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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:If a teacher in a public school was informing your children about the way things really work in the real world, that would be a good thing, right? If the teacher was separating fact from fiction and dispelling myths, that would be the essence of education, would it not?

Now what if the teacher was telling your child there was no Santa Claus?

http://www.wgal.com/education/5535703/detail.html?rss=lan&psp=irresistible
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Can a teacher, or anyone for that matter, be in the wrong for telling children the truth? It's the parents who perpetuate the lie, as well as the existance of fictitious creatures such as the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and compassionate conservatives. But what if they were also helping to maintain the illusions of others? Like a different religious outlook, or a political view. They're all based on personal belief structures. Can you defend lying to your kids? Is it any wonder why, when they hit 13, they tend not to trust you?


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:.... hmmm - not really (?)

a) santa existED and we're celebrating that he did what he did
b) does it make it an any better lie only because it's collective?

I do not really believe that we turn children into smartypants, if we're telling them the truth... shrug magic is beyond lie and illusion... magic IS HAPPENING... ubbangel

Would it be easier if we would just not pretend that santa is all around and about? Just do it without claiming him doing it?

I really really wonder why most of the parents are perpetuating what they have received from their parents - instead of braking that cycle and trying something different. I understand that this is the only thing they actually really know about. But it's always the same concepts, it's eat or die!

IMO this is killing childrens imaginations in the long run and "the magic"... getting disappointed and aware they have been cheated on by the ones they love... shrug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Devilsarmy
Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton
Member Since: 14th Oct 2005
Total posts: 2984
Posted:mmm i dont know

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name


janice
janice

Member

Member Since: 3rd Jan 2006
Total posts: 34
Posted:part of being a child is the make-believe places they visit. let them believe as long as possible, it is a unique moment if you could see thru their eyes and realise what a simple fantasy can bring them. when they ask , answer with the truth. some may be dissapointed at the time but they will see the value of that once they see their own children grow. all too soon reality kicks in with a huge force, then is plenty of time for cold harsh truths. santa is not life threatening , nor is thinking the easter bunny has visited. telling your children all people are nice is. the differance lays between what you believe in. if you take away the fantasy too soon it is almost like taking the dream away before they can see what it is. telling your children they are perfect and oh so wonderful is more harmful even tho some find that positive encouragement.santa isn't a bad thing nor is the toothfairy. let them believe, they have an entire adulthood to find out not all fairytales last. ever sit down and have a tea party ( or have spiderman attach evil monsters?) knowing that it isn't real but play with the fantasy? were you lying or encouraging creativity? what will you say when your child asks to see god? what proof will you show them? there are many more big questions for them to deal with as they grow.being a child was the most free time of their lives, let them play. all too soon things change for them. santa really isn't a big issue in the grand scheme of life.

in goth we trust


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:health professionals believe kids should have their imaginations stretched. It helps them grow into creative adults. I've said all i've needed to on this subject and if anyone disagrees then you're either very naive, cold hearted, or just plain boring.

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8735
Posted:Written by: FireTom

IMO this is killing childrens imaginations in the long run and "the magic"... getting disappointed and aware they have been cheated on by the ones they love... shrug



Here I don't agree...

Kids try to work out how santa gets back up the chimney,,, what happens when there is NO chimney...
How could he get around the whole world...

these thoughts create stimulation in the childs mind.... these stories create cognative response. all in all it trains the childs mind.

Sethis...you are a pratchett fan have you read Science of the discworld 1-3? where they talk about
"lies to children"

the world is broken down into understandable pieces for children to understand. too much "truth" can be hard to digest and to much seriusness makes learning harder.

as children get older they are either told or systematically "work out" new "truths" the next step in digesting the truth

think about what you were taught as a child in infants.

universe is made of small blocks called atoms.

then at secondary school = atoms have electrons spinning round them in orbits.

then university well not orbits..more like clouds..etc

Rant over... but back to the point on page 1....santa DID exist albeit as St nicholas.... so Wrong of a teacher to say he doesn't

unless the teacher also says Jesus doesn't exist (because he too is dead)

the easter bunny thing for easter is simpler...it was the christan faiths way of destroying pagan festivals.... by encorporating them into the christian faiths calander and by such "diluting" them.... thats why most churches have i "think" is a yew tree because thats where pagan rites used to be held. so Chritians built their churches there to discourage gatherings.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:* ummm * if I may choose one....



I'm the naive boring one wink as I do have to agree with Sethis in *umm* 99.99%



@janice: someone puts a lie in your head - pick one - would you or would you not be grateful for someone to tell you the truth?



I would...



As right now kids in the west are very very very concerned with "spiderman" (sorry) and "jamba ringing tones" for their cellphone... this is not life threatening - sure not...



May I now post pictures of children in Africa? I saw one just recently where this kid... maybe 7... has his face stuck into a cows ass... really - after I surpressed my urge to throw up I wondered, why he was doing it? And for what reason ever, I thought: he shouldn't have to do it... shrug



To OUR children perpetuating these lies might not be life threatening. Our very own wish to close our eyes to the realities of life - to life of children (in India, Africa... ach - choose it yourself) - to live this desire out on our children - this I call life threatening... for children in Africa... or India...



We are one organism - this whole entire planet and while we live a very high standard life we do not pay the contributions necessary. While I tell stories of Santa to my child and pretend him to be REAL... the mother in xxx tells her child about Santa and that he's not visiting tonight shrug



But everyone is choosing what suits her/him best shrug



I will - when having the chance - tell my child that actually we are *Santa* by passing out on x-mas presents this year and donating that money to charity... wonder which child will go off and say: NO! wink



@Mynci: Valid in many parts, yes... so giving them abstractions makes their minds try to work it out? I believe the *real* world to be pretty abstract in many ways and my head still spins out on many *simple* realities... Hence I do not have to perpetuate lies... Myths is a different thing here!

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1136476137)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:And if anyone disagrees with me then they are wrong. And also idiots. And also have no dress sense.

Thanks for your appreciation of our points of view Tinks umm

Mynci: I am currently reading SoD 1 and have read the bit about "Lies to children". I mostly agree with what he says. But a belief in Santa isn't really a "lie to children" in the sense that TP uses it. It's not facilitating their education, and it's not a complex issue that needs to be broken down into digestible chunks. If a kid asks "Why do we give presents?" then what's wrong with "Because you care about the person you give them to"? It's that easy. Why do we need the myth? Rhetorical question. I've already addressed that.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


janice
janice

Member

Member Since: 3rd Jan 2006
Total posts: 34
Posted:it is hard to say who is "right" in this topic. i do see your point Tom and i also see your point Sethis. in my opinion, some truths are best kept until a child can actually deal with them. some need to be said asap. i am not imune to the difficulty children have in other countries, we sponsor a family every year. things like santa are a harmless joy a child can indulge in. in this they learn the concept of giving and caring for others. i think it is all in how you choose to deal with things and what your ideas are. there is no true right and wrong here, merely a differance in how we each see things. all of us will do what we feel is right for us as we all come from different backgrounds. in my own case, i asked my kids after reading this. both of them felt that it was not wrong to let them believe until they questioned it ( once they asked my answer was that he was only real as long as they believed and yes mommy is santa) both know that once they ask a question of me they get the truth as best as i know it. so in my case no harm done, they enjoyed their childhood beliefs.

=)


in goth we trust


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:hug there is no right or wrong...

or maybe the only wrong is to do something AGAINST what you deep inside believe is right...

Hppy nw yr

.... and welcome to Home of Poi smile


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


janice
janice

Member

Member Since: 3rd Jan 2006
Total posts: 34
Posted:Written by: FireTom

hug there is no right or wrong...

or maybe the only wrong is to do something AGAINST what you deep inside believe is right...

Hppy nw yr

.... and welcome to Home of Poi smile



very well put.


happy new year to you too and thank you


in goth we trust


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:Written by: Sethis

Thanks for your appreciation of our points of view Tinks umm



I stand firm by what I said about nurturing children. Sorry if I came about unappreciative, it's just my nurturing, mothering side talking. I'm all for a little make-believe, thats all hug


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:No worries hug

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Firetramp
Firetramp

old hand
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight
Member Since: 5th Sep 2005
Total posts: 896
Posted:I have such nice memories of when I was a kid, waking up on St. Nics day, rushing to the living room to see what "he" had brought for me. Sure, it broke my heart when years later I was told it was all done by my parents and "he" didn't exist. But I'm glad I had those years of fantasy and excitement. They were fun and now, I look back on them with happy thoughts. I wanna do the same for my children later, for sure!

Ask a question and be a fool for a minute...don't ask and be a fool your whole life.


Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: NYC

It always seemed to me that those that had the biggest trouble with the hypocracy of lies had the biggest trouble fitting in with society. It was always that kid that didn't understand why it was inappropriate to "call grandma fat because it was the truth" that had trouble resolving everything else.


True yes, (look at me!) but why is this a bad thing? Fitting into society is overrated. And I have to admit there's something to be said for the honesty at all costs types, altho I and most of my favourite people are one very slight step away from there...

Devils army and earthdragon, I'm having a REALLY hard time reading your posts, a little punctuation and capitalization would be cool... sorry, its just gone to the point where I'm not even sure what you mean sometimes...

And everyone, can you not teach about imagining and magic without saying "this is real" and then maybe they'll decide it isn't? There is so much magic waitingin reality, more which can be decided on or not... no sense making something they might not be able to belive in later, to my mind. A few seem to get this, but many seem to not, quite... I mean, let them choose about the unicorns. Make as much magic as possible. But not insisting on the unicorns, or santa, or what have you.

Children knowing the truth about the world isn't always a bad thing. Its worse for them then, yes, but sometimes they rise above it much faster for having got that period out of their way when they were younger. I think I'd rather that an older child confront the reality of the world at its worst when he or she was still with me, so I could help, rather than doing it really alone... but having said that, some of the best lessons are learned alone, and maybe thats selfish and overprotective. But that doesn't mean waiting till you're older is better. Fantasies of any kind fall hard if they ever can't be sustained....

Janice, paragraph breaks? Please? I couldn't get thru your post... frown

Firetom, about the having been lied to by people they love, I'm afraid I do agree for many children, not all, maybe not most, but many.

Tink, if you think fiction is the only way to strecth someone's imagination, perhaps you're naive or boring. I'm not trying to be mean here, oh dear I just SENSE i've not worded this right.. frown
But what I am trying to get accross is there's all sorts of things to imagine which are much more grounded in... well... at least not disproven anyway! And still more likely than santa or elves. But I'm not suggesting not opening the possibility, either, just not insisting on it!

And, last comment, make-belive doesn't have to mean completly made up. I've had tons and tons of more realistic make-belives and still have some. In fact I had relatives try to get me to quit playing make belive games when i was nine or ten angry i liked pretending to be a frog or a cat or whatever it was fun! silly relatives....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:Written by: Kyrian

Tink, if you think fiction is the only way to strecth someone's imagination, perhaps you're naive or boring. I'm not trying to be mean here, oh dear I just SENSE i've not worded this right.. frown


You're totally missing the point I'm trying to make.

Great writers of past and present have always known that fiction and imagination is important. From Poe and Twain, to Tolken and Rowling.

The historical background of the St Nicholas story is factual. It's a story about morals and compassion. Over the years, its been watered down, added to, concentrated and distilled, as many stories were before our technological revolution. With the internet up and running, I very much doubt that factual stories will turn into such myths, as they did when they were told by word of mouth.

In times before scientists could explain phenomena, people would believe certain things were magic. The rise and fall of the sun and moon etc. No one told them it was magic, they had only one thing that they could use to explain things with out scientific facts - their imagination. As time progressed and technology advanced, people could discover for themselves, the facts behind the fiction.

And just as our society evolved into a rational thinking machine, so will children's brains, when they are ready. A child's mind grasps the concept of magic easier than they would understand science. Especially at an early age. Of course there will always be the prodical few who will discover this earlier, maybe even reject the entire myth of magic. Still, the majority of children will not. But, as they grow, they will develop rational thought and learn for themselves, what is possible and what is not.

Even today, there are still things that science cannot fully explain. They call it a phenomenon. I call it Magic.


You're lucky that I waited til this morning to reply as I took great offense at your post. Family issues, My five year old made me cry lol long story...


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:YOU took offence?? About what, specifically?

And the difference is Tink, between every single other example of fiction that you've used and Santa is that no-one encourages a literal translation of that fiction. No-one tells their children that Harry potter is a real person. No-one tells their children that Mordor is a real country. Why then should they tell their children that Santa is real? If you say "It's to teach them a moral story" then I say "Why not read Aesop's Fables?" They have plenty of moral questions like the Tortoise and the Hare, but no impression that they should be considered fact.

Star Wars put magic into my childhood, I lost count of the amount of times I ran around with a stick pretending to be a Jedi. It was fun to pretend (and still is biggrin) but that doesn't necessitate a literal belief that the films are factual. Why is Santa so different?


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.


Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Oy, I knew it was going to be worded wrong but I hoped me saying that might prevent you from being offended!

Sethis said the most on topic thing which could be said here, I think, but to try to explain what I was *Actually* getting at...

Basically I was trying to say there's different subsets of imagination. There's things like "wouldn't it be cool if we could start a colony on mars" versus "Wouldn't it be fun to take a ride on a unicorn." Anything children want to run with should be encouraged. The difference is, I would insist that it is possible that we could build a colony on mars. Maybe not easily, or soon, but its not impossible. I'm not going to insisit its possible to ride a unicorn. Why? Because some children are going to be happy with that forever, but some children will see it as a betrayal later. Now, whatever the mother genuinly belives is also fair game, imo. (Although as they get older its good to let them know not everyone does, saves some fun making and some confusion- same as religion *should* be) But most mothers don't genuinly belive in santa. And some don't genuinly belive in unicorns, and in those cases the child needs to be the one taking the lead, or not, not hearing something which may be false to them later.

Of course, it won't bother some children. But it will bother others. So, as a general rule, I'd err on the side of caution. Its more fun to make them think anyway, in my opinion tongue (Do you want it to be? Yeah!! Well, then why not?)


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:I took offense because I'm far from boring.

Don't take offense that I took offense otherwise we'd all get defensive and say offensive things.

ummmmmmm where was I.... oh yeah!

I'm not saying tell them Santa is real. Tell them a tale of an old man. Let them decide to believe.

On another note, Even though I've been christened, I'm not a devout christian. I have my own beliefs. And I'm wiccan. I have cast spells in the past, but as I can't explain how they worked, I'll just say it was magic. Maybe, just as the bio chemical structures of plants, medicinal or not, nourishes us; burning them probably altered my brainwaves, influencing a flux in a hidden plane of the universe and it affected the world on a paranormal level, who knows. Maybe a scientist will be able to break it down and analyse it in the future, but for now, I'll live happily with the fact that I'm a raving lunatic that needs to be sectioned biggrin

Am I a freak? Probably. But i'm not a boring freak lmao


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:You missed my point with that statement!

But thats ok, I wasn't the one getting offended that you took offense or whatever was happening. It seems we agree anyway. I Hope your 5yo is sweet and happy. There's definetly stuff which can't be explained by science in my life too. And I'm too lazy to study it in a truly scientific manner.

I think Sethis and I are just concerned that people are going "No, Santa is real!" or whatever thats similar.

Stories are good. But I used to read dictionaries too. I'm terribly odd. Then again I made up something about everything. But my poor parents, reading the dictionary....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....


TinklePants
TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr
Member Since: 3rd Jul 2005
Total posts: 4217
Posted:Reading dictionaries is one of my favourite past times too!
I still do it.
Seriously!
Also phone books. dunno why tho...


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible


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