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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:If a teacher in a public school was informing your children about the way things really work in the real world, that would be a good thing, right? If the teacher was separating fact from fiction and dispelling myths, that would be the essence of education, would it not?

Now what if the teacher was telling your child there was no Santa Claus?

http://www.wgal.com/education/5535703/detail.html?rss=lan&psp=irresistible
br>
Can a teacher, or anyone for that matter, be in the wrong for telling children the truth? It's the parents who perpetuate the lie, as well as the existance of fictitious creatures such as the easter bunny, the tooth fairy and compassionate conservatives. But what if they were also helping to maintain the illusions of others? Like a different religious outlook, or a political view. They're all based on personal belief structures. Can you defend lying to your kids? Is it any wonder why, when they hit 13, they tend not to trust you?


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:xActly!

Good valid points for accuracy... !

But maybe we all have to go to the laundromat and have your brains washed...

On the other hand it's maybe good that they lie at all the children about easter bunny and santa claus - because by that they learn the lesson: never trust any information that you haven't rendered yourself...

nice headline by the way...
weavesmiley weavesmiley weavesmiley


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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ImmortalAngel
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

Scientist!
Location: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

Total posts: 578
Posted:Written by: FireTom

On the other hand it's maybe good that they lie at all the children about easter bunny and santa claus - because by that they learn the lesson: never trust any information that you haven't rendered yourself...



I'd like to know how many adults in the real world have actually learned that lesson by now -.- let alone kids who are still in school.

This is a hard subject to be on any one side about -.-
I know that I will end up going along with the santa and easter bunny myths with my own daughter, half out of tradition, half so that she can learn about the giving spirit.

On the other hand, spreading 'lies' like that shouldn't really be encouraged -.- least of all with little children. What happens when they find out santa isn't real and see it as ok to lie about things?

I think the only way to get around this is to convert to festivus...


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:what santa isnt real?!?! *goes in a corner and cries*

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:I never really believed in Santa and hopefull neither will my kids.

Out of all the fictional/mythological creatures that I could tell my children exist, then I'm far more likely to tell them tales of Centaurs, Minotaurs and Pegasi than I am about some fat bloke wearing red and delivering presents.

I'll teach them about The Nativity and the tradition of giving presents, but I won't tell them a fictional character is real.

And I'm glad that the teacher didn't face diciplinary action... what would the charge be, telling children the truth?? rolleyes

They'll be giving them sex education any day now... wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted:the thougtht of a guy coming into the house while the children are sleeping and going into their rooms scared my oldest so i have always told them that we follow on a tradtion. they know that others have brought them gifts, rather than thinking that there is a very rich man out htere going to get everything they want and it also helps them to be more greatful for what they get. they also have to say thank you to the givers.

Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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misscorinthian
SILVER Member since Sep 2005

misscorinthian

old hand
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 784
Posted:My kids outright asked me about santa- who was he and was he real.

I told them that I am their santa, and said that I am real therefore so is santa. The response "Yay! mummy is father christmas!" No dissapointment, no lies. I also happen to be the tooth fairy:)


XLenX

Devoted although mostly absent owner of the 1, the original... Asena

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DoktorSkell
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

DoktorSkell

addict
Location: Van Diemans Land

Total posts: 475
Posted:Written by: misscorinthian

My kids outright asked me about santa- who was he and was he real.

I told them that I am their santa, and said that I am real therefore so is santa. The response "Yay! mummy is father christmas!" No dissapointment, no lies. I also happen to be the tooth fairy:)



Best answer to this question i have ever heard


Fair luna bright, fair luna moon
it shines at night but fades too soon
fair luna moon, fair luna bright
forever we dance
we dance under starlight

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted:Written by: misscorinthian

I also happen to be the tooth fairy:)



hehe me too


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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FireByNite
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

FireByNite

Are you up for it??
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 349
Posted:Written by: misscorinthian


My kids outright asked me about santa- who was he and was he real.



I told them that I am their santa, and said that I am real therefore so is santa. The response "Yay! mummy is father christmas!" No dissapointment, no lies. I also happen to be the tooth fairy:)



That's exactly what I've done as my kids have asked.

Well done smile



Bak to topic, I don't agree with the teachers telling 1st graders that "Santa" isn't real. I would prefer they leave it up to the kids imagination eg kid: is Santa real? teacher: do you beleive he's real?



PS love the heads up bout thread being AO


Are you up for it?
wink;)

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I think that some things should be left to the parents. and im not against kids being told about santa "existing". I wasnt mad at my parents for lying. I dont know anyone who was. i think its just a part of being a child and in this day-and-age where many parents complain that childhoods are becoming shorter and shorter, that taking the chance to believe in Santa away from them just aids in killing childhood.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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GothFrogette
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

GothFrogette

grumpy poorly froggy
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 3999
Posted:Written by: Rouge Dragon

I think that some things should be left to the parents. and im not against kids being told about santa "existing". I wasnt mad at my parents for lying. I dont know anyone who was. i think its just a part of being a child and in this day-and-age where many parents complain that childhoods are becoming shorter and shorter, that taking the chance to believe in Santa away from them just aids in killing childhood.



agreed, i think my kids even though they really know its not santa we still go and see him, write lists, put things out for him on Yule eve (Santa come on Yule in our house)its part of the magic of the season. And although we don't do christmas we still have the santa part for the kids


Life's too short to worry about where you put your marshmallows

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:as it stands on the vote on that website, 34,000 people think that the teacher should face disciplinary action.

still, kansas still have them beat in my book wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:I agree cole, if people agree a teacher can tell kids santa doesn't exist can you imagine the next steps... oh, god doesn't exist (based on physical evidence) etc etc. Can you imagine the uproar from the religious types...

the double standard of belief,

I agree kids should know the truth but when are they old enough to know the TRUTH. and how much of it is good to give them.

a beloved pet dies....you tell your 3 year old...
nothing
he's gone to heaven (possibly a lie)
he's dead and never coming back because he is buried in the garden rotting or been thrown in the trash.

Lying to kids is important to teach them things... if you scrutinise childhood carefully how many times were you lied to to soften blows or helpmake understanding easier? even if it's lyiing by ommision.

the teacher had no right to tell kids there was no santa at the age of 5 with out consulting parents...


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Mynci I have to catagorically disagree with you here.

When I was a kid then I got told something along the lines that "All things die, they just slowly fade away and become part of everything (Decomposition)". This softened the blow (because the pet/relative lived on in everything else) but also was not a lie.

A teacher should be able to tell kids that God doesn't exist, Santa doesn't exist, the Sandman doesn't exist etc etc as long as s/he makes it clear that it is his/her own opinion and nothing more. Because after all, Santa might exist, huh? rolleyes

And there is a difference between lying by omission and deliberately telling lies to children.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Firetramp


Firetramp

old hand
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight

Total posts: 896
Posted:The verb "lying" sounds soo harsh! Most kids enjoy looking forward to Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy etc. coming. Why else would they (because trust me, some do redface) keep pretending they believe in them, even after they've found out. As some of you have mentioned, it is part of a tradition. Should we stop all the "lying"? Should magic and other shows of the kind be made illegal as those people are all big "liars"? Paul Daniels, David Copperfield, Derren Brown... People pay money to go see them and get fooled. And we know we are (don't we?) but we do kind of like believing in things we know are not real. It's part of our nature and it's part of the fun.

So, no, that teacher shouldn't have told those kids Santa doesn't exist. It was not his task to do so (especially not as a music teacher). Should know better too, being a teacher. But, no, he doesn't be punished neither as it was not a criminal offence, it was a mistake.


Ask a question and be a fool for a minute...don't ask and be a fool your whole life.

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Lets not forget these stories of mythical/legendary persons, fact or fiction, encapsulate the spirit of an event/season/personality trait, for example:

Jesus was a samaritan,

Santa gave to hope and happiness to children,

the stories of David and goliath

etc.

They inspire people to better themselves.



Its not a question of lying, its just a bent truth that over the years has morphed from a tale of a real man and his spirit to an immortal man who brings gifts.



I suppose the right time to tell a child the "truth" would be when he/she understands the meaning of spirit and tradition.



So if I get the dreaded question off my kids, I'll tell them the story saint nick, and how his spirit has lived on through the centuries through a story and a tradition of gift giving.

EDITED_BY: TinklePants (1134999012)


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:I'm far more likely to tell them tales of Centaurs, Minotaurs and Pegasi than I am about some fat bloke wearing red and delivering presents.

Bloody well hope so too... The fat guy in red with the white beard was first found in coca-cola adverts.


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Written by: Firetramp

Should magic and other shows of the kind be made illegal as those people are all big "liars"? Paul Daniels, David Copperfield, Derren Brown... People pay money to go see them and get fooled. And we know we are (don't we?) but we do kind of like believing in things we know are not real. It's part of our nature and it's part of the fun.




That's the difference - you pay to go and get fooled, you know that the trickery is there, it's part of the performance.

I don't imagine many children pay for the priviledge of having their parents lie to them in order to blackmail them into behaving.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Written by: TheBovrilMonkey

I don't imagine many children pay for the priviledge of having their parents lie to them in order to blackmail them into behaving.



I see it more of a reward for good behavior, a bribe, rather then blackmail, where as they have no choice in the matter. Kids still misbehave and still they get gifts.


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Firetramp


Firetramp

old hand
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight

Total posts: 896
Posted:Yeah, when I talk about Santa, I mean Saint Nicholas, celebrated on the 6th of December and quite slim.

Ask a question and be a fool for a minute...don't ask and be a fool your whole life.

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:I think any teacher telling any child what is and isn't is a very backward way of going about things. Why doesn't the teacher teach the children to think for themselves and try to work out the world by observation and rational thought. They don't have to say anything, just host a debate and let the kids make up their own minds. Ok, I admit, that will never happen, and I think 5 year olds are a bit too young for that sort of thing.

Still, I think that encouraging the kids to think for themselves from a young age is far better than saying x=y.

Richard Dawkins wrote an open letter to his 10 year old daughter that I think is very applicable to this issue...:

http://www.mysteryinvestigators.com/richard/dawkins.htm


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:My mother (and me, to a certain extent) was and is against the idea of having to bribe your kids to do anything at all. "Behave or Santa won't bring you presents" is stupid. Since when did people get what they deserved? All that leads me to ask is why bullies get presents (and generally bring them into school and show them off to everyone and anyone).

Same for getting money from your parents for passing exams. Someone I know got around 300 for his GCSE results, and they were worse than mine. I got nothing. All that did was make me a bit resentful, because my parents can't afford to give me that much money. However I'm the one who went into 6th Form and is now at University having the time of my life so I guess it balances out.

Children should do things (like behave) because of their respect for their parents and their own sense of conscience, not because they want material rewards.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:in the words of Eric Cartman...

Written by: Eric Cartman of South Park, USA

Respect ma authoritay!



Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:Thread needs "Flying Spagetti Monster."

Google it wink


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:Don't need to, Kael- I say, bring back pirates, then we'll all be happy!!!

Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:*comes out the corner* so is there anything else that my parents lied about?

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

as it stands on the vote on that website, 34,000 people think that the teacher should face disciplinary action.

still, kansas still have them beat in my book wink


cole. x



It's funny that the Religious Right is actually launching a pretty large "Anti Santa" campaign since he's taking the credit from the real Christmas (The Celebration of the birth of Christ)...

So I guess only MODERATELY conservatives would be for punishing a teacher that exposes Santa.

Then again, in all fairness, the issue is really 'age appropriate truth'. I mean, if a 6 year old asks where babies come from I don't think it's appropriate to show them 'the truth' by popping in a porn video. Nor do I think showing footage of the Holocaust would be appropriate for kindergarden either.

If a kindergardener is going to the Doctor's office to get a shot on friday but the parents say "Please don't tell him until friday because we don't want him to worry until then" I don't think you have a social obligation to "the truth".

Perhaps Santa is a much much much simpler version of that.

Besides, at least St. Nick has some historical truth as opposed to this Jesus guy... wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:but if u think about it some children kinda well like the feeling that if there good all year that they will get something but then again if you lie to children then what do we expect that they are gonna do? lie back, thats what i thought it was a case of well my parents lied to me so why cant i lie to them

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I don't think full disclosure is always appropriate for children.

I lie to children for a living. I teach oversimplified chemistry models that are no longer true. But I think it's the best way of teaching them the material. Then when you get to more advanced models you can show the flaws within the initial models.

I think it's much more appropriate to teach children when to tell the truth and when to remain quiet or even lie in extreme circumstances like personal safety.

It always seemed to me that those that had the biggest trouble with the hypocracy of lies had the biggest trouble fitting in with society. It was always that kid that didn't understand why it was inappropriate to "call grandma fat because it was the truth" that had trouble resolving everything else.

I figured out Santa pretty early. Actually, I don't remember ever believing in him. I remember my uncle dressing up as Santa and trying to convince me but I was like "WTF, it's CLEARLY Uncle David!"

On another side note, after 9/11 my stepmother who runs a preschool had some interesting conversations about how to talk with a preschooler about the event. I think in the case of the child's emotional stability it would be appropriate to lie.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Devilsarmy
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Devilsarmy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Nuneaton

Total posts: 2984
Posted:mmm i kinda agree but if parents are going to lie to children then they cant expect us not to lie back

Actually back on HoP guys ...

Owned By MiG
Owns Fyre and Mods_Stole_My_Name

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