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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523

NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I'm not posting anything reflective until I read a full report of what Glass thinks on the subject.

I'm not letting Mr. Emoticon get away with just chucking that one up so he can watch us dogs fight over a philisophical bone.

wink hug


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:What do you mean "we", white man?

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:There are people held in guantanamo bay without hearing for years already... and without expecting relief within a reasonable timeline... hence our governments don't do anything about it... but G.W. goes to China and is all prod to raise human rights concerns... confused

It's all a matter of perspective, where the understanding of "good and evil" actually breaks down IMO...

What's good for the state of Israel is not in favour of the Palestinian and vice versa. What's good for mankind is very bad for the malaria virus (and it's host) - and maybe even for the rest of the planet?

As mankind we perceive us to be the good guys and allow a few beneficial species to come along with us... the kitty is sweet and cute, but only because of it's size... just 30 inch and 10 punds more and it would be anything else.

But maybe one goes a little deeper into onesself and reflect on individually? The more I think I'm the good guy, the more I'm convinced to do the right thing, the less I might be considering others, no?

I'm afraid that the more we think that we are the good ones the more wrong we are in this consideration...

Good ol' fella Onestone... love this dude


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:let me answer your question with another question:

is 'good' not a personal point of opinion that can change from person to person.


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Simian: It has nothing to do with race. I think we called ourselves NATO Military alliance of democratic states in Europe and North America. We're one side in a war on terrorism and another war in Iraq agains someone, but I'm not sure who?
Although, it could be about religion as apparently "god is on our side". and on theirs too.

Pineapple Pete:
Do you that that which is in the first link is "good".
Find me person or a religion who thinks that Torture is "good"

NYC - I think that amnesty international do a lot of good work. and i think that thier intentions are pure and simple.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:.. is it the conditioned "good" - or the absolute?

and some people still believe, that it's all about winning, no matter how low the moral values drop for achieving victory...

as to me the path is the goal and i rather fail glorious than being a cruelsome winner...

go(o)d and bad(evil) is IMO a conditioning by society for mindcontrol...

as for the torture... spank there are plenty (unfortunately)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:What happened to that guy : not very nice

But the fact that it's defined as "torture" is rather telling though. i wouldn't apply that word to this case. I'd say torture is something like getting your teeth smashed out with a hammer, not being locked up for a while and subjected to a low hum.

Like i said, it wasn't very nice, and i don't agree with the methods being used. But i can't really raise much outrage over this. Is that the best evidence available for NATO being "the bad guys"? Especially seeing as it's not NATO that are responsible, but specifically the US.

How did he end up as a terrorist suspect in the first place? Organising jumble sales, perhaps?

Are we the good guys? Only compared to everyone else.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:What does it really matter in the end? When it comes down to it, another fifty to a hundred years and we're all going to be fighting over energy and water. If not sooner... If not already.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Yes... someday there will be wars over oil and land. It will be horrible in the far future.

confused

wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
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PyroWill
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

PyroWill

HoP's Barman. Trapped aged 6 months
Location: Staines

Total posts: 4437
Posted:This is why im running for presidency

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

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Richee
BRONZE Member since Jan 2002

HOP librarian
Location: Prague

Total posts: 1841
Posted:Yes, we try to.

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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crowley2
BRONZE Member since Nov 2005

crowley2

official hop cutie
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton

Total posts: 272
Posted:i belive that the whole amercan law systm is shoddy and corrupt so im nvr a big fan of americans on a whole although i do like them as iderviduals when i meet them but i cant belive how ur goverment gets away with so may atrocities and
1 no one stops them
2 i hear every day frm my american freinds how much they h8 GW
3 still noone does any thing


The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett

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Asena
GOLD Member since Aug 2005

Asena

What a Bummer
Location: Shatfield, Hertfordshire

Total posts: 3224
Posted:Written by: PyroWill

This is why im running for presidency



you can have my vote


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:I was gonna say that, but then thought I might get spank for going off-topic...

You've got mine too Will! wink

Good and Evil are pointless concepts to interest philosophers. Right and Wrong are much more useful. I might not know exactly what is good or evil, but I DO know what is right and what is wrong. Torture is wrong, unless of course it's sanctioned by the government... in which case it's all dandy... tongue biggrin


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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pineapple pete
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

pineapple pete

water based
Location: melbourne

Total posts: 5125
Posted:eek

sorry, i read the title of the thread, and it being about 1-2am when i posted my previous post, assumed it was another war on terrorism thread.

i do believe torture is wrong, very wrong.

cheers, pete


"you know there are no trophys for doing silly things in real life yeah pete?" said ant "you wont get a 'listened to ride of the valkyries all the way to vietnam' trophy"

*proud owner of the very cute fire_spinning_angel, birgit and neon shaolin*

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JauntyJames
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

JauntyJames

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA

Total posts: 3533
Posted:That's why I'm a member of the "leave everybody else alone except when giving them cookies" party.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:What do you mean we...

You praise Amnesty International, which was founded by Peter Beneson, a Brit.

But rightly question the actions of our government/military, along with those of our NATO allies.

On a personal level I identify far more closely with the values of the former (as I'm sure do most the people on this forum). I didn't vote for Blair (and cannot vote for Bush or any other foreign leader), I did not support the invasion of Iraq, the use of torture (which is not new... have a look for the School of the Americas... a US military run facility between 1946 and 1984 which has been instrumental in pineering many of the psychological torture techniques (hooding, use of music etc) that have been prevelant in Iraq), or on a broder level the system of Integrated World Capitalism. So the universalising we makes no sense to me. I am not on the same side (to use a painfully reductionist metaphor) as messers Bush, Cheney, Blair et al.

If you mean are the actions of the US/UK military the actions of good guys... then no.

For a decent account of some of the horrific actions taken by NATO governments read 'Unpeople' by Mark Curtis; which details the complicity of the UK military in the deaths of over 10 million people worldwide since the end of WW2 or Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky; which deals with many of the US's 'terrorist' (his term, and he justifies its use) atrocities over the same period.

'i can't really raise much outrage over this. Is that the best evidence available for NATO being "the bad guys"'

There's far more compelling reasons as to why our governments cannot be considered morally just (see above) However, abducting people (who it turns out have often been completely innocent, but of arabic descent) and psychologically torturing them for a couple of years, while their families have no idea what's happened may not outrage you, but if it happened to you or a member of your family or one of your friends would you really feel the same way?


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:continuing on from sethis' post...

i think good and evil can be simply and directly related to right and wrong:

if you do wrong, the action is evil; if you do right, the action is good.

the problem is finding an absolute definition of right(good)/wrong(evil) - i don't think it exists.

find me two people or religions that agree completely on what is right and wrong (or good and evil if you prefer) and i'll give you a cookie smile


back on topic however, i would agree that this is blatently an infringement of this man, al-assad's human rights and it is not something that we should accept as a consequence of the war on terror.

the u.s. authoritarian administration is infringing more and more on personal liberties and human rights and its distinction between 'the enemy' and the citizens of the state (the very people it claims it is protecting) is becoming blurred.

it seems the illegal war on iraq seems to have set a precedent for the current u.s. government - if you mention the words 'war on terror' ('wot'?), international and national laws immediately become inapplicable to the agenda at hand.

i.e. the 'wot' is increasingly being used as a justifiable reason to perform illegal acts.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: crowley2

i belive that the whole amercan law systm is shoddy and corrupt so im nvr a big fan of americans on a whole although i do like them as iderviduals when i meet them but i cant belive how ur goverment gets away with so may atrocities and
1 no one stops them
2 i hear every day frm my american freinds how much they h8 GW
3 still noone does any thing



Here, I rewrote your post so that you sounded a bit more articulate.

"I have serious problems with the American legal system. I find it ineffective and corrupt. Though I haven't had a problem with the few I've met, I find it hard to agree with many American ideals and morals. It troubles me how the American government consistanly infringes on basic civil rights of both it's citizens and the global community. It is even more troubling to see world leaders catering to the will of the American government as well as so many apathetic Americans unwilling to stand up to a leader they do not agree with."

There, I feel better. ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:Quick, someone call him a nazi!

biggrin


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:No, we are not the good guys.

We ALL know whats wrong. Like its wrong to rape, kill and covert our neighbours oil or whatever. Yet we continue to take these actions, regardless of our race, colour or culture.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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crowley2
BRONZE Member since Nov 2005

crowley2

official hop cutie
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton

Total posts: 272
Posted:thx NYC i was allways [censored] at English

The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett

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BansheeCat
BRONZE Member since Jul 2005

veteran
Location: lost

Total posts: 1247
Posted:Coleman, surprisingly, lots of religions have **much*** in common regarding definitions of good and bad! Like, Lots! I am not going to list them all, since I dont have time, but one book that does list many is the " Worldwide Laws of Life" by John Templeton. It lists 200 spiritual values that are commonly held by the major religions. Though I think the author is Christian he used examples from the Koran, and many many other sources to support his choice of these laws as universal principles. I don't agree with it all , but it is interesting!

That said, the practice of any religion may diverge from the principles in any number of ways...

***So can I have a cookie now please?( And did Andy get you your Salmon Pate?)***

Aside from that, I have a very simple personal belief that for the most part, we do know right from wrong. Our hearts do tell us. We just often chose not to listen, are distracted by other information, too numb to act, or indoctrinated in beleifs that ignore that important little voice we have within. But it is there...

Good guys, bad guys: useless divisions. When we see ourselves in others,both the torured and the torturers,we can recognize our common humanity-- beyond that our common life energy( encompassing the planet too) . We can develop compassion, and help those doing harm also change their behaviours, beginning with our own changes.

Am I optimistic this will be done before we all end up in a horrific war over resources?... Well, not really. But I live in the moment, and work with the present, where there is lots of room for posative influence!


love,
A


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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hexagonic


hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1687
Posted:Written by: coleman

i.e. the 'wot' is increasingly being used as a justifiable reason to perform illegal acts.



...to regain a certain amount of control that was being lost before September 11th. Our civil liberties in the countries that have "freedom" are being eroded by governments wanting control rather than terrorists wanting to make a statement.
It's a real shame that our governments have reacted in such a way to the attacks on America on September 11th.

It's also a real shame that so many people are religious in this world. Religion in my view was created by men for men to create social control on a grand scale. Is it any coincidence that GW is a Christian and leading a war on muslims?

What the hell happened to Bin Laden, wasn't he the one behind September 11th and his old 'friend' Saddam have nothing to do with it? Why is Saddam in court on trial and not Bin Laden? How can the War on Terrorism start with a hunt for Bin Laden and now be no hunt for Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein on trial?

Written by: Glass
Are we the good guys?


No, no-one is good, no-one is bad. We are all different shades of grey. Unfortunately the world's only superpower still thinks in terms of good guys and bad guys, much like i did when i was still in primary school and playing cops and robbers. I strongly believe that until Americans are able to think en-masse differently from Good guys and Bad guys there won't be a different approach to the world by the yanks.

I hate to say it but America are really stoking the fire for those in opposition to them (including myself).

"War is terrorism on a bigger budget" How can you fight killing people with killing even more people?


ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Written by:
War is terrorism on a bigger budget



Close but no cigar. Terrorism a type of warfare. One in which the strategy is not to defeat your opponent in terms of sheer military might, but to create sufficient psychological trauma to the opponent that they lose the will to fight.

Where you are right is that the commonly held belief that terrorism is a weapon of the weak is nonsense. Terrorism is and always has been a weapon of the strong, who tend to do things a lot more effectively than the weak.

One good recent example was the use of Shock and Awe in Gulf II... Shock and Awe basically equates to: we will drop a load of high explosives on your capital city and army, killing many and disabling much of your country. You will be powerless to stop this. You will be scared, so scared in fact that you give up any notion of fighting our unstoppable military machine, put down your gun and let us invade.

And the tactic was quite successful. Three quarters of the Iraqi army deserted. They saw that fighting a conventional war was hopeless (a lesson learned the hard way in Gulf War I... 250,000 dead Iraqi soldiers, while the US troops had a statistically lower chance of dying than a US civillian in Southern California) went home and became insurgents. The images of shock and awe, broadcast in real time across the world sent a chilling message to any possible challenges to US military hegemony... Cross us and you will be destroyed, whether the UN gives us the green light or not.

While Shock and Awe represents a form of visually intense and fairly low casualty state terrorism (along the lines of say 9/11) the US has used other forms, notably in Nicaragua, where they used a total domination of airspace to direct the Contras on the ground to 'soft targets,' meaning villages where there were no Nicaraguan troops to fight back caused the deaths of tens of thousands of Nicaraguans, until the Nicaraguan people voted in a pro-US candidate on the grounds that if he was elected the killings would stop. Instead of the visual terror of the Gulf, the Nicaraguan people were terrorized by their lack of any form of security against the marauding US backed Contras.

Another obvious instance of state sponsored terrorism is the blitz of London during WW2. The Germans stopped bombing British airfields and instead targeted the City of London, hoping that the British people would lose the will to fight. Instead the effect was that the British people dug in, all the more determined to fight. A similar terrorist episode occured a few years later, when British PM Winston Churchill persuaded US President FDR to the D-Day invasion by a year, as he was confident that his tactic of firebombing German cities would terrorize the Germans into surrender. Again though, the tactic was unsuccessful, like the Brits the Germans were horrified by the inhuman actions of their enemy and became all the more determined to fight on.

Perhaps the most visually devastating displays of State Terror however, were those pepetrated by the US against the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the 6th and 9th of August 1945. On this occasion, the terror worked, and Japan surrendered unconditionally without the need for any land based US invasion.

So... Terrorism is a weapon of the strong as well as the weak. And when the terrorist act is perpetrated by a strong nation against a weaker one, terrorism is often an incredibly effective form of warfare.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Who WANTS to be a good guy anyways?

Like the one who is riding into the sunset singing "I'm a poor lonesome cowboy" or the other guy who was so attached to wood they nailed him on that one...

And I strictly oppose the theory that some people actually HAVE a heart... not just a broken one - I mean even traces of humanitarian intent... Hence they also have a right to be on this planet, like everyone else... as at least they teach the rest - detachment...

Written by: andrealee
...we do know right from wrong. Our hearts do tell us. We just often chose not to listen, are distracted by other information, too numb to act, or indoctrinated in beleifs that ignore that important little voice we have within. But it is there...




clap

If we'd all look like the truely good guys - the kids would not even be halfway as much attracted to firespinning - so keep up the bad look will ya?

weavesmiley

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aaargh eek unticking the box doesn't help... (*^@#$^)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:{{oops edit out random line}}



Good posts andrea and dream

and thanks for the salmon



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476.html
br>


Theres a lot of talk about terrorism here, but just like Masri, this thread has NOTHING to do with terrorists.

EDITED_BY: Glss (1135327809)


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: Slate.com
But Democrats, who've grown ever bolder in their attacks against what they consider a lawless executive branch, shouldn't saddle up their high horses just yetat least when it comes to condemning the abuse of prisoners on Guantanamo. True, the Bush administration's record on that score has been nothing short of shameful. Our government has, with its actions there, harmed apparently innocent people, alienated loyal allies, created a rallying cry for jihadists, and increased the dangers to our own troops if they're ever captured. What's overlooked in the smug condemnations, however, is that the Clinton administration helped pave the way for this current mess.Written by:


The full article here: http://www.slate.com/id/2132979/
br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good's just the other side of the same coin - when tossed in the right way, it always lands sunny side up...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:Drew... I think the reason terrorism has become a talking point in this thread is a reaction to the binarization portrayed by Western governments and media.

They'd like people to view the world in terms of Manichaen dualisms, good and bad, purity against evil, democracy against despotism, civillisation against savages, the forces of freedom and liberation against terrorists, with a subtext of Christianity against Islam, Huntington's clash of the civillisations.

Fortunately it seems that on HoP at least, the world isn't viewed in such an alarmingly simple reductionist manner.

biggrin

There be's hope yet

wink


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:BTW

Written by: Glss
Your name is made up of letters and you are in a country



confused

don't get it... shrug sorry


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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