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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:If a teacher in a public school was informing your children about the way things really work in the real world, that would be a good thing, right? If the teacher was separating fact from fiction and dispelling myths, that would be the essence of education, would it not?

Now what if the teacher was telling your child there was no Santa Claus?

http://www.wgal.com/education/5535703/detail.html?rss=lan&psp=irresistible
br>
Can a teacher, or anyone for that matter, be in the wrong for telling children the truth? It's the parents who perpetuate the lie, as well as the existance of fictitious creatures such as the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and compassionate conservatives. But what if they were also helping to maintain the illusions of others? Like a different religious outlook, or a political view. They're all based on personal belief structures. Can you defend lying to your kids? Is it any wonder why, when they hit 13, they tend not to trust you?


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:Written by: Sethis

Written by: earthdragon

all the ppl that belive in angels and sprits and o dont forget all the G O D S that ppl still to this day base there lives around you cant prove thay are real just the same as santa



I stand by my belief that people who believe in angels and spirits and gods are believing in things that don't exist. Same as Santa. That they choose to base their lives around it seems slightly depressing to me, but hey, that's my opinion.

Oh, and there's an easy way to disprove santa's existence. Stand next to the tree all night. I bet in the morning presents won't have been miraculously delivered by santa. And if you've been "good" (how the heck do you define that anyway?) then Santa has some explaining to do...



i dont agree with any of it, if people didnt believe then where would the world be now? thats how people live and life keeps turning, with beliefs. u believe that santa isnt real and that gods arent so thats ur belief biggrin


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:If people didn't believe? In what? Gods? I think the world might be in a much better place. Religion simply accentuates the divide between cultures. And almost every religion has fanatics who will persist in trying to stir up violence and popularise fundamentalist and absolutist stances on everything from abortion to planting flowers.

Maybe if people believed in themselves and their humanity then the world might be a nice place to live in. You don't need a god to tell you what's right and wrong, you can work it out for yourself.

I agree that belief is an important part of living, I never denied that. I denied that belief in gods or Santa was constructive. I believe that I'll get paid at the end of the day, which is why I go to work.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:but wat if like people on the streets happy thinkin that there is a god, so ur saying u want to take that away.......

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:I bet the Spanish/Roman Inquisition were very happy thinking they were doing "God's Work". I would certainly take that away from them.

Suicide Bombers are happy to think that there is a Heaven for them to go to. I'd love to take that away.

George Bush thinks that God talks to him. I'll let you work out what I'd like to do about that.

People on the street may well be very happy, and go to church and have very nice gardens, but when you get right down to it, it's not them that are causing OR solving any of the problems. I'm sure if you're the kind of person who believes in God and does nice things then you would do nice things anyway. You don't need a fictional deity to either make you happy or make you do nice things for people. You can do that simply by following your own morality.

But then, we're so off topic we can't see the lines anymore. System reset. Back to the point in hand...

(PM me if you want to discuss the god thing)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Libra
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

Libra

member
Location: Norway

Total posts: 47
Posted:I find it difficult to go back to the point after reading some of the replys to this topic..

Religion is a tool used to control masses of people. It's a tool to win power. Offcourse!! -but that doesn't mean the religion itself is bad.. -it's just so easy to abuse.. killing in God's name or.. holy wars.. ehh ok? So Bush thinks God is speaking to him? And people believe him? They think God gave him a hint saying something like "George you're the man! Send those soldiers out there to kill or die! Blood is good George and so is oil.. and Power and money and.." Is it bush or his God that's gone loco? ..and I must say, wow those suicidebombers are optimistic thinking they'll be awarded in heaven for their actions.. But don't get me wrong.. I personally don't have enough knowledge about religions to condemn any of them. I just condemn the people abusing it..

I personally will never settle down believing there's nothing else to life than what's so obvious.. I believe we all have a soul, yes i do believe that.. I would never be able to say that God does not exist and Buddha was never here.. I don't know that.. Who knows? Noone knows, it's all about believing isn't it?

What's so wrong about letting kids believe there's a Santa? has anyone had a really traumatic experience finding out it was all a lie? Did it make you never trust your parents again??

librarolleyes

Enjoy Christmas! (there wouldnt be one if it wasn't for someone once believed they saw a son of a God was born!)


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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

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Posted:i agree....but it just depends on how ur parents delt with this with u as a kid

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr, Unit...

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Written by: Libra

Enjoy Christmas! (there wouldnt be one if it wasn't for someone once believed they saw a son of a God was born!)



There would, It would just still be called Yuletide wink

Seasonal traditions have been around longer than Christmas smile
I could go into great depth here - but I won't, i'll just quote...

Written by: Skulduggery (from Doc Lightning's Intro)

...HERE and HERE for a bit of info on Yule.



smile ubbrollsmile


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:hehe mmmm

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Libra
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

Libra

member
Location: Norway

Total posts: 47
Posted:Hey TinklePants! cheers for the info.. that was actually quite interesting to read.. as I am a scandinavian myself i sholuld have known a bit about it myself.. we are celebrating "Jul" here, but I've never bother finding out were the word came from..But you did and now I know.. thannk you!

God Jul to all of you!bouncebounce2


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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

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Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

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Posted:mmmmmm

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Str8Jakit


Str8Jakit

Dealing in Perception & Probability
Location: On the edge of sunrise and sun...

Total posts: 135
Posted:you have a verry valid point Pometheus. how do you validate lieing to your children? well the answer is easy for me, innocence. my daughter is 6, and the kids in her class have started to tell her the "no santa" thing, and to be honest, it kind of breaks my heart. now i know that she will not believe forever. hell i'll be happy if i can pull it off one more year. but being a parent, and seeing that "innocence lost" syndrom, i can tell you it's rough.

after they stop believing in santa, the easter bunny etc. their childhood is gone, and it won't be back. yes i lie to my daughter about santa and the rest. yes i am, in a way, wrong for doing so. but it's keeping her innocence. soon she will realize how "the world really works" as it was put. and she will see the negative asspect of society. but for now, i will continue to lie.

remeber, it's not santa the person that i want to see live on forever in my daughter. it's that giving spirit, that kindness that only comes once a year. that's what "santa" is.

as for the rest of them, well......how exactly did we go from the death and resurection of christ, to eggs and bunnies?


Legal and illegal are a point of view. All that matters is morality.

If there's a shadow in your life, then there is also sunshine. Perception is everything.

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr, Unit...

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Eggs and bunnies are a part of Pagan spring celebrations Which have merged with christian belief over the last couple of millenia, like most of the pagan seasonal traditions.

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

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Posted:i agree with Str8Jakit.... but be careful

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3999
Posted:biggrin exactly... but not going to go there as it will be off topic ubblol hug

Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:"What have we done with innocence?
It disappeared with time and never made much sense."
-Monkey Wrench (Foo Fighters)

What is innocence? It implies many things. Not being guilty of something, sexual innocence, childlike naivete...

You're lying to your child to perpetuate his/her ignorance... how is that justifiable? Odds are that maybe he/she is being laughed at by the kids who all know that Santa isn't real.

Written by: Str8Jakit

after they stop believing in santa, the easter bunny etc. their childhood is gone...




No, it isn't... how many 13-14 year olds do you know who believe in Santa umm ? They're still children. I'd say that by the final year of primary school, we only had one person in our year who believed in Santa. Of course we were still children. We were 10 years old.

You lie to your kid about divorce, you're a bad parent. You lie to your kid about Santa and you're preserving the "Magic". Which is it people? Is it ok to lie to your kids or not? I'm pretty sure it's not.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:ditto clap

valid and true sethis!

a lie is a lie - "the spirit of christmas" actually is not a lie... santa is not a lie - he existED! he is still remembered and his rememberance is celebrated! do you actually tell your children that jesus lives? umm


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:well you do not have children do you sethis, your talking to someone who does and i agree, i remeber my friends little sister finding out about sab=nta and she was in tears because her parents told her that he wasnt real and she hated it!

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:What does me having children have to do with anything? I can just as easily talk about how I plan to raise any children I care to have. umm

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3999
Posted:Bloody hell guys its called having an imagination, teaching your kids that they can believe in things if they want to. The world is much better if they believe in the magical side of things rather than the grim truth of the world. Kids have to grow up far too quickly whets wrong with that? all you have to do is turn on/look at/be aware of the news and you see all the hatred in the world, people killing each other, people including children dying for no reason other than the ignorance of Man. Children go to school and either go through or see bullying, other children stabbed by other children, it makes their world seem scary, unpredictable, they have real life pressure put on them from as young as 3 or when ever they hit nursery age, having to reach guidelines and targets that adults set in order to gain "Status" and money.
I would rather tell stories that make my child life seem more fun and full of magick rather than the reality and truth of how much this world sucks


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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Suibom


Suibom

addict
Location: Oregon, USA

Total posts: 577
Posted:Good words, GF..

The world needs more magic..


Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.

Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:well said and sethis imaganing having kids isnt the same

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:But GF, surely teaching your kids all about fantasy worlds doesn't exactly help prepare them for all the sith they'll have to go through as soon as they hit school?

Like it or not, the world is a nasty depraved place, and kids have to LIVE in it. More than that, they have to prosper. If you don't equip your kids to deal with it, then they're going to have problems.

Then there's the argument that childhood is an invention of our culture. Just look at how "children" were expected to behave in times gone by... coal mining, hunting, military service... I'm not saying that those are good things for 9 year olds to be doing, but it's only relatively recently that childhood has become something significant and "Golden".

I have an imagination. I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy. I love mythology. But I don't believe that it is REAL. I acknowledge that there are MORALS to the stories, and that they can teach us things. But I don't believe that "Magic" or "Gods" are real. They don't have to be. It's the same with Santa, you can see the moral (Spirit of Christmas or whatever) but you don't need to believe that he exists to know that.

@Devilsarmy: Why not? I'm not "Imagining" having kids, I'm saying what I will tell them when I *do* have them. I fully plan to have children. How does your position as a parent change your perspective? As I recall, you said you didn't like having parents lie to their children, so why are you so keen to lie to yours?


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:yes but if they didnt believe in a magical side then the world would be more f***** up then it already is! wait til u have kids then you will see... imagening isnt anything like the real thing

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Oct 2004

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3999
Posted:Written by: Sethis

But GF, surely teaching your kids all about fantasy worlds doesn't exactly help prepare them for all the sith they'll have to go through as soon as they hit school?



Actually it has and its been done well, they understand things alot better than most. My oldest has just started high school and is 100% aware what goes on in the world, is doing more than well in his classes and couldn't do himself or me more proud. he wasn't brought up in the most ideal of situations either and learning first hand how cruel people can be to others. Without the magic in his life that bring enjoyment, wonder and the thoughts that all your dreams are possible,he would more than likely of given up on everything by now, not had any dreams of what he wants to do when he is older, or have the ambitions to do well, to travel the world and to live his life.

Written by: Sethis

Like it or not, the world is a nasty depraved place, and kids have to LIVE in it. More than that, they have to prosper. If you don't equip your kids to deal with it, then they're going to have problems.



My son has seen and been through, and seen more than most adults i know when it comes to how nasty the world is.

Written by: Sethis

Then there's the argument that childhood is an invention of our culture. Just look at how "children" were expected to behave in times gone by... coal mining, hunting, military service... I'm not saying that those are good things for 9 year olds to be doing, but it's only relatively recently that childhood has become something significant and "Golden".



i unfortuantly can not help the past history of childhood but like with all history it is there to be learned from. Children are no longer here just to preserve the family name or to bring an extra income into the home i totaly understand that. so why are you thinking about having kids if your going to bring them into such a nasty depraved place? are you planning on changing the whole world before hand? or are you going to tell them that by the time they are old that chances of getting into college, Uni the workplace is going to be so competative that it could end up that they don't have the carrer they want? or that with the rise in population and polution we may not even have a planet that can sustain us? That they will go through life scared of what others will do or think if they do not conform to what that culter thinks is the norm?

Written by: Sethis

I have an imagination. I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy. I love mythology. But I don't believe that it is REAL. I acknowledge that there are MORALS to the stories, and that they can teach us things. But I don't believe that "Magic" or "Gods" are real. They don't have to be. It's the same with Santa, you can see the moral (Spirit of Christmas or whatever) but you don't need to believe that he exists to know that.



Every one is entitled to their beliefs and if we were all the same life would be more than boring, so I take it when you do have kids your going to home school them then? Because unfortuently for you school, TV, toys and life are full of these lies to help encourage them learn and get enjoyment out of life. i don't think i ever want to meet a child that has no magic in their lives or who knows the truth about the world.


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:go froggy *starts doing a cheer dance* go froggy

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:*sigh* @ devilsarmy: Do you actually have anything else YOU would like to add? umm Care to answer my question to you?

GF:

Written by: GothFrogette

and is 100% aware what goes on in the world




I assume by this he is aware that fictional characters don't exist?

Written by: GothFrogette

Without the magic in his life that bring enjoyment, wonder and the thoughts that all your dreams are possible,he would more than likely of given up on everything by now, not had any dreams of what he wants to do when he is older, or have the ambitions to do well, to travel the world and to live his life.



I don't deny that imagination and make believe play an important part of childhood. I have always said that fantasy is a wonderful thing so long as the child is not deluded into thinking that the fiction is "real".

Written by: GothFrogette

so why are you thinking about having kids if your going to bring them into such a nasty depraved place? are you planning on changing the whole world before hand?




No, I'm planning on changing the world by *having* children. If there are a few more people who have a sound moral compass and some dreams, (as I hope my children will have) then the world will be a better place. Maybe (however unlikely) they can help the world out a little.

Written by: GothFrogette

or are you going to tell them that by the time they are old that chances of getting into college, Uni the workplace is going to be so competative that it could end up that they don't have the career they want? or that with the rise in population and polution we may not even have a planet that can sustain us? That they will go through life scared of what others will do or think if they do not conform to what that culture thinks is the norm?




First off, I'd like to think that they know all they need to know about the workplace, the planet and whatever. Secondly, my children (I hope) will be as individualistic as I am, be that a good or bad thing. THIRDLY I don't see what any of the above has to do with belief in Santa. confused

Written by: GothFrogette

Because unfortuently for you school, TV, toys and life are full of these lies to help encourage them learn and get enjoyment out of life.




Examples? What "Lies" are told to children that help them live fuller and more enjoyable lives? I've never come across an English teacher who insisted that fiction was reality. I've never come across a science teacher who claimed that dragons are real (however much I might hope...). When I was younger, our TV staple was "Words and Pictures", "Playdays" and "Fireman Sam". Then we progressed to "Captain Scarlet", "Thunderbirds". Secondary School saw "Star Trek" (TNG, DS9 and Voyager), "The Champions", "Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased)" and many others. All of it is fiction, most of it taught me something, yet curiously enough I was never convinced any of it was real (well, after I hit 5-6 years old that is).

You yourself said that your eldest has:

Written by: GothFrogette

seen and been through, and seen more than most adults i know when it comes to how nasty the world is.




Is his life less enjoyable? Does he still believe in Santa? Do you think that the magic in his life came from what you were teaching him with fairy tales, or the literal belief that the fiction was real in every sense of the world?

Finally:

Written by: GothFrogette

My oldest has just started high school and is 100% aware what goes on in the world, is doing more than well in his classes and couldn't do himself or me more proud...




I'm glad. Really I am. Anytime I hear about a parent who is satisfied with their child then I breathe a sigh of thanks. There are so many parents who constantly demand more and more of their children out there, and I'm glad to know I'm not talking to one of them. hug

I think we're agreeing here for the most part. I plan to give my children some magic in their lives. I plan to tell them fairy tales. I plan to help them understand and learn so many different things. Just like you, I suspect. What I don't plan to do is tell them that fictional characters (Be it Centaurs, Santa, Yakshini, Demons or Titans) are real, in the sense that they DO exist, HAVE existed or WILL exist. Because I will not lie to my child's face and watch their confidence in me crumble when they find out what I've told them is not true. smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:so what was your question?

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Me

How does your position as a parent change your perspective? As I recall, you said you didn't like having parents lie to their children, so why are you so keen to lie to yours?




Or you could just have read my post...


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Christmas is a merge of many different celebrations....

Actually if you study the implementation of the roman catholic church and take a firm look at the individual pratices, festivals and customs - I will find it inevitable to get awareness, that modern christianity is a blend of pagan and roman belief systems and a number of religions....

pontifex maximus for example (the actual name of the pope in latin) means high priest - which was the title of the former high priest of the ancient roman religion...

the more one studies theology, the less one is able to believe in some figure called god - but more and more referring to the background meaning of the word, the practices and underlying intentions...

is it bad to explain this angle to children? confused

is it really "taking away the magic"???


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2984
Posted:well i really dont know but im not keen on being lied to but i have seen alot of young children (about 4-9) being told that santa didnt exist and they were very broken on the subject, i wasnt bothered with santa/christmas i was far too concerntrated on what was going on between my parents (they split up) so santa existing seemed nothing, i never got anything from him after 6 because everything was hectic then i started getting stuff again at 11 but by then i knew santa was a lie but i didnt say anything. does that answer your question?

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