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Jez
addict
Location: UK, London
Member Since: 11th Apr 2001
Total posts: 642
Posted:Another thread designed to make you think.

First I have to start with a bit of background. Phaedrus was a philosopher of last century made famous by the 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenaince' book. He theorises that the world can be split into two forms Romantic and Classic. I think this is a relevant topic for those reading the jedi set thread where people have voiced an opinion that learning very hard moves is no more pleasurable to watch from an audience perspective than easier moves.

Anyway I shall define these terms so as to make it easier for you to decide.

Classical thinking:

This is thinking in terms of underlying form so for instance if you are viewing poi, you may see it in terms of moves, transitions, the type of poi they are using or the what grips they use etc...

Romantic thinking

This is thinking in terms of how things look from a beauty or ugly perspective. So using the same example you would see the poi circles and the patterns they make, you would see the style of dance the performer is using and how the emotions it may invoke.

So in summary Romantic thinking is more about emotion and classical thinking is more about technical.

Obviously we use both in our daily lives but which side do you think you personally sway towards?

[ 22. November 2002, 11:19: Message edited by: Jez ]


'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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Jade Lynx
member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...
Member Since: 19th May 2002
Total posts: 239
Posted:I am a genuine split on this one...

Some things i regard more in Classical mode, others in Romantic. And there are some things i view in each at different times, or even both at once...

Good thread, Jez.


We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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Kaethe
member
Location: Seattle, WA
Member Since: 18th Nov 2002
Total posts: 21
Posted:I would say that in general, I'm a Romantic. Everything is beauty. And there is beauty in everything. Strange that my day job is software development (was.. and will be again, once I have a job again).

--Kaethe--We didn't start the fire..

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:I generally choose content over form.

Raphael


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Rozi
100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Definitely a romantic. I find myself being scarily like a maths teacher I had in high school. Now, maths is generally considered to be classical thinking, but this guy used to rave about the "beauty" of a particular mathematical proof, meaning the simplicity and elegance.

I love the technical aspect, when it adds to the aesthetic.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:Romantic.

Mildly shocked at jez being clever - n reading stuff and knowing things etc (especially after i met him) - but romantic none the less.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Jez
addict
Location: UK, London
Member Since: 11th Apr 2001
Total posts: 642
Posted:Cantus that sucks. I have a decent IQ and a whole load of intelligence but most of the time just wanna have fun!!! But in answer to my own question, I consider myself to be a classical thinker. I like to be able to view things as they are and not what they appear to be.

'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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Paddy
back from the dead...sort of
Location: 4341'N 7938'W
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2002
Total posts: 884
Posted:tricky...

I'd say both appeal to me pretty equally. I'm not trying to be noncomittal...I've thought this through quite a bit recently. basically poi appeals to me in such a way that I find I can't only look at it one way.

I've always thought poi is neat because of the geometry of it. You have to be able to predict and control the position of two chains in 3D space through time...kind of like building four dimensional object and trying to make sure no edges cross as you go.

I've always been a pretty visiospatial kid so that's really what appeals to me.

I like poi for the same reasons I do architechture...they're both about finding aesthetic beauty in geometery. and in both cases form and function are inseperable.

you can't have the beauty of poi if you can't do any tricks, and conversely the flow of a simple trick is intrinsically beautiful.


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dromepixie
dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 1463
Posted:I am studying and trying to addapt my thinking to Taoist ideas (although I dont take all of it as truth) and I try to keep a balance!

That way you dont fall off or get stuck... Much like the analogy in Cass's thread about the bird!

Much lvoe and hugs to all may the balance keep us shining and happy,
Drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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Jez
addict
Location: UK, London
Member Since: 11th Apr 2001
Total posts: 642
Posted:Actually according to Taoist ideals this romantic classical split is joined by one force called quality. Quality is the point at which romantic and classical joins together. It is quite complex taking in Hume's and Kant's philophies. Using an a priori image (romantic) and at the point of seeing quality a classical image is formed. This is all used in Taoist beliefs although they use different terms but by making careful substition of their eastern terms and replacing them with our western terms of quality, romantic and classical then it reads exactly the same.

You may find it a good exercise to read through taoist beliefs in that way to help understanding.

Phaedrus believes that by eliminating the romantic classical split in the way we think, then we should be able to progress a lot further and have a lot less people afraid of technology and also less people afraid of art. This split if eliminated breaks down barriers which can then be used to allow people to understand each other better.

All rather complex stuff, but I am very interested in it.


'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, let's see...I have an M.S. and I'm working on my M.D.

Hmmmm....wonder what that makes me?

*Hint: not Romantic!*


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I am a Romantic thinker with Classical undertones.
(I am a libra! ).

I look at everything in terms of loveliness, and everything is lovely in it's own way, from the proper perspective. However, everything has it's technical side to be concidered as well, and I do not think in object exclusivity normally, so....

While a flower is lovely I don't necessarily want to take it home because I know it will die thus shortening the term of it's beauty, and restricting it to whom I would choose to share it with, instead of being out there for everyone. I see the beauty of the flower first, but fully understand it's technical needs, so then don't pluck it.

Romantic with Classical undertones. Does that make sense?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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FireMikeZ
FireMikeZ

Laguna dude
Location: Laguna, California, US
Member Since: 24th Jul 2002
Total posts: 1438
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Pele:

Romantic with Classical undertones. Does that make sense?absolutely, my gorgeous, divinely flaring gorge!

my own scales never have only 2 trays in their balance tho, i'm sculpturally (classical) intuitive (romantic) from a more-than-typical perspective (conceptualist + metaphysical in its formal sense) whose (inevitable, and can be rich) sensory filters are engaging (positivist + stoic + idealist + pragmatist + experientialist + associative + relational) yet unrelativistically undogmatic ([i.e. take stands myself without assuming they are desirable for others] post-modernist + [nondiscriminatory] universalist + [without ultimate certainties] subjectivist + para-agnostic + experimentalist [rather than determining certainties])

quote:Originally posted by dromepixie:
I am studying and trying to addapt my thinking to Taoist ideas (although I dont take all of it as truth) and I try to keep a balance!balance for me has more than a mere 2 sides, and usually, i observe, is way assymetrical at that!

myself, highly romantic, staunchly classical, and a lot more any time one of those begins to kick in, bringing the rest with it in various proportions. may be notable for strength of the influence of the key few or more in engagement at any point.

with all my love,

~ Mikie

[ 23. November 2002, 16:49: Message edited by: FreMke ]


molten cheers,

~ FireMike

FireMikeZ@yahoo.com (personal messages welcome, no promo spam, please!)
Laguna, California, US

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:I think i agree wityh pele. altho i occasionally get very classical. but more romantic with classical undertones thahn not. great thread.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Cantus
Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road
Member Since: 30th Jul 2001
Total posts: 15965
Posted:quote:divinely flaring gorge ????

Please define gorge Mikie.


"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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ShawnF
member
Location: Springfield, MA - USA
Member Since: 16th Dec 2000
Total posts: 162
Posted:I am also a libra...

I try to have a combination of things. I think the comment about unity with by way of quality makes a lot of sense. I've seen critisism both of people doing "easy" tricks but with a lot of style, and people doing difficult tricks but standing there like a rock. I generally appreciate both of these things.. they show a level of quality.

I do think that what is emphasized does depend on the situation. If you are on a stage trying to entertain people, just technical quality probably won't cut it. But if you are doing it for yourself or for people that understand the difficult, then style may not be necessary.

When learning things I do try make an effor to smooth things out and look for visually pleasing combinations and movements. However, I also tend to look at things from points of symmetry and how they technically work. I want to understand what is going on and figure out if there are variations based on the same thing. Generally it doesn't cut it for me to be able to just do something without knowing how I do it.

On an aside, I think that is why I usually do pretty good for teaching people through text. It is a lot easier to teach someone when you really know how things work...

I think fractals are beautiful on both a visual level and for what they represent (even though a lot of that stuff is over my head..heh).

Balance is the key...
Shawn


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Pink...?
Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There
Member Since: 6th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6140
Posted:I would say, a mixture of both, but slightly more Romantic thinker than Classical.

Alice


Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

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Bendy
member
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Member Since: 29th Aug 2001
Total posts: 750
Posted:Classical thinker. I think therefore I think.

I am a big fan of logic and I like to analyse everything with science.


Courage is the man who can stop after only one peanut

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dromepixie
dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 1463
Posted:I dont really see how you can place western ideals to other people's filosofies...

The tao deals with several terms that cannot be judged by our standards because then you are deliberately avoiding the true message that you have to find for yourself. Western ideals serve only to cloud and confuse the grand thinkers of the time and the slowly developed and open way in which they viewed their own society and its possibilities. I dont understand how people think that they can look at something in an ubiased fashion (as much as possible) when they are usually misinterpreting from the start...

Much lvoe and hugs, sorry for me rant

Drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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Jez
addict
Location: UK, London
Member Since: 11th Apr 2001
Total posts: 642
Posted:Good point except the philosopher in question spent just as much time in the far east as he did in the west and this is how he came to these conclusions. However I will lend you a book which you may find interesting if you wish.

'Happiness is liking peeing on yourself. Everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth.'

'If *I* had a hammer, there'd be no more folk singers.'

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