Forums > Social Discussion > English Spelling, Grammar, and Punctuation

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MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
We had a "pedantic" thread back a while ago where the goal was to write whatever...as long as it was in perfect grammatically correct English.

We're not asking for that.

But for many readers of this board, English is not their first language. And for some of us, who learned to read and write properly wink it's very difficult to decipher a mess of gibberish with no punctuation, abbreviations up the wazoo (eg: "u shud cum 2 my house im havin a partee coz its my birfday an well get v drunk"), and spelling that is...original.

Now I grant this isn't my high school Honors English class, but PLEASE have the decency to at least try to use correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar? Really, we all learned these basics in (forgive me) grammar school.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


fNiGOLD Member
master of disaster
3,354 posts
Location: New York, USA


Posted:
Would you say that there's a link between those brain processes that cause for dfficulty reading/writing and that cause people to switch letters from two words when they're speaking?

Something like "floor rug" becomes "roor flug"? I don't mean an occasional transposition, but a habitual thing.

Possibly offtopic , but its an interesting question.

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Again I have to disagree with you doc - and hope it's not turning into a habit... redface hug

.... let alone that some people here are actually (cape)able to handle more than just one language (i.e. 2 - their native and additionally "English") and this would be ONE language more than I have experienced most "Anglos" handling in my personal history of travelling for 20 years... eek

I'd rather give some attention to the content - however controversy... wink

IMO (in my opinion) I'd rather follow a good thinking poorly formulated than vice versa (the other way round)... ubbangel

If you and others here have troubles in identifying the con-/intent of the post - if you bother - you may verify, or otherwise you can just continue to ignore it as you are able to ignore well articulated posts. So why not badly... confused

Remember: You're in an international forum! If you want to communicate internationally, accept the fact that you will have to stumble across some less articulate people who actually bother to communicate with you and the rest of the world! They make the effort as you do... and maybe you rember: 280 million yanks + 32 million frozen yanks + 60 million pommies + 20 million aussies + 4 million kiwis = 396 million are amongst 6 billion!!!.. which is... what? about 5.2% of the international community? (sorry don't have a calculator @ hand)

To put out the verbal "punishment" to (dyslexic) people would make them think twice (and therfore may not post at all) - IMO this would be a loss to this forum... frown

So from me to all you non/articulate-universitydegreeholder-englishspeaking-workingclass-slangusers: c'mon post'it, will ya! hug

PS: but make at least minimal effort to spell it out...
PPS. MintSauce: Your post is actually very helpful -

a) have HoP (HomeOfPoi) window opened and type your post in MS-Word first... with activated grammar and spelling it tells you instantly whether right or not...
b) when finished use "CTRL+A" followed by "CTRL+C" (key combinations that actually save heeps of time)
c) switch to HoP window, click into the Post-window and use "CTRL+V".... therr ya goo biggrin

This is a digital age and computers are able to handle two tasks simultaneously - therefore more than sometimes the human brain is... juggle

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"Freedom" has always to be considered the freedom of the one NOT following your mind... (or something like that B.Brecht said)
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merry merry - hohoho - share the love and spirit of the cristmas holidays... wink

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


SethisBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,762 posts
Location: York University, United Kingdom


Posted:
@Tom: I don't think I've heard anyone attacking people for whom english is not a first language.

The main point seems to be people who CAN speak/write english in a gramatically correct manner, but don't BOTHER to. Lk usin txt spk. There's no point. It may save you a few tenths of a second to type like that, but for people who do not understand it then it can render the post meaningless.

And I would prefer to listen to a controversial opinion WELL expressed over a "normal" opinion BADLY expressed, because someone who argues clearly and coherently is much easier to debate with/reply to. Also, they are obviously more inclined to put more effort into posting than someone who doesn't have the basic courtesy to read through their posts at least once to check for Spelling, Punctuation and Grammar mistakes.

And this is a site written in english, by people for whom english is a first language. The point of making the posts easier to read is to HELP people who may have difficulty reading them. And the fact that most english people only effectively speak english is kinda irrelevant. This is a site written in english. Why do we need to know how to speak french, german, italian or chinese or whatever? I assume anyone posting is going to be speaking in english...

And a LOT more people than you state speak english well as a second language.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


StoutSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Frozen Yanks? Tom, do you mean Canadians? You know our whole national identity hinges on us NOT being American wink

This thread isn't about English as a second language as Sethis says, it's about taking the extra few minutes to ensure that your post is legible by simply clicking that little button at the bottom of the screen that says Check Spelling.

FRD does have a good point, it has gotten a lot better here in the past year and that may be due to a previous thread on this very same topic. Txt spk may be appropriate in a chatroom, but this is not a chatroom, it's a forum and it shouldn't be about how fast you can get your post up on the board.

I can tell the difference between someone who's posting in English as their second language, and someone who just doesn't give a rip and I'll put the time and effort into reading and rereading an esl post.

RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic


Posted:
Read books smile,

:R

POI THEO(R)IST


StoutSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
And then there's the cryptic posts, those that have meaning and content to the writer and maybe a select few who actually understand where the writer is coming from, but leave quite a few of us scratching out heads and asking ourselves if we're missing something.

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Written by: FireTom


Again I have to disagree with you doc - and hope it's not turning into a habit... redface hug

.... let alone that some people here are actually (cape)able to handle more than just one language (i.e. 2 - their native and additionally "English") and this would be ONE language more than I have experienced most "Anglos" handling in my personal history of travelling for 20 years... eek





Tom, I'm bilingual, too. I'm more comfortable writing in English, but I can get by in Spanish.

I'm not asking for perfection and I'm not attacking people who speak English as a second language or who have learning disabilities.

I'm asking native English speakers to TRY to use proper punctuation and spelling, rather than txt spk. This is because there are people on this board who speak English as a second language and they would have difficulty understanding English (a tough enough language to read and write) without punctuation, capitalization, or vowels.

There's a difference between difficulty and laziness.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
ok... smile

For someone who is not so well literate (english first, second and not to speak of others who just have - like for say indonesian, or indian people - two local languages stored in their minds already)... meaning for people who are going along with english "so-so" like for say .. me smile the impression was that you were speaking IN GENERAL terms.

And this would have the mentioned effect and loss for the board, which is made from English speaking - yes.. but not just FOR english speaking, hum? At least then I was having the wrong approach by promoting this site ever since I started to dance with fire to everyone, regardless of their language background.

smile

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


SkulduggeryGOLD Member
Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
8,428 posts
Location: Wales


Posted:
Tom I think you might be missing the point here or I am reading your post incorrectly. If I am feel free to slap me with a kipper. hug

Yes, this is a site written in English, that uses English as the common language. We, as users, are fully aware that not everyone in the world speaks English as thier first language and that others have problems with the written word, whatever language it is written in. What we are trying to say is that for everyone's sake, be they English speakers or not, if we all try to make our posts easier to read it helps everyone out.

If you are a person that has English as a second language it is much easier to look up a word you don't know if the person that posts it spells it correctly.

If English is a persons second language and they make mistakes in there posts, with words or the grammar, I don't think most people on this site are going to moan at them for it. They may tell them that they don't quite understand what they are trying to say and ask them to post clarification.

I, as I stated before, am dyslexic and find the written word quite hard to use. I know if I come across a post that has no punctuation or has lots of text speak (abbreviations) in it I just admit defeat. I can't read it. So, whether the person posting it has a wonderfully valid point to make or not, I won't ever get to know, because it is posted in such a way that I cannot make any sense out of it.

I also know my posts are far from perfect. My Grammar is usually way off and I am sure I quite often make spelling errors, but I do try hard to make what I post readable by others that come to use the boards. For example this post has taken me about 25 mins to write and check. I'm sure if someone went through it they would still find some mistakes, but I have tried to make it understandable.

That's all we ask of people. Try to make your posts as easy to read as possible. That way your words will make sense to more people and your ideas and thoughts will be understood more clearly.

Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!


RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic


Posted:
What about slang, it there any spinning slang words?

:R

POI THEO(R)IST


Mint SauceBRONZE Member
veteran
1,453 posts
Location: Lancs England


Posted:
not just slang we speak a totally different language wink



when I first started poi if I had gone over to the Technical Discussion section and read a few posts I would have walked away from the computer gibbering like a gibbering thing ubbloco ubbloco



even now it takes me a while to absorb some of it.



Even the simple stuff like the 3 beat weave and butterfly I saw stuff like that to people at work and they just give me a strange look. wink



Example (wanders over to poi moves section to find an example of poi language)



Written by: shen shui



hi...



rev ttn, throw the lhp when its beating underneath the rhp, and make the socks tangle over each other at the halfway point (or thereabouts) of the held poi (it doesnt matter as much where you tangle on the other sock, so long as its closer to the handle than halfway) so that the poi swings around the in-air poi and you can catch it again, trapping the knot of the in-air poi so that you can turn n pirouette... and then kinda stall on the up-beat and release the poi head so that the in-air poi becomes thrown, so that you can catch it (or propeller it) (or re-whip catch it (gasp!))...



smile




eek

see straight of something mind bogglingly hard to follow and what was the reply



Written by: oli



sounds like a pretty cool trick smile, must try and get whip catches working.....




eek eek



ok this is a particularly bad example as they have used abbreviations for poi and moves.



But any thread you go in it will be 4 beat this, reverse crossover that, five petal anti spin butterfly flower crossover the other wink biggrin



I think it would be nice if we could all try to make our posts readable that way new people/dyslexic and non English people at least stand a chance of learning the specific language we all speak hug hug



before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)


FireTomStargazer
6,650 posts

Posted:
Written by: Doc Lightning

But for many readers of this board, English is not their first language. And for some of us, who learned to read and write properly wink it's very difficult to decipher a mess of gibberish with no punctuation, abbreviations up the wazoo (eg: "u shud cum 2 my house im havin a partee coz its my birfday an well get v drunk"), and spelling that is...original.

Now I grant this isn't my high school Honors English class, but PLEASE have the decency to at least try to use correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar? Really, we all learned these basics in (forgive me) grammar school.




:humm: i still seem to have difficulties to identify the content, or meaning of this start. I admit, I might be a sloppy reader redface but this was not clearly pointed redface

But to set the record straight: this is neither spank nor mad2 so I guess to appeal for making an effort in general is a good thing...
sorry 4 dat doc' hug

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freddom is just anodda word for nuttin leftaloose

the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


MiGGOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,415 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia


Posted:
*looks*

Why all this copy and paste into word? Why not press the little 'spell check' button?

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


Mint SauceBRONZE Member
veteran
1,453 posts
Location: Lancs England


Posted:
because its not as helpful as word and not as easy to use biggrin

before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)


dani_babybooSILVER Member
addict
667 posts
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
ok re my deliberate spelling of believe/ beleive

when you type away in reply to what you read and especially when i am working and here i dont think hard about my spelling and if i got it the right way round and as for my punctuation i do tend to miss it out a lot

thats why i use line breaks now as when i start a new sentance i just click enter twice

i also have a habbit instead of question marks and exclamation marks i use ..... that as in folow on

sorry
it was not an excuse just trying to say maybe some people cant help it

enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

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EeraBRONZE Member
old hand
1,107 posts
Location: In a test pit, Mackay, Australia


Posted:
A woman without her man is nothing.

or

A woman: without her, man is nothing.

Those little dots make a hell of a difference don't they?

There was a phase when a few people were txt spk-ing which, thankfully, appears to have died out.

It may be grossly unfair but I simply do not take anyone who persistantly makes no effort to spell and punctuate seriously. They may have the most valid and enlightening points to come across, but if they're hard to read then those points simply do not translate into anything other than gibberish.

There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.


VampyricAcidSILVER Member
veteran
1,286 posts
Location: My House, United Kingdom


Posted:
Can I just add,
Their - It belongs to them, "These are their poi, lets go ask them if we can spin!"
There - place, as in "Look it's Doc Lightning over there!"
They're - They Are, as in "Look they're doing antispin flowers, I hate them"

and
'S = it belongs to someone eg "This thread is Doc Lightning's"
OR
'S = shortened IS eg " AAAAAAAAAH IT'S DOC LIGHTNING RUN!!"

Just adding an S makes the word plural, and one Doc Lighting (although we all love him) is enough eg "Doc Lightnings over there"
(sorry to use you as the example mike, but you were the one who started the thread smile)
OOOOH and you should read Eats Shoots and Leaves by Lynne Truss

Proudly Owned By The BMVC

Are You Sniffing My Mitten?


linden rathenGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
ok as a lazy person id like to throw in my 2 cents worth.

i get a lot of stick for my spelling/grammer im not dyslexic, im just lazy and not very good at either.

but spelling and grammer is my personal pet hate - sort of. if the post gets the message across what does it matter if it's missing a few dots dashes etc. in general i dont use txt spk but i do use net speak from time to time (having spent way too much time in chat rooms) i also use phonic abbreviations (eg tho instead of though)

its one think to type a sentance along the lines of
"ttyl cba 2 sty awk" but someone who says "im goin to sleep" isnt making it that hard to read despite not using very good grammer or english (it should be "I am going to sleep")

and yes that was a lame example, but it annoys me a lot to have people bitching about peoples use of shortened words when the message is plain.

all english is is a communications tool and those who get militant about its use are nearly as bad as those who bearly use it at all

(and yes this is one of my better posts but i still dont have capital letters full stops well formed paragraphs or much sentance structure)

oh and in examples such as

"A woman without her man is nothing" yes grammer is important but simple rearrangement makes it clearer for all - especially people who have english as a second language because grammatical contorsions dont make english clear "a man with out a woman is nothing" is easier for everyone

*shuts up* oh and id be interested to see if anyone can re post this in proper english and then we can play spot the mistakes - there are a lot even i can see tongue

back


steaksSILVER Member
former manc tour guide
1,909 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: linden rathen


O.k. as a lazy person id like to throw in my 2 cents worth.

I get a lot of stick for my spelling/grammar Im not dyslexic, Im just lazy and not very good at either.

But spelling and grammar is my personal pet hate - sort of. If the post gets the message across what does it matter if it's missing a few dots, dashes, etc. In general I dont use txt spk but I do use net speak from time to time (having spent way too much time in chat rooms). I also use phonetic abbreviations (e.g. tho instead of though)

Its one thing to type a sentence along the lines of "ttyl cba 2 sty awk"; but someone who says "im goin to sleep" isnt making it that hard to read despite not using very good grammar or English (it should be "I am going to sleep").

And yes that was a lame example, but it annoys me a lot to have people bitching about peoples use of shortened words when the message is plain.

All English is a communications tool and those who get militant about its use are nearly as bad as those who barely use it at all.

(and yes this is one of my better posts, but i still dont have capital letters full stops well formed paragraphs or much sentence structure).

Oh and in examples such as:
"A woman without her man is nothing"; yes grammar is important but simple rearrangement makes it clearer for all - especially people who have english as a second language because grammatical contortions dont make English clear. "A man with out a woman is nothing." is easier for everyone.

*Shuts up* Oh and Id be interested to see if anyone can re-post this in proper english and then we can play spot the mistakes - there are a lot even I can see. tongue




Thats my attempt at re-posting it with everything gramaticaly correct wink

Owned by the lovely SNOOPoi
Owner of Clarence_Quack


dani_babybooSILVER Member
addict
667 posts
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
could have used heavy print in the replacement

enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions


steaksSILVER Member
former manc tour guide
1,909 posts
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom


Posted:
*to dani: I copied it into ms word and used spell check, then proof read, making changes as I went. there were too many changes to highlight them all.


As for the original topic, I have striking similarities to Skully when it comes to writing ability. I have argued since I was in high school that I have a form of dyslexia which only affects my writing ability, I dont have a problem with reading or speaking English just writing. I get confused with how to spell simple everyday words, but dont have much of a problem with longer words. I wouldnt say the affects are as extensive with me as what skully described in her first post, but there are similarities.
I also have the same problems as Mint_sauce when it comes to maths. I got around some of my issues with mental arithmetic by working with cash in shops, bars and clubs (you have to be able to multiply quickly in your head to speed up the service).
I am also quite guilty of using net speak online a lot, but try to use smiles instead of abbreviations (I.e. ubblol instead of lol). But I am consciously trying to correct and improve my spelling, grammar and punctuation (partly because Im after a job working with computers eek ). Apart from the work reasons, I also wish to do it because I grew up on a poor council estate and am often looked down upon as being a lowly uneducated scruff, and so almost feel I need to so I can prove people wrong, I am fairly well educated (not exceptionally, but better than most I grew up with) and dont like to be belittled just because I was born in a less than desirable area.

Owned by the lovely SNOOPoi
Owner of Clarence_Quack


dani_babybooSILVER Member
addict
667 posts
Location: Cannock, staffordshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
il second that steaks as i am same classed as a chav because i come from a council estate

ppl back home are all still the same dressed up in shiney gold pvc and getting so drunk they sleep with anything i look out of place with my new hair style and fashion but im now company director of my own promotions company and i still cant spell when typing writing the easiest yet easily confused words where as really hard words i can spell...
its strange is dyslexia

enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

stepped up promotions


RicheeBRONZE Member
HOP librarian
1,841 posts
Location: Prague, Czech. Republic


Posted:
To make dyslexia closer. Its like you have picture of thing but cant assign it with words. You cant tell, you cant write. Spinning help me a lot to get access for the assignment.

:R

POI THEO(R)IST


pricklyleafSILVER Member
with added berries
1,365 posts
Location: Manchester, England (UK)


Posted:
I too, am dyslexic, but interestingly, my main problem area doesn't lie in reading and writing, but in auditory processing and memory. Although I do still have difficulty with the three Rs, I can pass for a non-dyslexic.

However, I do still have big problems, as I think even non-dyslexics would have, with people who post without any punctuation. I don't bother reading their replies as it is too difficult, and takes huge amounts of concentration, especially as I do find it difficult to read off computer screens in the first place.

In addition, abbreviations are always difficult to find the meaning of. For instance, OWD often uses IMO in his replies and Ive only now, just found out it means in my opinion. (Sorry to pick on you but this is the best example I could think of! -no offence meant!). Moreover, I remember the time when I didn't know what lol meant either. I therefore think that use of these should be kept to a minimum.

As for all the BTB, TTN, OTH, TTL stuff, it does make the technical forums very inaccessible to newbies, and sometimes I wonder if even seasoned HoPpers know what they are on about! But once you know what they stand for, I find they make posts easier to read, maybe this is from a dyslexic point of view, but the less words means I find things a lot quicker and easier to understand. I'm all for a sticky at the top of the poi moves forum with an explanation of all the abbreviations, it could possibly be added to an existing one.

Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

Ralph Waldo Emerson


linden rathenGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,942 posts
Location: London, UK


Posted:
pricklyleaf: i think almost everyone (at least 90% of hop) find the technical forums confusing tongue

oddly i never read it as "laugh out loud" more as a general sign of laughter.... then again im strange

i still think that if you need loads of 'grammer' (ie dots n' dashes) in a sentence then the sentence is too complex

also if your using words that are long the odds are you could say it in a few shorter words and avoid abreviation net speak or mis-spelling.

Either way id rather see a sloppy sentance or post that gets the message across than a gramatically perfect or very carefully constructed sentence that is painful to read but thats just me and im lazy and not much of a purest when it comes to english (hell im a physicist i do numbers not words)

back


polaritySILVER Member
veteran
1,228 posts
Location: on the wrong planet, United Kingdom


Posted:
We computer programmers tend to be anally retentive when it comes to writing. You get that way when you have to look through pages of code, for a single character that is out of place, and stopping a program from working.



You also end up with a more international spelling, as British English doesn't work in programs. You have to use center and color, instead of centre and colour.



You rely on technical manuals being clearly written, as what they are explaining is frequently complex enough on it's own.





----





While English is understood by many people no matter their first language, many still rely on language translation programs like AltaVista's BabelFish. These programs only work when the text they are translating is correctly spelled, and has specific grammar.



I've had great fun trying to wring accurate translations out of these programs, as I had to send emails to a Japanese friend, whose English wasn't good enough to understand everything I wanted to say. I ended up running my text through the English to Japanese translator, and back again to test that it had been translated properly. If it hadn't, then I'd have to try and rephrase sentences, until what I put in came out again in an understandable form.



Spelling checks usually cause problems when the word is spelled correctly, but isn't the right one for the context. If I think I've spelled a word wrong I'll put it into google, as it will give a correct spelling, and context can be guessed from the summaries.





It was written in 1918, it's freely available. Why the f**k isn't this given out at the start of every English writing course?: Strunk, William, Jr. 1918. The Elements of Style




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You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

Green peppers, lime pickle and whole-grain mustard = best sandwich filling.


PK_BRONZE Member
Lambretta Fanatic
4,995 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
 Written by: polarity



Non-Https Image Link




lol read that with out problem!....

PK.

"To be an angel, one need not have wings.
In giving love there is an equal grace.
Nor need one seek the aura in the face,
As love unveils the beauty of all things."

*Francois Couperin.


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
Me too! ubblol

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


zamiriiBRONZE Member
newbie
44 posts
Location: South Florida, USA


Posted:
Polarity brings up a good point with his picture although it's also a function of how well the human brain can translate gibberish into something it can understand.
But the Elements of Style is worth checking out and I forget how long I have had my copy.

I admit i'm just reading the last page of this.. but i've got a question.

English isn't the same all over. American English is different than the Queen's English.. and the english in India is even more different (if you've ever tried calling tech support then you know what i mean)

Every Day I add another name to the list of people who piss me off


alien_oddityCarpal \'Tunnel
7,193 posts
Location: in the trees


Posted:
All i can say about this is..............
Non-Https Image Link


biggrin

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