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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523

Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:Gets out his dictionary to look up "Manichaen" and "dualisms".
Eeeeep.

Tom: Me neither, it was an accidental cut and paste from my clipboard. praise the lord for edit function.


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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:war on terrorism? war IS terrorism!

and al onestone said: you cannot simultaneously prepare for peace and war.

it doesnt have to be like this.

does preaching to a choir actually get you anywhere?


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: andrealee

Coleman, surprisingly, lots of religions have **much*** in common regarding definitions of good and bad! Like, Lots! I am not going to list them all, since I dont have time, but one book that does list many is the " Worldwide Laws of Life" by John Templeton. It lists 200 spiritual values that are commonly held by the major religions. Though I think the author is Christian he used examples from the Koran, and many many other sources to support his choice of these laws as universal principles. I don't agree with it all , but it is interesting!

That said, the practice of any religion may diverge from the principles in any number of ways...

***So can I have a cookie now please?( And did Andy get you your Salmon Pate?)***



of course you can have a cookie miss andrea but not cos of what you just said - i just could never refuse yoo a cookie wink

i completely agree that there are many, many parallels in religions over the definition of right and wrong.

i think the most basic of these 'moral laws' is "treat others as you wish to be treated" - i'm definitely down with that one ubbrollsmile

but no two religions (and no two people) will ever agree completely - when you get down close to the line between right and wrong, there is very little agreement.

is it wrong to eat pork?
is drinking alcohol a good act (see the catholic holy communion ceremony) or an inherently bad one (as muslims believe)?

i like the idea of universal moral laws but i don't buy it really - i don't think an absolute definition of right and wrong exists and i doubt it ever will.

i agree 100% with this line that will wrote:

"No, no-one is good, no-one is bad. We are all different shades of grey."


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:how about Gandhi and Martin Luther King biggrin

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:dr martin luther king and gandhi are held in high esteem because many, many people agree that lots of the things they did with their lives were 'good'.



but it is can't be more obvious that not everyone agrees that these were inherently good people - if they did, king would never have been shot in the neck and killed.



is morality subjective by its very nature...?





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Of course it is, absolutism has no place in ethical discussions. Ever. Absolutely. biggrin

I'd reject andrealee's idea that we all have some kind of guiding spirit inside us to tell us what is right and wrong. It comes to close to "Human beings are different from animals" which is IMO wrong. Sorry. shrug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:I might agree with you Sethis,and reject my own point of view! eek

(Though your example sucks... Animals may have their own very practical systems of right and wrong integrated with a internal guidance we call instinct...It may not reflect our own values. As for animals and humans being different, of course! There are many differneces that can still exist within part of a whole... Another arguement altogether, and not for today! wink

The reason I might diasaggree with myself is a matter of scale.

Many things we do day to day, do not arouse the voice that says
" Wrong! Wrong!". Example:If it is just me, in my small little neighborhood, on my small little island, it does not seem like a bad thing to catch a few fish for dinner, pick flowers for the table, and cut a couple of trees down each year to heat my cabin.
BUT
If we expand that behaviour out over a massive population, densely located in one region, you can see how it would begin to stress local resources, even eliminate species, and produce polution...

So some might consider those actions Bad, or Wrong.

Maybe, due to scale, humans find ourselves in situation where our voice from the heart is not necessarily seeing the whole picture, and able to provide us sufficient guidance for the situation. Maybe that is how our current society has gotten so lost , an inherant problem as it got so big...And I guess that is where education, and understanding come in, to give ourselves new awareness to develop that little internal voice ( which I still beleive exists!) to deal with the bigger parameters of our lives as a global community.

This is just one thing I am considering - that our internal guidance system may need to be tuned and adjusted for scale. If you wanted to relate it to the voilence and torture aspect of this thread, you could look simple at the difference between asserting our will on one person, say our little brother, and making him capitulate to our demands for what game we play that day... The consequences seem minor, and that might not arouse an internal voice saying " Evil!" But if you expand it out into the size of countries, and the means they go about asserting themselves...


I must assert though, that I dont personally think much in terms of polarities like right and wrong, good and bad. As I said, too divisive. Most of us function in a range, and can be in situations where nothing is that clear. But we do , in general, recognize on some level when we are doing harm, and have a place within us that feels it. And when we recognize it, I personally think we have an obligation to get out there deal with it. Or get in there and change it, but to stand up and create some space for that little voice that wants you to be caring and compassionate for yourself and this world!
hug
ubblove


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I remember a time during the Cold War when it was Us vs. Them. We were the Good Guys because we were right and free. We had this big fake enemy to battle, we were the best in the world at everything, and everyone (except those evil Commies) loved us.

It was so simple then.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:You really really belive that it was so simple at those times?

I could easily recall some examples with the US funding a number of people, making big trouble in the world and causing a lot of suffering and grievance and problems on the long therm.

It never was simple and it will not be in the near future.

Sorry to question all this, but in my country it is a "newborn" virtue to question every governmental doctrine (just for some 50years - but I'm the 100th-munky...)

Merry Christmas

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ignore it... and it will go away... wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:I think Doc was being sarcastic?

"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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dream
dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
absolutism has no place in ethical discussions. Ever. Absolutely



ubblol

Was this an ironic joke? I hope so.

Otherwise it's a self-defeating argument.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Sethis
I'd reject andrealee's idea that we all have some kind of guiding spirit inside us to tell us what is right and wrong. It comes to close to "Human beings are different from animals" which is IMO wrong. Sorry. shrug



No Sethis - we all have this guiding spirit, but his intent is very different from one to the other... this is why g(o)od and (d)evil is only relative...

Just to really point at totally ridiculous examples - totally ridiculous, ok?

Jesus thought he does the right thing - what did the roman church do with it? some found it superb, but neither the incas nor so called "witches" would have followed up on it! how many people had suffered from inquisition, etc.??? Hitler thought he did the right thing: how many people had to suffer and were killed?

Whenever we believe to be absolutely RIGHT and GOOD - this is the point where we should start to consider that maybe we are not.

It has never been simple - only if we believed in what our government (a la 1984) told us, when we believed what our spiritual leaders told us, what our parents and teachers told us.

Now most of the people ask: Why are those terrorists doing what they do? We have to make a war on them! Defend our great economy and freedom (after we initially financed those terrorists to do war on other people)!

Actually these people are looking at the coin from only ONE side! No question the means are wrong! But the means of responding to it are also wrong!

I could go on now but I guess I'll be taken apart in mainstream thinking (again)...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:In the UN Convention of 1984 (with the US undersigned)

Written by: Office of the High Commisioner for Human Rights
Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.



The US is defining "torture" slightly different and (in order to legalize it) adds "intent" ...

Written by: Media Monitors Network
in order for the criminal charge to stick, the accused must have inflicted the pain with specific intent to accomplish the precise act for which they are being charged (e.g. torture). In this instance, it would be easy for the accused to plead not guilty along the following lines: Although I knew that handcuffing naked Ahmed to the cell, and having Eatem my raging bulldog standing before Ahmed would result in severe pain, it was not my intention or objective to inflict severe pain..
Not guilty! (Says Condi)



Hence torture is prohibited in either war as in state of emergency... the US authorities right now do consider the articles of the above convention as applicable

- only on US soils (meaning that the CIA can torture anywhere else on the planet) and
- only for US-citizens worldwide (meaning that it's limited to their own citizens as in "receiving")

and tries to legally backup their definition...

After definition of US administratives the treatment of suspects with excessive light, heat, cold, noise is only a "manipulation" of the "interrogation environment" and the use of restraints as a "stress and force technique" as well as the demonstration of fake executions, denial of sleep and the "water board" are just "special interrogation methods"...

As long as the Unites States of America are not even displaying the lowest levels of common sense and are opposing the most basic human rights IMO they have no right whatsoever to pinpoint at any other state in the world for doing exactly THAT and have to face the worlds criticism.

I would like to remind US citizens that as much as their own government is regarding citizens of other ("terrorist") states as "supporters" and those (accidentally) killed civilians as "collateral damage", vice versa they might be regarded just as such by those countries.

I am reminded of Germany after WWII: not a single soul has been a Nazi (unless proven otherwise)...

grouphug for all individual americans... may angel please help them...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:No, we are not the 'good guys'. We torture, kidnap, lie and maim. My country is particularly pathetic these days in that it doesn't even bother to manage its own psychologically traumatising 'detention' centres. They are outsourced to private, profit making US companies.

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Any links newgabe? I haven't heard much (well, anything actually) about Australian human rights violations in detention centres.

Maybe I'm not reading the right sources? shrug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Delete

newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Yah, it's been going on for years.

http://clusty.com/search?query=detention+australia
br>
is a start.

There has been a bit of agitation about it that has finally gotten the kids out now. But the treatment has destroyed the resilience and mental health of many many people. It is also hard to know how many have been deported to be disappeared in their home countries. I have no doubt at all that Australia would cooperate in the US inspired 'disappearances" that are quoted in this thread. *We* have passed seriously scary laws that leave us all toothless in the face of wrongful detention its the consequent *interrogation* without charges having to be laid. And if it happens to us it's illegal to tell anyone about it...



Oh for the days when an *extraordinary rendition* meant a bloody good version of a song!


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:The thing is that these days even the BND (German intelligence) can be accused of torture (or participation), that the German government is standing aside, doing nothing whilst German citizens are in Guantanamo four years without a hearing or trial and diplomatically doing nothing while a German citizen has been kidnapped by the CIA and taken abroad, where he's "questioned"...

I find this outrageous... sorry


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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