



It sounds like your friend might just have managed to do it had you not been so persitent.... and for that i commend you.... but i still think you shouldn't have been left with the worry that if you leave your friend on their own, they'll do it again properly.....

Drink and Drugs are never a good combo for unstable people......




Sorry for ranting, but i feel very strongly about suicide.......


It's a very interesting story, Future Boy....!

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Written by: Hairy Tait


anyone who lets their friends know they want to do it,(commit suicide) is:
a) Crying out for help
.b) Attention seeking
.c) being completely selfish



*............AND........*



but people who are just a bit unhappy.... either do yourself in and amke all the people who love you devastated at your death



I find these comments offensive.
The utter desperation before an act of suicide is not selfish or attention seeking.
I've spoken to many people who all agree that when suicidal tendencies take over, you feel like you have no control. it is really really scary.
I agree that the best option is to speak to a loved one about how you feel, however this is so difficult and to a depressed person, loved ones won't want to know anyway.
An act of suicide can seem like a gesture of kindness "doing away with a burden" that kind of thing.
A suicidal person isn't trying to seek attention, but think about it, if someone is willing to overdose or slit their wrists, perhaps they need attention? Perhaps they need someone listen to their cries for help? hug


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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steaks
SILVER Member since Dec 2005

steaks

former manc tour guide
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1909
Posted:firstly, im sorry to hear you had to go through that over new year, i encountered someone very close to me trying to kill themselves the night before new years eve a couple of years ago, totaly ruining my plans and any enjoyment i might have had.

secondly, glad to hear your friend is recieving help and you are not alone in this anymore hug

as for the legal standing on suicide, im torn and don't know where i would like to see the line drawn confused

kiss hug hug2


Owned by the lovely SNOOPoi
Owner of Clarence_Quack

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:soooooooo, um, what if you have an argument with a friend who has previously attempted suicide, and later they tell you they started self harming again because of that arguement, how exactly do you handle that?

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Lost83spy
BRONZE Member since Sep 2005

Lost83spy

Out! Out! You demons of stupidity!
Location: Somewhere, out there...

Total posts: 587
Posted:Written by: TinklePants

Sadly, its the ones that succeed that cannot be helped, and normally there were no signs that he or she was about to take their own life.
There is a fine line between the two and it gets blurred alot.
The suicides that are "successful" are normally committed by selfish people. not caring how their death will affect others around them.




Its true that with most cases there are no signs whether that person was going to take their life. I believed my friend was on the road to recovery and she hadnt done anything in over a year, until I got that dreaded call one night to tell me that she had shot herself. It was seriously a shock to the system.

As for suicides that are done by selfish people, no offence Tink, but I don't really believe thats mostly true. When you are in a state like that, you cant think and you just go numb. You dont know whats right or wrong anymore and all you can think about is ending the pain. My friend loved her friends & family, she was the most loving and caring person I knew. She didnt want to hurt anyone, she just wanted to end the pain that was caused by her past. I was angry at first about her death but I realised that she's in a better place where she doesnt feel pain anymore.

The thing that really gets me mad is when people tell everyone that they want to commit suicide but would never dream of doing it, just because they want attention. No offence to anyone, its just that I know people who do that, and then talk about suicide like its a joke. Suicide is a very sensitive subject for me.

Star, I truly hope that things will work out for the best hug


It may be your sole purpose in life to serve as a warning to others

Founder and Official leader of the Curby Clan

*Owner of Brenn*

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Sethis
I'm definately not launching into personal attacks, I'm questioning what you said in your post. When I feel like calling you a g!t then I'll tell you in no uncertain terms wink biggrin



umm well reading your post I cannot help the impression as that you are trying to verbally ambush me...

Written by: sethis
Thanks for the dedication, man.
According to you, then I should have said "Here's the number of a psychologist, stay the hell away from me."(...)
Accuse me of "Caring too much" and "Paying too much attention to attention seekers" all you want. I'm not going to walk away from a friend in need.



WHERE do you find this in my post? umm

Just to get this out of the way before back to topic: You're trying to paint a strange picture of me, Sir. Others have tried before and may have succeeded with it at some point to some people - I couldn't care less. OF YOU... I would have not expected that. If my comment and PERSONAL advice might have hurt your feelings - I'm sorry... shrug but IMO this does not alter the validity of my comments. Your previous posts have proven your intelligence - in this one I guess you got carried away... umm

Back to topic: May I please advise you to scroll back to the initial post and the underlying reason? We're talking about a "User" here and we're talking about about someone who's "Sorry that his attempt was not successful"...

Your advice to the general audience is to step into a situation like such and "try"? Please... confused

Certainly I'm NOT giving you the "avatar" or "saint" - bonus you're might be trying to claim here. Your experience might have been successful (for now) - but generally speaking: how many are out there, less gifted than you? And end up being a nutcase themselves ever after because they are accusing themselves for the failure?

Your example is... sorry:

Written by: sethis
I have been a "wannabe helper". I have made friends with someone who had attempted suicide in the past, and still had problems self harming. There was every chance they might try again. According to you, then I should have said "Here's the number of a psychologist, stay the hell away from me." I didn't. I've stayed good friends with them for over 9 months, talking to them more or less every day, looking at their arms every time I saw them, seeing how the scars were getting less and less, and smaller and smaller as time went by. Finally they stopped altogether. The person had no professional help (through their own preference) and only had me and 1 other "real" friend to talk to. Their family (or what passes for it) didn't, and still doesn't know.



a) you made friends with someone who attempted suicide IN THE PAST... your choice...
In the underlying case we're talking about something different, no?
b) You made effort and spent time and attention for 9 months, while
c) this person had no professional help (through their own choice)... confused

Excuse me, Sir, but this person is exactly what I call an "energy-sucker"... NOT BY INTENTION, maybe... there is no "guilt" or "blame" in this - again... Do not start to get off on this one, ok?
This person declines professional help (for other than financial reasons)?... umm

d) the family (or what passes for it)... umm didn't and still doesn't know... umm

May I (make an) ASS (out of) U (and) ME, that there are problems rooted in the originating family? Problems that remain(ed) untouched? Sir, by the time these problems seriously re-surface and you are not in reach... ? confused

I (personally) have ceased to praise people who are not acting (self-)responsible. I might (in my very own case) not step up the necessary actions - as I'm a blind man - for sure I do not advise anybody: "Go ahead and "try", "maybe" you'll succeed." - (if not shrug at least you tried ubbangel)

confused

This is ... umm

Written by: Sethis
Suicide most often happens in people who are less socially inclined. I.e. People who are depressed enough to contemplate it generally have very few friends they can turn to.



Disagreed: I guess (even though not reading the statistics), that suicide arises also from various causes, such as: bad grades, loss of job/ relationship/ a loved one/ continuous drug ABuse, etc.

My statements might sound contradictory to you, hence:

I have to follow a certain principle in life (you might or might not follow it - your choice)...

- levelled as a rescue diver I have to clearly and quickly get the point of a situation AND stay out of trouble while doing the rescue - otherwise there are suddenly TWO people in serious need of attention

- "oxygenmask"-principle: Pull it over yourself, before you help others...

I have no compassion for "martyrs" (even though widely acknowledged) who totally neglect their surroundings and responsibilities (family and children for say) - "for these 15 minutes of fame"... you may or may not be able to "buy" your way through the pearly gates with what you have done - please do not expect any applause from me.

I will (too) not turn my back on anyone in need (friend or not) but to be able to help I have to try getting an overlook of what I'm dealing with FIRST - "Stop" then I will try to estimate WHAT I can do to help "Think" and finally I will do what is necessary and within my powers "Act" (and remember to breathe)...

Written by: sethis
Now that they are somewhat better, the person has said that without me, the odds were about 60-40 in favour that they would have tried suicide again. They didn't. And now, hopefully, they can try to regain some kind of social life, make new friends and move on from a dark episode in their life. They know I took a risk to reach out to them, and they appreciate it. I know that now they would do the same for me. Friends. That's what the word means.



I hope with you that in the long run you've been successful!

To all of you out there:

Love and Light
ubblove grouphug ubbidea

May your days be filled with enough laughter and joy wink

peace

---------------------------------------------

"The death of a man is less his very own problem...."


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Lucidity

If you make your posts long and rambling then they will take on meanings other than those you meant.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Latin lucidus, from lux 'light' + -id.

Adjective
lucid

clear; easily understood
mentally rational; sane
bright, luminous, translucent or transparent

Synonyms
clear
coherent
fluent
perspicuous
straightforward

...Thanx Jeff - I'll bear that in mind for the future...

Yet in my limited mind I find it extremely hard to express myself in 637 characters - especially if the topic is so complex as "rape" or "suicide"... I find this more suiteable in "Social Chat", than in "Discussion. My initial posts have been short(er), but the meaning went missing and got misunderstood... I guess not only by Sethis... so I have a right and even obligation to clarify to the general audience... don't you think? Maybe consider PM???


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:It's only a clarification if it's clear. Keep on topic and cease assuming that every disagreement is a personal attack.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:PM? PM? PM? you know thers a button for it! ubblol

And an attack I only take personal if this person knows me personally and even then... smile hug smile

Hapopy new year to you, too smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Well FireTom, I'm arguing you, not calling you names or insulting your parentage. I'm just arguing against the points and advice that you give in your posts. I'm attacking your ideas, not you as a person. You're welcome to attack mine, that's what a debate is. Personal attacks would be me saying "I can't believe you said that, you're such a f***tard!". Debating is me saying "I disagree with you because of this, this and this. Quite strongly."

I took issue with your advice that you were giving. That's why I'm arguing with it.

Written by: FireTom

WHERE do you find this in my post? umm




That's not in quote marks, so it is not a quote. Therefore it was not in your post literally. I was summing up what appears to be your attitude, which is, as I have already stated:

Written by: FireTom

keep the f***k out of it as much as possible!




This is not an attitude I would like to see in a "friend" of mine.

Written by: FireTom

Your advice to the general audience is to step into a situation like such and "try"?




No. I'll say that again for clarity. NO.

I have never said that I was giving advice to anyone. I have outlined my personal experiences on the subject, but not once have I said that I think everyone should do the same. However you have said:

Written by: FireTom

keep the f***k out of it as much as possible! (my personal advice)




I find the fact that you are advocating abandoning a friend, to anyone and everyone who might have similar problems to be improper and maybe slightly egotistic (sorry, slight personal attack there, but I can't think of another way to put it). Offering advice to people without knowing the exact circumstances can only lead to bad advice, and consequently bad actions. That's why I didn't offer any advice in my own post, because I don't know who will read this and what their situations are. I'd hate to have someone read what I say and think "That's a nifty idea, I'll try it" only to find they make the situation worse.

Written by: FireTom

Certainly I'm NOT giving you the "avatar" or "saint" - bonus you're might be trying to claim here.




I'm not trying to claim anything of the sort. I'm saying honestly that I have helped someone. If that makes me egotistic and bombastic then sorry for stating fact. Would you accuse a doctor of fishing for a label when s/he saves someone's life? Would you accuse voluntary youth workers of fishing for praise when they mention their occupation to someone? I don't think you would.

Simple statement of fact: I had a friend in trouble. I helped them.

I'm not saying this is unusual or magnificently selfless on my part. I expect (but after your posts I'm forced to reconsider) that everyone who has a friend would do the same for their friends. Helping each other is something that I thought everyone does, so there is no element of blowing my own horn here.

Written by: FireTom

you made friends with someone who attempted suicide IN THE PAST... your choice...




To clarify: They attempted suicide in the "preliminary" stages of our friendship, where you talk to each other a bit, and you send each other a few emails, but you're not exactly going to invite them round for the week. I didn't find out about it until a few months later. And yes it was my choice. I'm not sure what you're implying by that.

Written by: FireTom

b) You made effort and spent time and attention for 9 months, while
c) this person had no professional help (through their own choice)...




Yes. I spent time and effort making them feel loved. So sue me. Let me spell it out for you:

They did not want "Help" because that would necessitate them telling their parent about it. (Because to visit a counsellor would mean making regular excuses as to why they had to get a lift into town, which was only available through the parent)

The parent was the major problem.

They also did not want "Help" because then they would be labelled as "Crazy", even if the label was only in their own perception, and no-one else's.

Written by: FireTom

May I ASSUME, that there are problems rooted in the originating family?




Yes.

Written by: FireTom

Problems that remain(ed) untouched?




No.

You think I don't know anything about basic medicine? You treat the cause, not the symptoms. What do you think I spent all this time doing? I've been doing my best to improve the family relationship as much as I can. And I can say this honestly: IT DIDN'T WORK. There are some things you can't change, and some things are between other people. BUT they have now moved out of home. They are living in their own accomodation (for the past few weeks), and no longer have the multitude of everyday problems associated with living at home.

Imagine sharing a room (at the age of 17) with your 12 year old sister. Imagine getting up at 5am just to get to school. Imagine getting home at 7pm every day from school and not being able to either get a job (to get money) or go out to friend's houses because you have to stay in to babysit your siblings. Imagine getting bullied at school every day for 6 years, unable to have a social life because you have no time to go places outside of school. These are some of the... umm... mundane problems.

I know by some standards that's not a bad life. They have a roof, 4 walls and they won't starve to death. Unfortunately life isn't that easy. There might be starving people in India who have *real* problems, but I'll hope you know what I mean when I say the mental health of my friend means more to me. Else I'd be spending that "time and energy" volunteering to help a charity organisation. I don't. So sue me.

Written by: FireTom

I (personally) have ceased to praise people who are not acting (self-)responsible.




You're accusing me of being irresponsible? How so? I said *I* would sleep better knowing I tried. I made no other reference to how other people might feel because I don't know how they would feel. I have a unique mindset. So do you. So does my friend. So do we all. Therefore we all have different reactions to events. Some people may break into hysterics at a funeral. Others will never shed a tear. Some people will, when trapped in a burning building, panic and run for their lives. Others will freeze and not move. Still others will try to save the baby on the top floor. We're all different, which is why I give no advice. I offer my experience, that's all.

Written by: FireTom

I have no compassion for "martyrs" (even though widely acknowledged) who totally neglect their surroundings and responsibilities (family and children for say) - "for these 15 minutes of fame"... you may or may not be able to "buy" your way through the pearly gates with what you have done - please do not expect any applause from me.




I've addressed this, and re-iterating it just makes me angry. I'm not fishing for labels, so stop saying that's what I'm doing. I'm arguing against your standpoint that you should run from people with suicide issues.

I'm a diver too, so I understand what you're saying. The advice is practical and safe. However sometimes those rules just don't apply. What happened to good old fashioned "Help at all costs"? What happened to risking your life to save a friend? What happened to considering other people *before* you?

Right now, I have 4 friends I would die for. Literally. You don't know me, so maybe I can't explain it for you, but I'd like to think I'm an honourable person. That includes saving someone regardless of personal danger. So can you see, from my viewpoint, that if I am willing to give my life to save the life of someone I love (as a friend) then giving my emotional attachment is a relatively small price?

Or maybe I'm too idealistic for my own good. Maybe I read too much heroic fantasy, and outmoded concepts of honour have no place in society. But...

Given the choice between fighting a Hydra alone, and having someone by your side, which would you prefer? (And that's a conscious analogy between a Hydra and Depression)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Dear Sethis,

again - I didn't take any as a personal attack.

I read and read your posts and so far I have always considered them very well thought and articulated. I acknowledge that you're not "fishing" for labels on any level - even if this is hard with the avatar you chose (as in my personal case I do have certain labels for the image that's used there, but more about it later) this would also be the case, if you'd use Maos image, or Ghandis. Please excuse, I'm still young and far from perfect.

You might attack my ideas and it's your pristine right to do so if you disagree. Nobody (including me) would and could ever take this away from anyone (I hope).

My point is (especially in the mentioned case) that as long as someone denies his "obligation to live" - and there is no real "obligation" that's the whole point of this thread... as long as they do so by their own choice (on what grounds and motifs ever) they are prone to "suck" other people who are not emotionally stable enough into their drag.

Would or would you not agree on this?

So my personal advice to the general audience is to keep away as far as possible, sometimes even to run away! A totally legal action IMO.

See, all that you were doing is to sum up the impression my words left with you and put it into a statement :fullstop: this I consider unfair, because this is your personal impression and not what I have said...

I will shortly start a thread of what or what a friend not is and we can certainly argue there. This thread is about suicide and the law and I was offering advice in the actual situation... I was rendering personal advice - sue me. shrug

You are dispensing your experience - I am practically offering my advice... are you right and I am wrong?

OK I understand now, that you're not advising anyone to step into such situation and do what you have done for your friend, but it surely sounded as if you would - by the wording you chose... wink

I am not advocating to abandon a friend (under which definition ever) if you have read my following posts carefully I stated that I will help anyone in need by my very abilities.

I have found the descriptions of the specific circumstances proper enough to come to a personal conclusion... sue me

Whoever (in this case maybe .:star:.) reads this will understand: "What is he talking about? Who is he in the first place? I will do as I resonate upon this."... Same as with your personal experience...

This is how we find conclusions in times of problems (long term) - in the very moment we act instinctively (maybe you scroll to my initial post? - Thanks!) We learn through trial and error... In this case "error" means loosing some friend - would or would you not agree upon this? Personally I consider friends far to valuable to try my amateur skills of healing in a life threatening situation - when there is plenty of professional help available! A doctors profession and purpose is to save lives! Now we can start another thread with the theme "Why do some people become doctors and others cops, or workers of the the MTA?" In here it's offtopic wink

Please do not ass-u-me me to promote mainstream thinking, just because of the conditioned good and evil... wink

-----------------
I never pretended to be a nice guy...
-----------------

Written by: Sethis
Simple statement of fact: I had a friend in trouble. I helped them.



Good on ya... you and also .:star:. got my applause no?

hug

You choose to step into a relationship with someone you find out in the early stages to be suicidal - I didn't and will not accuse you of "helpers syndrome" what right and grounds would I have to? But in the underlying "case" (do I repeat myself?... scrolls back...) it is about a (already) befriended MATE suddenly coming up with something like this! There is no choice of stepping into a relation/friendship, as it's already present!

I am certainly NOT sueing you... hug

So tell me Sethis, due to your help the problem is solved? The relationship within the family is proper now? I read the "case"/ "example" you're giving and YES to many it would be a REAL problem - also for me!

Hence to hide the problem from the parent might only have ben the solution HERE and NOW! In the long end it's not a solution, but to push the issue away - it will re-surface! I do not say that visiting a shrink is the one and only solution - nowhere you will find this...

One get's off that my posts are not lucid enough - but I can't put it all into one sentence... oh, no... wrong...

I put it in exactly one word... (self)ubblove - not narcisstic, not egoistic... not neurotic...

So your help didn't work, but the problem is solved... ?confused?

I could tell you about my life and my school days and how I was living my life - --- - dude, I'm speaking from my own personal experience

Written by: Sethis
Unfortunately life isn't that easy.



Yeah right!

Written by: Sethis
You're accusing me of being irresponsible? How so?



confused Where do I say that? hug

You offer your experience - I offer my advice... You are sueing me not more or less than I sue you... shrug

Written by: Sethis
What happened to the good old fashioned "Help at all costs"? What happened to risking your life to save a friend? What happened to considering other people *before* you?



Yes Sethis, tell me - what happened to it?

Written by: Gsus
"Love thy neighbour (in this case my friend) as you love thyself..."



Do you get my point a little clearer now? or are you still confused.............?

Dear Sethis, you are using the Avatar of "Obi Wan Kenobi" - unfortunately I do not know "why" - but for sure, along with what you have to say: do you not believe that people will add a little more weight into your "experience" and draw conclusions from what you have to say? And therefore "advice"? umm wink

Written by: Sethis
Given the choice between fighting a Hydra alone, and having someone by your side, which would you prefer? (And that's a conscious analogy between a Hydra and Depression)



I would maybe choose.... :thinking: you!

But with about 98% of the people I met so far, with my personal experience: I would rather fight it alone... shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1785
Posted:Written by: firetom
May I please advise you to scroll back to the initial post and the underlying reason? We're talking about a "User" here and we're talking about about someone who's "Sorry that his attempt was not successful"...



When you say "user" are you meaning drug user? The incident on New Years Eve was the first time in years that my friend had used drugs, he only did it because he was offered the chance and thought 'why not, i'm going to die soon anyway' He is not someone who has been having troubles because of drugs. His depression partly because of the loss of his father a few years ago, a realationship breakdown and a rather unsupportive family.

I have known a lot of people who have been attention seekers, doing silly things to make people feel sorry for them. I have also had friends who have become far too dependant on drugs and it has ruined their lives. I understand that in situations like this it is often best to step back and not get sucked into down into their world but not without letting them know that if they want help then i am there for them. If they decided to try and sort out their lives i will be a friend and stand by them.

I have often found that if you tell someone that you are fed up of their drugs/drinking/attention seeking and you don't want to be part of their life unless they try and sort it out, it is often what they need to see what they have been doing and that they need to change.

What really bothers me is that the people who tell everyone they want to commit suicide to get attention, makes it really difficult for the people with genuine suicidal thoughts to try and get help. On the rare occasions that really sucidal people try and get help it is often not taken seriously because of other people 'crying wolf' all the time.


---------------------------------

I would like to thank everyone who has sent me PMs over the last few days, your supportive words have really helped. I am so grateful to be part of such a caring community. I would like to reply to them all personally but there have been so many and i've not had much time, i will reply to them all soon. Thank you everyone hug hug grouphug


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So in the US a physician (any physician) may commit a patient to an inpatient psychiatric unit for a fixed period of time (usually 72 hours) by signing a commitment order which is a legal document. In doing so the physician assumes legal responsibility for stating that the patient is at reasonable risk of causing harm to herself or to others because of her psychiatric/psychological state. Commitment may happen because of activie suicidality/homocidality or because the patient is unable to care for herself (i.e. an acute psychosis or mania).

I personally support this because I feel that suicide is usually a manifestation of a disease (depression, either unipolar or bipolar). There are exceptions, such as a terminally ill patient who desires death over suffering and I support suicide (but not physician-assisted suicide) in those cases. I also support palliative end-of-life care in those cases even if the palliative therapy might shorten the patient's lifetime (i.e. a morphine drip in a patient dying of respiratory failure).

Ultimately suicide need not be criminalized, but simply because the patient is not physically ill does not mean that she might not have a fatal disease. We would treat any other potentially fatal disease aggressively.

The difference is that in the case of depression, a manifestation of the disease is the fact that the patient loses the ability to make good decisions.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:OK, thanks Tom, now we know we're not personally attacking each other in any way. I'd like to get rid of the less important stuff first I.e. My choice of avatar.

I've had this avatar ever since I joined HoP last year, and it hasn't changed. I didn't pick it because of any deep emotional/mental connotations it had for me. I picked it because (as you may pick up on in some of my "Chat" posts) I really like Star Wars, Jedi and Lightsabers. With the exception of Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi, Qui-Gon Jin is the coolest Jedi I've seen yet. Maybe by picking him to represent me, then I might be saying any number of things. I might be saying that I'm like him. I might be saying I admire him. I might be saying I like his haircut. It doesn't really matter. What are you saying about yourself? That you're confusing and difficult to make sense of? ubblol wink

I never accused you of being perfect wink but I'm also young: 18. Make of it what you will.

Written by: FireTom

they are prone to "suck" other people who are not emotionally stable enough into their drag.




Yes! I agree!! What you failed to mention before was the quantifying statement people who are not emotionally stable enough. And by that I assume you mean not emotionally stable enough to take on additional burdens, rather than not emotionally stable enough full stop. I agree entirely that people can get dragged down very easily, and you should be very careful to avoid that happening. What I'm saying is that I was confident that I *was* emotionally stable enough to cope with the added strain of worrying about 2 people rather than just me.

Written by: FireTom

are you right and I am wrong?




Yes. Can we stop arguing now? wink biggrin

Written by: FireTom

This is how we find conclusions in times of problems (long term) - in the very moment we act instinctively (maybe you scroll to my initial post? - Thanks!) We learn through trial and error... In this case "error" means loosing some friend - would or would you not agree upon this?



I withold comment because I'm not certain what you're actually saying. Could you clarify? You seem to clash "The very moment" with "Long term" problems... I'm slightly confused.

Written by: FireTom

Personally I consider friends far to valuable to try my amateur skills of healing in a life threatening situation - when there is plenty of professional help available!



umm Well I've got two responses to this:

1. You're trying to give the impression that I don't care enough about my own friends to seek "Proper" or "Professional" help for them. I find that insulting. That may or may not have been your intent. shrug

2. I've given the reasons why my friend was unable to see a professional. I am telling you now that it was not an option at the time. At all. Full stop. Do I really need to restate that?

So you either tried to insult me, misread my post, or ignored it completely. Please tell me which of these (if any) it was. Or explain what you meant by the statement.

Written by: FireTom

So tell me Sethis, due to your help the problem is solved? The relationship within the family is proper now? I read the "case"/ "example" you're giving and YES to many it would be a REAL problem - also for me!

Hence to hide the problem from the parent might only have ben the solution HERE and NOW! In the long end it's not a solution, but to push the issue away - it will re-surface!




No, the problem is not solved, at least not entirely. There are still problems. There might always be problems. Like I said, there are some things you can't fix. But it's better. My friend is no longer contemplating suicide, and it's been months since they hurt themselves. ALSO I have (hopefully) helped guide them through a difficult period of time, their GCSEs and the start of their AS Levels (which started in September), which necessitated going to a different college. Like I said, they had to meet new people and live in a new school. After being bullied for years it's difficult. *I* know that from my own experience.

I have no illusions that I've made their life all fine and dandy. For all I know, when I lose contact with them then they'll just slide right back into depression. Maybe they will kill themselves. I know the family problems aren't going to get better in our lifetime, but I've helped my friend believe that they can get over what they've been through, that they are a wonderful human being, and that life after A-Levels is SO superior. All they have to do is hang in there. And I'll be there to help with any problems they might have when they hit Uni. They know that, and it's given them a reason to live.

Written by: FireTom


Written by: Sethis

You're accusing me of being irresponsible? How so?




Where do I say that?





Right here:

Written by: FireTom

I (personally) have ceased to praise people who are not acting (self-)responsible. I might (in my very own case) not step up the necessary actions - as I'm a blind man - for sure I do not advise anybody: "Go ahead and "try", "maybe" you'll succeed." - (if not shrug at least you tried ubbangel)




Or were you *not* criticising what you percieved to be my advice? What then were you criticising? Clarify please?

Written by: FireTom

Yes Sethis, tell me - what happened to it?




umm You're not answering my question. From my point of view, I see the "Help at all costs" attitude to be a beneficial aspect of friendship. I was implying that you seemed to lack an understanding of that attitude. For the third or fourth time: Do you, or do you not, see a contradiction between these statements?

Written by: FireTom

stay the f*** away!




and

Written by: FireTom

I will help anyone in need (to the best of my?) very abilities.




To me, you are saying "I refuse to help you because I risk getting dragged down myself" in the first statement. In the second you are saying "I will help you all I can". Can't you see how contradictory that is? Either you help them personally or you don't. I'll explain my perception of your attitude by an imaginary dialogue:

Friend: "I'm feeling suicidal/really down. Can you help me?"

You: "Sure I can, here's the name of a really good psychologist who'll help you." (This is good advice! And also what I would recommend.)

F: "I don't want to/can't go see him/her. I really need your help."

You: "Well, I'm not qualified to help you... And I'm worried that you'll drag me down too." (Not so good, IMO, because you're distancing yourself right when they need to feel close to someone.)

F: Oh, right. Bye.

If that's not how you would essentially treat the situation, what is? Because that's what my reading of your reaction would be.

Written by: FireTom

people will add a little more weight into your "experience"




Are you implying that I'm making this up? Do I have to introduce you to my friend to convince you? I can do that. If that's not what you're saying, then what is? Please be careful how you phrase things, because I hate trying to ascertain people's tone of voice when they use "" in text and are NOT quoting. It could be anything from a technical term to sarcasm.

Written by: FireTom

98% of the people I met so far, with my personal experience: I would rather fight it alone...



That's because:

Written by: Pixar Film (Toy Story?)

You ain't never had a friend like me!




Sorry... bowing to ego there wink tongue *gets poked with a pointy stick*

But I'm sure you know what I mean, you can snap a hundred threads easily, but weave them into a rope and they're indestructible.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:FireTom and Sethis; could you consider dealing with your conflict by PM?



This thread was started by someone who's just been through a very stressful experience, and has become a highly supportive thread, and one with lots of well thought out advice for potential future readers.



Given that the long and detailed, and occasionally emotionally heated, points and counter points you're making are of interest primarily to you two, and probably of no interest to the majority of others viewing this thread, I really do think you'd do better to handle it by PM.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Well I haven't yet taken it to PMs because I do feel that going over the arguments both for and against various issues surrounding suicide is helpful. The amount of involvement you should have, where you draw the line, who needs to know, how you can help... I think all of these things are relevant.

We're not trying to be disrespectful. We're both very sympathetic to .:star:. and her friend. I know I've had similar experiences, not sure about Tom.

However if anyone else thinks we're just taking up lots of space gassing about things unimportant, then I'll gladly move off and leave it open for people with more... dedicated advice.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:OK Sethis....



how could I outsmart "Obi Wan"? PM on the way tonight... smile



But in public: to indicate that I am neither sympathetic to .:star:. nor have personal experience with suicide-endangered people is offensive - you'll be spanked for this wink



Seriously this is what I call "unfair", not suiteable and south of my belly-meridian... Happened before - will most likely happen again (especially Iif I don't follow mainstream thinking). Take my posts apart, put them back together as you like and then - in public - accuse me of saying something I haven't said... feel good about it. You want to turn me into a politician or to shut up?

Sethis: sorry, but you should (too) sober your ego from NYE's party before "ot personally" attacking someone... re-read my posts and you will not find this kind of information anywhere!



confused



Suicide and the law: I personally think there should be means to protect citizens from themselves for the time being.



@.:Star:. - I wonder that your friend could not be helped by police, or medical... wereas being put in a madhouse for attempting suicide and treated with psycopharmaceutica is really not what I consider "helping".



But in the initially mentioned case: The cops can put you in jail for being heavily intoxicated and a potential threat (to society) until you're sobered up. I would really be interested of the opinion of a lawyer on this - in Germany we have an offence which is called: "decline to assist" or such - meaning if you had the opportunity and ability to help someone and you (for no valid reason) refused to help, you can be sued. THIS would certainly apply for the cops... IMO



To repeat my initial statement: hug I feel sorry for you and your friend... it's sad that he did the wrong decision intoxicating himself and you have been doing the right thing instinctively. I hope he's better and that you will not loose someone dear one or the other way.



Besides all personal support that you are providing I hope that he's seeking counselling. The problem with loosig his dad seems to be having deep effects and I know it's hard to loose someone for all times, never be able to communicate to them and say all the things one would have wanted to...



Life is not nice sometimes... the best advice for him might be to stay away from drugs (also in the future) - if he hasn't learned it by experience yet...



hug



PS: Sorry to all :bows into the round: I was mixing up the Jedis here... of course Sethis' avatar is NOT Obi Wan, but Qui-Gon Jin redface



PPS: Thanks for the silent support that those provided who got not carried away by misinterpretation of my posts. I can understand that you keep out of this one... I should have followed my new years resolution to stay off emotionally stressful discussions.

hug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1136534807)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Lost83spy
BRONZE Member since Sep 2005

Lost83spy

Out! Out! You demons of stupidity!
Location: Somewhere, out there...

Total posts: 587
Posted:Gee, was wondering when the Sethis/FireTom debate was going to end! It got a little too much there for a second...

Its really funny how things work. Yesterday morning I was on here, posting about suicide and then my neighbour down the road took his own life an hour after I got home from work. He shot himself in the head while his wife and kids were outside by the swimming pool.

I didnt know him all that well, but it made me feel so sad. Maybe because it brought up bad memories (my friend did the same), maybe because I felt so bad for the family, I dont know. It just left an unsettling feeling inside me for the rest of the night, and I even dreamt of my cousin dying (he's ok, dont worry). Suicide is something that really affects me, and definately affects others too.

Something that JonnyRok said to me last night kinda made sense: "These things happen, and there's nothing we can really do, except pray that things will turn out ok". We can only do so much for our friends, just be there for them.


It may be your sole purpose in life to serve as a warning to others

Founder and Official leader of the Curby Clan

*Owner of Brenn*

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: FireTom

But in public: to indicate that I am neither sympathetic to .:star:. nor have personal experience with suicide-endangered people is offensive




Where do I state that? I literally said:

Written by: Me

We're both very sympathetic to .:star:. and her friend.




I meant you and me...

The "I'm not sure about Tom" was regarding your own personal experiences with suicide. I wasn't sure you'd had any close personal experience of a friend trying to kill themselves, because if you have, then you haven't said so.

Sorry you misunderstood me. smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:offtopic



Written by: Sethis


Disrespect is not a verb. PLEASE don't contribute to the decay of the English language by using it as such. You mean you weren't saying it to be *disrespectful*. I'm not picking on you specifically, but god that use of the word annoys me.





this pet hate is something i have never understood...



'respect' is clearly a transative verb so i don't see why 'disrespect' shouldn't be too?



*goes and looks for some backup*



yep - the oed agrees that it is a verb biggrin



in fact, it seems that it was one of the few words that appeared in english as a verb BEFORE it appeared as a noun.



so you can stop accusing people of 'decaying the english language' when they are using words correctly now tongue ubbangel wink



[/offtopic]





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:[comes back from the backyard with a smile on his face]

phew - I'm happy to have sorted it out with Sethis. smile

Sure I won't decline help to a friend, but when I see that this goes beyond my limits - and helped as far as I can - I have to turn away. And sorry I was not only talking about emotionally unstable people.

I am repeating it: to try amateur skills of healing on a friend who is in a life threatening mental situation - without any support from a counsellor is not what I would recommend.

I personally have spent 8 month with a borderliner, who was threatening to commit suicide more than once and I administered all of the energy I could possibly raise. I got sucked into a very deep and dark hole and spent another 6 month to halfway recover from it. It's not fun and in the end not successful.

Blame me for this if you want. But as I do love my friends I would certainly NOT want them to sacrifice their lives for me, or to step well beyond their limits to rescue me. Period. I hope this is OK with you... ?!

I'm far from perfect, still I say what I have to say. If that is disturbing - shrug what to do? shut up?

Do I have to tell everyone the story of my life to manifest a statement? Well I'll consider to expand my profile here on HoP and may tell everyone to read it first, before attempting to drag me into the twilight-zone... confused

@.:star:. I understand the cops didn't want to/ couldn't help. You may have read my post reg. "denial of assistance" (being an offence in Germany... everyone - also cops - can be held responsible for)

Is it really true fact, that the cops couldn't do anything, or did they just not bother?!?

In my personal experience: Cops don't necessarily KNOW the law - hence they enforce it... Thats what I'd call contradictory...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Lost83Spy, i'm really sorry to hear that. It makes me think, "what if you'd told your wife how you felt?" maybe she could have helped you.
We never know what goes on inside the minds of others. x


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:So true Jo, we never know what is going on in the mind of others. Worse yet, is when they dont know what is going on in their own mind... Mental illness, suicidal tendancies and depression are terrifying for that very reason. ( at least to me)

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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astar2


member


Total posts: 37
Posted:I know I am banned, But this thread is unsettling me and I again, follow the pattern of evadeing bans to make a post.

A lot of people here have pretty sour and ugly emotions associated with suicide. It is horrible when someone kills themselves. I have been on both sides of the 'coin'. I just want people to know the scariest thing about suicide is it's pretty awfully rare a person actually has control over themselves. Or the ability to think in any way you would associate with normal thought. It's often believed by suicidal people that they are doing a favour to the world, to their loved ones, etc etc. And they can't think any further then that. All I have to say is if you are very hurt and hateful about someone who has hurt you through suicide, Please try to let go of that gut wrenching brew of grief and hatred. It's not fair to let that kind of pain tear you apart because a persons mind was crippled.

Help people who are near the edge when you can, be mindful that if you get to involved you are near the edge yourself, suicidal and extreamly depressed people do need medical help and an enviroment where they can help themselves. I would almost compare the state of mind ive been and and ive seen others in to a coma, or a state of near unconciousness. Should we turn coma patients away from hospitals?
I don't think so.


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Altho not all of the sethis and firetom debate probably needed to be public much of it did because I thought he was saying about the same things sethis did... (my god, sethis and I got the same things out of a post? Is the world coming to an end?) But I admit I'm still relaly unclear on things....
But what I'm unclear on is far too personal to matter to this end.

Star,.... hug Don't drain yourself, follow andrealee, yes.

Now- I would like to say one thing. Altho I think he needed treatment, to get down off the drugs and such, and its a shame he couldn't have it, well....

There are situations where professionals can't help. And where involving them makes things worse. Many of these are in fact minors with severe family problems, I realize. And in some cases professional involvement would really fix things. In most cases I imagine the RIGHT professional involvement could help, but not only is it hard to tell whats right, but worse, everyone stands a very high chance of getting it wrong and making it worse and those are bad odds.

For certain types of people most professional involvement will work. For some types certain types will work. For a few types very few types will work....

Another situation where professionals have a hard time getting involved is when people are very bright. I know quite a handful of really smart and really messed up people who fake it wonderfully... - and are annoyed as hell by mental health professionals. Because, well, a high percentage of even psychiatrists and doctors are stupid. Compared to the top 1% of the population, nevermind the top .01%, etc. So I would look at those two types of situations with a particuarly caoutious mind... and an emotionally stable person with sense is in fact wonderfully better for quite a few people.

To be honest, any really good involved relationship is a lot of effort. You can't sustain too many of them at the same time. And yes, upset people are less short-term rewarding. But that doesn't mean it can't be the right decision. And if its not, its best for both of you that you move on, yes. If you can't make that commitment, or shouldn't, and its many times the case. But forcing unwanted help on someone is bad as well.

Just remember, its not your fault. Drugs aside, people make their own choices, and at the moment, that includes how they treat illnesses (i.e. christian scientists, etc).


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: FireTom
I'm never running away from any friend who is in desperate need of help.

keep the f***k out of it as much as possible!



I help my friends as much as I possibly can, but will not go further. IMO anyone who demands me to die for her/ him is not a real friend.

Sorry that my posts have (again) not been put in a fashion to suit everyones understanding... a lesson to be learned. meditate

I'd like to repeat my question: Is it true that in the UK, neither the cops nor the medics can do anything in the above described case? In Germany they can hold you for up to 6 weeks.

If it's true that in the UK you cannot do anything - you guys have to do serious work on it! shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Hairy Tait
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

Hairy Tait

member
Location: Back in the Future

Total posts: 109
Posted:Written by: jo_rhymes

Written by: Hairy Tait


anyone who lets their friends know they want to do it,(commit suicide) is:
a) Crying out for help
.b) Attention seeking
.c) being completely selfish



*............AND........*



but people who are just a bit unhappy.... either do yourself in and amke all the people who love you devastated at your death



I find these comments offensive.
The utter desperation before an act of suicide is not selfish or attention seeking.
I've spoken to many people who all agree that when suicidal tendencies take over, you feel like you have no control. it is really really scary.
I agree that the best option is to speak to a loved one about how you feel, however this is so difficult and to a depressed person, loved ones won't want to know anyway.
An act of suicide can seem like a gesture of kindness "doing away with a burden" that kind of thing.
A suicidal person isn't trying to seek attention, but think about it, if someone is willing to overdose or slit their wrists, perhaps they need attention? Perhaps they need someone listen to their cries for help? hug



Not my intention to offend....but you're taking my comments out of context...

Most people who are genuinely suicidal don't go shouting about it... they maintain a calm and happy facade ( in my experience ) until one day you find them dead in a bath.....

People who don't really want to kill themselves but are maybe a bit sad and make an ostentatious display of being so, whilst telling their friends they are going to kill themselves are attention seekers....

As soon as someone tells you they're going to commit suicide, I would say you're morally obligated not to let them, because the've fundamentally asked you to do this.... In some cases this is unfair to do that to your friends....

A friend of mine committed suicide a few years ago, she was one of the Happiest people i knew........

Again though... i have veered off topic....

You will not be able to stop someone from killing themselves if they are determined to do it.... You should stop anyone who tells you they might... because i believe they don't really want to.....


The girl who started this thread... Star..? Beth...? I believe you acted admirably... you saved your friends life... but they have been very unfair to you... they need profesional help...


It's a very interesting story, Future Boy....!

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Astar2, brilliant comment, I completely agree with you.
Hairy tait, sorry we got our wires crossed. I thought you meant someone who was genuinely suicidal who let their friends know how they felt was just attention seeking.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend who commited suicide. I do agree with astar2 that when people are in that frame of mind, they really aren't thinking straight and aren't "themselves".
i've been there and I know there's not been an ounce of "jo" in me.


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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