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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:If a teacher in a public school was informing your children about the way things really work in the real world, that would be a good thing, right? If the teacher was separating fact from fiction and dispelling myths, that would be the essence of education, would it not?

Now what if the teacher was telling your child there was no Santa Claus?

http://www.wgal.com/education/5535703/detail.html?rss=lan&psp=irresistible
br>
Can a teacher, or anyone for that matter, be in the wrong for telling children the truth? It's the parents who perpetuate the lie, as well as the existance of fictitious creatures such as the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and compassionate conservatives. But what if they were also helping to maintain the illusions of others? Like a different religious outlook, or a political view. They're all based on personal belief structures. Can you defend lying to your kids? Is it any wonder why, when they hit 13, they tend not to trust you?


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:NYC there's a difference between politeness and lying (Re: "Granny is fat").

There is also a difference between teaching simplified ideas and teaching lies. It irritates me that people teach things that aren't true, or that they don't say "This isn't an accurate model, but that's because the real one is far more complicated". Cos then when you hit A-Level or whatever the local equivalent the teachers are like "You must forget everything you learnt for the past 2 years". What?!? We just spent 2 years learning this censored!!!

But then I never liked chemistry anyway... wink tongue

And I think (devilsarmy) that every parent is aware their children will lie to them eventually. They may not like it, but few kids tell the whole truth to their parents, it's part of being a child/young person/teenager. However that should not be taken as encouragement to lie to your parents, particularly over things that matter.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:On teacher's behalf, most of the time you don't have the TIME to explain that this is a simpler model and now we're using a more complex model. I mean, I always make sure to do tell my kids that, but I wouldn't fault a teacher for not doing it. It always opens up a Pandora's box of questions that derail any attempts at actually learning anything productive.

Sometimes you need to say "Just learn this even though it's not completey true because it's on the test." It's not ideal, but what is?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Suibom


Suibom

addict
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 577
Posted:I think NYC's got a great concept of it. As a kid, I don't remember overly believing in Santa for very long, but I do remember enjoying my parents enjoyment of the Santa tradition. I remember late one particular night when it was past my bedtime and we were driving in a car, my folks pointed to a plane (lights in the sky) and told me that Santa was on his way.. Yes I knew it was a plane, but I could also believe that it could be Santa, and I had fun rushing home and getting in bed (just to get up shortly after and sneak to the stairs and watch my folks pretend to be santa, eatin the cookies and layin out presents).

I deeply cherish my ability to believe in things that don't exist and bring to life imaginings of fearie folk and forest spirits. I hope to pass that along to my child(ren). I surely don't want some teacher, or other cynical human, to tell my kid something doesn't exist just because they don't believe in magic. Too many people have let their inner child die, and it's often sad.

Will I lie if my boy asks me straight out if something exists? No. But I hope when that time comes that I can keep alive the beauty of tall tales.

*/me goes off to watch Big Fish again*


Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.

Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Depends, are you looking at it from the historical perspective? Then yes there was, by a different name.

Real, absolutely. That would be me.

Idealistically, what the hell is wrong with allowing the kids to believe that unselfishly giving, that spreading joy and cheer, the very essence of Santa is real? It should be real all year long. And yes, my son does know it about more than receiving because we do an angel tree secret santa every year, and this year he wanted to give to two children.

So therefore, there is a Santa.

We all believe in myths and superstitions for a variety of reasons.
I don't lie to my child.
He asks, I answer and he *knows* this. Last year he wondered allowed about Santa. I told him if he wanted to know I would tell him, but also asked him if he thought of Santa as a real person or more like holiday spirit. He answered the latter and said he wasn't ready to know the full truth because he wanted magic a little while longer.
The real world creeps in all too quickly and takes over the child-like optimism of youth. Why deprive them of something that helps foster a generous and giving spirit, and a sense that there is magic in the world?
My son knows I wouldn't lie to him, so he simply does not ask.
He's 10, btw.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Pele, did the title of this thread catch your attention? ubblol

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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JayKitty
GOLD Member since Nov 2004

JayKitty

Mission: Ignition
Location: Central New Jersey

Total posts: 534
Posted:it caught my attention, lol. After reading the thread it does make sense. Although when I was younger signs like that always made me more curious.

Don't mind me, just passing through.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:They still make me curious as hell.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali

Total posts: 4030
Posted:When my lad went to school in UK after his first 4 years in India and various Buddhist communnities, it was just before Halloween. So he got witches, ghosts, God, goblins, the Holy Ghost and Santa all pretty much at the same time. Took a while to figure out which invisible entity he was supposed to 'believe' in and not....

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: newgabe

When my lad went to school in UK after his first 4 years in India and various Buddhist communnities, it was just before Halloween. So he got witches, ghosts, God, goblins, the Holy Ghost and Santa all pretty much at the same time. Took a while to figure out which invisible entity he was supposed to 'believe' in and not....


We're supposed to believe in one?! Darn, I missed that bit out. Mind you with all the plagues and genocides and gratuitous wholesale destruction demanded by God I think it would be better for people to believe in Santa instead.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:People who work with children or have children understand the fact that kids need a little magic in their lives. Its not a question of lying.

Children shouldn't have access to all the truths (take note that not even us adults have access to all truths), they do not have the mental understanding of how the world works. Kids should grow up having no worries about the outside world, and yet they should be aware whats going on.
Plus they'd grow up being a know it all, spoiling the magic and the spirit for the rest of the kids.

It enriches their lives, and believing in stuff gives them hope. When they understand the reason behind our story weaving, they can help create a little magic themselves for the younger members of he family, and they will feel that creating a wonderful seasonal atmosphere is amazing.

I love giving. Give selflessly and only want a thank you in return. Its the way the world should be. (see, I have hope too!)


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Never thought of it that way...

Magicians are really just professional liars.

wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali

Total posts: 4030
Posted:Written by: TinklePants

Children shouldn't have access to all the truths (take note that not even us adults have access to all truths)


This made me remember that when I was about 11 I found a book in the library caled '"The Facts of Life for Teenagers"
I was chuffed cos I thought I'd found THE book ubbidea the one that had all that stuff that adults knew that gave them Power and Authority. Read it. Harrumph, it was just about making babies and kissing and stuff Augh!! Ripped off! angry Knew those damned adults wouldn't give it away that easily...


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:mmmm

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Tinklepants

People who work with children or have children understand the fact that kids need a little magic in their lives. Its not a question of lying.




Yeah, the magic comes from fiction, not believing lies. Most of the people supporting "Santa should be told to kids" state that you're ruining the "Magic" when you tell children that Santa doesn't exist. Well look at it this way, there wouldn't BE any magic to GET ruined if people didn't invent unecessary fictions to tell kids about things. If you want to encourage a child to give, then let them give something and feel the warm glow that comes from knowing you've made someone happy. NOT from telling them a man fits down a non-existant chimney to somehow magically give people presents. All six billion of them. In one night. Besides, santa doesn't teach kids anything at all that couldn't be instilled with the telling of some basic mythology. At least that's NOT:

1. Marketed to death
2. Judeo-Christian in origin
3. Monotonous

@ Newgabe: Goblins aren't invisible! I can see them now... grinning at me... waving their spears... devil


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Sethis

Yeah, the magic comes from fiction, not believing lies.



From "Dictionary.com"

fiction- 2. A lie.

confused


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:why dont u do what someone else said further up in the thread (i cant remeber or find who) and tell ur kids that ur santa it solves all the problems, ur not lying to them and ur still letting them have magic in their lives

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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earthdragon


earthdragon

Member
Location: nevada

Total posts: 62
Posted:to tell a child that santa dont exist is to destroy there since of imagination as a parent i well continue to as some have put it lie in my eyes its keeping the imagination alive and that is inportant to me

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:its not destroying santa ur saying im ur santa thats not mean or hurtful my opinion i would of prefered that instead of the lie

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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earthdragon


earthdragon

Member
Location: nevada

Total posts: 62
Posted:but till my 2 year old and 4 year old ask me other wise santa lives with elves in the north pole and raindeer fly and so on and so forth with all santas magical buddies when the age comes i will tell santas real id

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:lol ok i can agree with that if they havent asked then no reason to tell

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Article from The Onion

Spooky. wink


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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crowley2
BRONZE Member since Nov 2005

crowley2

official hop cutie
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton

Total posts: 272
Posted:who here knows the real story of saint nick and why we have this myth hands up pls
*puts hand up to start every1 off*


The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:*sigh*
Funny NYC, when I go to Dictionary.com I get:

Written by: Dictionary.com


1 a. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented.
1 b. The act of inventing such a creation or pretense.

2. A lie.

3 A. A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact.
3 B. The category of literature comprising works of this kind, including novels and short stories.

4. Law. Something untrue that is intentionally represented as true by the narrator.




So please don't insult our intelligence by making like there is only one definition of fiction i.e. A lie.

Santa is not literature. Therefore he is not fiction (definition 3a/b), which is the sense in which I was using the word originally; but is in fact definition 2.

Once more, people say "It will destroy the magic". The magic wouldn't BE there if you hadn't made them believe a fairy tale in the first place. That's your fault, not the fault of the people who say "Santa doesn't exist", because hey, he doesn't.

I'm with Roald Dahl, Jack (of the beanstalk variety) wasn't a hero, he was an ecological vandal. wink biggrin


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Is the magic not created by the parents? The feeling a parent has to prepare the celebration for the kids? I was more or less aware that "Santa" was my mum, but I thought she was sooo sweet doing this for us kids and she could slip back into her own childhood days...

It's all over in the air - give, selfless and want nothing in return...

Hence I see people run around in hectic, stress and frustration not to get x-mas presents in time... BE SELFLESS - once a year... If the spirit of Christmas treated for commercialism only - if it's corrupted and abused - isn't it time to get back into simplicity?

Santa Claus really existed and what he did was to set an example in very dark times, to bright up very depressing lives. This is the magic, no? To do something (that is not expected), even if it IS a lie in that very moment - to brighten someones day. Only for an instant or two make them smile,,, this is what gives (back) hope, no?

--- Practice random acts of beauty and senseless kindness ---


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I'm reading an interesting article at the moment. Santa Clause: The Great Imposter i think you should all read it: Santa = Satan and preys on pre-teens because that is the time when their evangelical senses are forming.



umm


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:mmm u guys what happens if a little kid reads this ?

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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Sakura_Moon


Sakura_Moon

Hop's Kitten Jester.
Location: Wonderland igloo, Vic, Austral...

Total posts: 1803
Posted:Santa isnt real?!

.:Pink Exocutioner:.

I am Jack's Raging Bile Duct...

Loving you from the deepest part of my loins.


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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:now wat did i tell u, well im not saying anything

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:THanks for that article, Rouge. I'm saved now, no longer will i believe in the great liar Santa, because it's been proven to me that Santa is Thor is Satan. My word, i would be doomed had i not read that astounding pile of literary bovine excrete.

ubblol

Some people scare me. I wonder how long he'd put into that...


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: devilsarmy

mmm u guys what happens if a little kid reads this ?




That's why the thread says "Adults Only". Any kid who come into a thread titled like that deserves what they find. But hey, if they can't read the title, then they presumably can't read the posts. wink biggrin


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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