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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Coming across a few stereotypes here I would like to poll some opinions from you...



In Germany (and I guess in the UK aswell) we have quite a large number of fathers who are (legally) denied any access to their children.



Personally I'm speaking from (some) experience, as I'm denied any contact with my now almost four year old daughter by her mum since she was 3 months (even though not legally) because she thinks that my "lifestyle and appearance" are inappropriate (long hair, travelling, firespinning, not having a steady job and income)... she's a banker, can't blame her... shrug rolleyes



In my immediate surrounding I know of another case where a woman got pregnant from her one-night-stand and denies the father any contact to his son of 3yrs since birth ( for spiritual reasons as she opposes Reiki )...



The father has NO chance to push for contact, hence he has to pay allemonies... confused



What's your experience/ opinion about this?



The attached poll should end Dec 30st 2006... but carries the wrong date... sorry rolleyes


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Skulduggery
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales

Total posts: 8428
Posted:I can't vote on that due to the wording on the poll. I believe in some rare cases a parent (either mother or father) should be able to legally banned from seeing a child. In cases where there is child abuse, either physical or mental, the parent perpetrating that act must be stopped from hurting the child. Sometimes supervised access can be the way forward in such cases but, in some cases the only way of doing that is to remove that parent from the childs life.

I think a child has a right to know who both it's parents are and the right to see both parents. That right should be upheld at all costs, unless in so doing the child is put at risk.

People are always on about their rights, in custody cases, I think really it's the childrens rights that matter most. They, after all, did not ask to be born or have any choice in who their parents are.

So in answer to the above question "Should it be legally impossible for fathers to access their children?" I would have to answer, yes in some rare occasions it should be legally possible to stop a father having access to his child.

I didn't click the poll on the yes part because I was not sure what you meant by "also in the future fathers should have no so right". If by that you mean the ban on access should be forever with no chance of reconsideration, then I would have to say no. Things can change and there should always be course for reconsidering new circumstances.


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:valid and true... sorry the polling time is of course far too long and there is a typing error in the question as it should be: "no SUCH right" - maybe/ hopefully one might be able to edit it. rolleyes

In my question on the NO part I am asking:

Should a father also in the future have NO chance to legally push for custody (as the status is in Germany right now)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:im not voting either because i also have personal experience where i am a mother of 3 boys and none of them see there dad

my 2 eldest boys have the same dad, he left me age 16 and pregnant and went to live in devon, he came back a month before the birth, talked me into taking him back i thought it was right as i was young with a baby, we got a place together, 6 months after my eldest was born i got pregnant again, he talked me into 2 close together means they never be lonely and yes i was 17 and gullable, he then met someone else and i moved out 2 children and his other misses is pregnant, he choses to come in and out of my boys life as he pleased, no care how it messed there little minds up, he never has bought them anything or paid for anything ever, he keeps changing jobs to stop csa getting anywhere, he has a daughter with the girl he left me for, me and her are good friends and he is married with twin daughters and a son he adopted that was his wifes... he pays nothing for his sons or his daughter and never buys anything and walks past them in the street when they are out with my dad who they live with cause of personal circumstances but there is a difference i pay and see my boys and buy them anything they need...

my youngest boy is another story it was an abusive relationship and he tried to kill me and shay whilst i was pregnant so he has no right over seeing him, not if he could put us bth in danger...

but in circumstances where the father/ mother has done nothing wrong they should be a law which states they can go for some parental rights as long as they commit to it and have never been abusive in anyway special laws should also protect and thats my theory


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Firetramp


Firetramp

old hand
Location: Binstead, Isle of Wight

Total posts: 896
Posted:No voting either, see Skulduggery's answer as it is exactly what I was gonna say.

But FireTom, in your case (even if I don't know you), I think you should be able to see your kid as the reasons your ex is giving are ridiculous. You were good enough for her to sleep with at the time so...


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:fight it in court and you will get some kind of access

as long as you have not harmed her or been violent in anyway known to the police then you pretty much got a good chance


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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:I think the real issue here is, is it ethical to attribute almost all power to one parent on the basis of their sex?

This does not apply to situations where either parent has been abusive or has gone through the court system, but at the more basic level of access decisions and paternal status.

Certainly in NZ, it is a womans choice whether or not the childs father is named, even if she knows who the dad is (most cases I would hope) it can still be left blank. This effectively denies the father any legal status or rights unless spending thousands of dollars on lawyers and years of court time.

In the opposite direction, a women can also put down the name of someone else who is not the father, and there is no notification or attempt to confirm this with the proposed father before the birth certificate is processed and becomes a legal document.

This is a whole different can of worms, not only from a financial poijnt (child support payments) but also socially and ethically.

This has been abused many times in NZ and in some very public ways.

HOWEVER, shoddy as it sounds, what is it replaced with? What happens when a man really is the father , but denies it for whatever reason? Affordable DNA tests currently only prove that a person isnt the father, and cannot categorically prove that he is.


Back to the main point, about restricting access before the courts are involved. If the mother really wants to, this can be done in all sorts of ways, like moving away, not letting him in the door, not to mention a thousand other ways of punishing him socially and physically if he tries to see the child. The father can also employ this unethical style of methodology to gain access, or upset the mother for whatever reasons.

I personally think this type of situation cannot be covered by general laws or lists of dos and donts.

Legally, each individual case needs to be assessed independently of all the others, but then there is the cost of such assessment

So basically, I have no single simple answer


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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:@dani: this is exactly the problem: I have NO legal way to push for it.

The woman did not put me on the birth record in the first place (that's one) - I have no legal right to claim for testing (that's two) and even if those two would be in place: if she just states for whatever reason of my lifestyle, even making a false statement, that I am in any way endangering the development of the child - access will be denied by the state.

That's just the jurisdiction in my country... shrug

I have never put my hand against this woman, have never treated her disrespectful. In fact she was one very great love of mine. I divorced for her and she was the main reason that I gave up my lifelong plan to migrate to Australia.

Problems piled up as I decline to follow this "life-in-a-box"-concept most people do. But uncovering the whole story here is neither the place nor necessarily in the time and interest of the dear MoB wink (members of the board)

IMO: WHATEVER the guy might have done - even if he's violent and in these cases there has to be observation of social workers present at the time -it's a pristine necessity for a childs evolution to know their physical parent.

There are many keys in this to unravel their own karma and behaviour. They are growing up with a total strange concept of their parent and will for almost sure repeat their life in one or the other way as to render themselves for what has happened, or is going on.

It might not become apparent to most of us and to a vast number not being of any significance - but for as many it's very important and denied.

IMO: IF the parent is wanting to see the child and the child has no objection about it (outside of the other parents influence) - why on earth is it denied?


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: FireTom

IMO: WHATEVER the guy might have done - even if he's violent and in these cases there has to be observation of social workers present at the time -it's a pristine necessity for a childs evolution to know their physical parent.


Wrong. They can overpower the social workers and abduct the kids, or just assualt them before they have a chance to intervene or follow they kids back to the mother and hurt her. The violent ought to have no contact with anybody until they can control their behaviour. Other than curiousity there is no reason that a child needs to know both its parents to grow up emotionally healthy. All a child needs is a decent loving parent.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:not 100%! there are measures depending on level of aggression and violence where overpowerment of social workers and abduction of children can be prevented. Children can visit their fathers even if they are inmates and there is no chance children can be taken hostage...

We could also speak about wicked mothers who violent their children and are kept in custody for any other reasons...

But maybe we draw apart from the very ultra-extreme, shall we?

Would you be willing to agree with me upon the point that creating a (false) image in the head of a child about their parent can cause a misconception and lack of awareness against the very own characteristics.

Obviously the psychologists are still diverted what outweighs what: social influence or genetic predisposition?

In the issue of self reflection I reckon it's an important part to know about your parents (biological)...

no?



Personally I have seen my father (for other reasons) 5-8 times until age 19. I had a totally wrong concept about and it was affecting my whole approach to the rest of my family and him.

Personally I am certain that IF I would have the chance to render his personality by own


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Would you be willing to agree with me upon the point that creating a (false) image in the head of a child about their parent can cause a misconception and lack of awareness against the very own characteristics.

Obviously the psychologists are still diverted what outweighs what: social influence or genetic predisposition?

In the issue of self reflection I reckon it's an important part to know about your parents (biological)...

no?



I disagree. I think there are far more imprtant things in parenting than biology. All a biological father supplies is a sperm, and a biological mother an egg (and usually 9 months of fetal care). Far more important is the person who provides them with love and security for life. Perhaps your situation is unjustified but it's wrong to go making generalisations just on that. Some parents should never, ever see their children again due to the harm they cause to the children or their partner,


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:There are programmes for violent parents to see their kids under supervision, and the visit ends when the child (or parent!) gets upset.

Prison inmates is a different thing altogether, there's a difference between someone being in prison for a crime, but still being a good father/good for his kids, and someone being violent to their family, and therefore very unlikely to be a good father.


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(G.W. Dahlquist)

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earthdragon


earthdragon

Member
Location: nevada

Total posts: 62
Posted:the father of my kids isnt the best influince to them but thay wount keep me from leting him see them but he will not see them at all with out me there his father took him from his mom and moved sevrel time to keep him away from his mom and im now afrade he my try that same crap thow he has told me he would never do that to me but the brain workes in weird ways

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

addict
Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:I have never and never intend on brain washing my son with what his dad is like...

Yes he can not see his dad, and a court ruled that he isnt to come within 50 ft of me and my son let alone the fact i have been moved many miles away from him. but i have ept photos and items that belonged to him for my son when he is older and strong enough to make his own mind up and if he likes i wont deny him the knowing of who his father is and where he can try contact him.

but as a mother i am protecting my child from what could be potentially harmful for him and myself whilst he is unable to make his own mind up.


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inactive
SILVER Member since May 2005

inactive

old hand


Total posts: 722
Posted:Post deleted by Sunbird

To you who has been accessing my online accounts, changing my login details, locations and posting censored about me, realise, you are not worth revenge, you are not worth my attention, you are nothing, and that is all you ever will be.

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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:Its a touchy subject. I know that there are people that I have dated that I realized later that they were not the best people in the world, like the one who stalked me and threatened my life and his when I told him I never, ever wanted to see him again, but I also see what it does to the fathers who messed up and now want to step up and help take care of their child.
Boyfriend now was breaking up with his ex when we met. She immediately assumed the whole other woman thing (not the case). As this all has continued, she has gotten an injunction against him saying he cant just show up on her or swear at her. The random appearances didnt really happen, but she was so scared of him. The swearing at her is much more difficult. I asked him if I could still swear at her, but he said that I shouldnt make things more difficult for him. One night, he swore at her. Now we have to drive an hour to make a 30 min appearance. Or sit in court all day for them to tell us to come back a different day. I am looking forward to the mediation next week so that this all can get resolved, or at least make some progress.
We cant go see her, because awhile ago he lost his license and now we are working to get it back. Any messing up legally is over a decade old and his troubles are a few years behind him. But now his mother wont pick up his daughter, nor does she want us hanging out at her house. The step dad tries to support boyfriends mother (his wife). Ex wont let me drive because she doesnt know me but makes no effort to find out who I am or my driving record or my lack of criminal record (Well, she apparently does check out my myspace and the blog I have there-who knows she may even be secretly hovering around here). There is no one else to drive but she cant be inconvenienced by his problem. He hasnt seen his child in a few months, before that he saw her at least once a week. He pays child support. He never hit the ex or the child. He has cleaned up his act more than she has her own, or says all the drunk calls I used to get at bar close. He is depressed. His work is suffering. Our relationship is strained because of the financial and emotional burden it puts on us.
And jeff, I believe you are wrong about the needing one parent and possibly not a biological one (I know big surprise, I disagree with you). A friends father is a drifter and a con. He still wants to know this man despite having a great stepdad. He wants to be aware of this mans flaws. It may be fear that it is genetic and were passed on. He is a drifter like his father. I believe that there is a time and place for those parents that might harm their child, but really if I had had a child by the crazy stalker guy (who allegedly raped and beat a woman a few days later), it would be ok under the right conditions and if I felt that the child was emotionally strong enough. After, there would be conversations about how did that make you feel. Did any of it scare you? I believe it to be an inherent need to know where we came from and what we have accomplished. I have seen dealers and addicts turn to butter when it comes to talking about their kids. One of them said something like that child was the one thing he did right in his life and his was in college so that he could go straight.
Summary: There is a time and a place but all parents at some time should be able to see their child. It will benefit both if done at the right time. The courts are helpful but dont know everything. If a parent is a little different or a lot, it will provide an alternate view of life. This does not mean the parent is going to brainwash the child into their way of thinking. It may be the father is seen as Uncle Joe to lessen the impact of the coming and going; similar tactics have been used in open adoptions with the biological parents.
One of the worse things that I have seen on a regular basis is the poisoning of a childs mind against a parent. Some children think that if a parent is a bad person or schmuck that they are in some way too.


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Sorry for those of you who cant see your children. But I'd like to say it's great to know you are full of love for your children and hoping to see them. It's so refreshing, especially when it seems the world is full of censored!
hug ubblove to you all xxx


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:I think the bias in our (GB) current system favouring mothers rights over fathers is disgusting. It's disgraceful that the mother is allowed the ability to eliminate the father from the birth certificate. No matter how bad they may have treated the mother in the past, the right to be a part of their own childs life should be 50/50 all the way.

In Tom's case, his ex spent enough time with him to produce a child, that's a 50/50 responsibility for conception and the same ratio should continue throughout the kids life until it's either 1) The father is judged to be a danger to the childs physical/mental health 2) the chils is old enough to decide for itself or 3) the father proves his presence is a danger to the childs physical/mental health after the fact. And the same should count for the Mothers too, yet it rarely does.

If I lost little Edan because of a split and his Mom denied me access my rage would probably lead me to abduction and various other crimes I shouldn't write about.

Carrying a child for 9 months and giving birth shouldn't afford any additional rights or bias the balance of rights in their favour. Unfortunately the world seems to think it does. THESE GUYS tried and failed to change the current legal and social views on the matter, it was such a shame that they disbanded themselves becuase of unsubstantiated tabloid newspaper rubbish.

I could carry on writing, but I don't want to get any angrier than I feel right now. Tom, living without your child in your life must take amazing restraint hug


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Hokay...this one is really close to my heart.

When I was little I was taken from my mother for abuse and neglect and put with other children into foster care. We all had to go for visitations with our respective parents. Many of the parents chose to go to some level of parenting school and learn how to do better. Mine did not and for 4 years she kept screwing up with it. There I things I remember clearly from that time.
4 years they allowed her to essentially screw with me because they had hope that she would 1) grow up the point where her maternal instincts would kick in (she was young) and 2) take responsibility. The only reason they allowed her to continue the charade that long was because she was my "mother". She didn't and I was adopted out. A few weeks later she tried to kidnap me.
I was never told anything about her until I was 21. Child minds create scenerios around things that glamorize them completely. When I was little and upset at my (adoptive) parents I had this fantasy in my head about my natural parents sweeping me away,etc. Never happened. When I was 21 I met her. The biggest mistake as she is really deluded. It was horrible but good for me.
In this case should the mother have had the rights she did as long as she did, based on her sex? Not at all.

Moving ahead. Abusive to me boyfriend and I got preg with my son. We didn't even go to court. I left. He has no rights. He pays for nothing. We haven't seen or heard from him in 11 years. We're okay with that. However, here they made me put his name on the birth certificate when I didn't want to. So now I have to fight to have it taken off. Do you know how much that sucks?
Do you know how horrible it is to think that that censored of a man could stroll back in because his name is on a piece of paper? My son has never even had his last name...there is no reason for it!

Point of this...should there be automatic parent rights because a person had a part to play in making the baby?
No. And I have LOTS more examples to support this.

However, a person I know also denies the father of her baby from any contact at all, without true basis. It is sad. He *wants* to be a daddy. He *wants* to care for the child and do his job.
I think the fact that there are men out there who are so willing to do so is fantastic and I think that as long as there is absolutely no violent, disruptive history then he should be allowed to be.

I know a father who has custody of both of his girls and has banned the mother from seeing them (the woman has been institutionalized for being a harm to herself, and possibly others).
It works both ways but it depends on the country you are in.

It wasn't always that way here in the US but fortunately it is changing to where the welfare of the children is a factor in the decision. Not as much as it should be imo but more than it was.

It's something that needs to be challenged and fought for, like every other right.

Donating sperm or and egg to make a baby doesn't make a person a parent. Anyone can do that. How you fight for your children, love them and care for them...in whatever capacity you can, is what makes a true parent imo.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Would you be willing to agree with me upon the point that creating a (false) image in the head of a child about their parent can cause a misconception and lack of awareness against the very own characteristics.

Obviously the psychologists are still diverted what outweighs what: social influence or genetic predisposition?

In the issue of self reflection I reckon it's an important part to know about your parents (biological)...

no?




Absolutely not.

I didn't know my biological mother or father until I was 21. When I met her (he's in prison, so I only got roundabout stuff of him) this is what I understand about myself.
I have the physical height and body shape of him. I have her eyes. He is wickedly intelligent, but didn't know what to do with it. She could have been creative. They both have HORRIBLE addictive personalities..meaning they are easily addicted to things, mostly drugs and alcohol for them.

I have those traits, but I always *knew* that. I didn't need to meet them to understand that. Nor did I need to know about their addictions to keep from getting swept up the same way. However, I do feel that if I had have been around them drinking and whatnot, I would have been more inclined to have done it, and end up like them.
But I wasn't.
Why?
Because my environment shaped me into who I am much more than genetics.

I have the personality of my (adoptive) mum and dad completely.
I have his sense of humor. Her nurturing tendancies.
I have her "talk with the hands", sing with the radio, laid back nature with his cheerful until you tick me off then look out disposition. I have his protective streak and her ability to cook.
There are times when I do, say, behave a certain way that my friends will look at me and tell my parents about how much like them I am. There is no doubt to anyone that I am their child, even though I am not by nature.

My son is alot like PWB, whom I have been with 9 of Noah's 11 years. They argue the same way. They have the same habits. They have a similar sense of humor. Hell, if you look at their feet they are the same (that is really weird!). Looking at Noah he looks *alot* like me. There is very little of his spermdonor (cause that is what I call him, it's all he was good for) in him, and I am okay with that. Noah even has the traits of some of the friends of mine he was around *alot*. Like Prometheus. Noah has a sense of guarded adventure alot like Prometheus'...he headbangs like Prom too. ubblol

If Noah looks at the people who have been prevelent in his life, who are very important to him, he will see his characteristics and tendancies very clearly, without having to meet his genetic father at all.

And when Noah was younger he asked about his spermdonor alot. I told him the truth. It was a man who loved alcohol and drugs more than he loved us and that he was sick because of it.
I won't lie and build up fairy tales but I also will not say what a horrible man he was either. That explaination sated Noah too.

No, I do not feel that knowing your biologicals helps you to know yourself better at all. In fact, I can see in many cases how it could be quite detrimental to the child.

BTW...I didn't vote either. I am strongly for the viewpoint that these things are very individualized on a case by case basis and can not have blanket statements laid over them.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Pele - I can agree with a lot that you have posted here and also understand that you didn't vote. As a matter of fact, if I could I would edit and delete the vote anyway...

You are completely right that to put one blanket over the entire story is wrong and I am happy BTW that many do support the notion that a father should not get rejected if he

a) wants to care for the child
b) has a non-violent history

Of course father/ parenthood comes with actually DOING the job - other than that, one is just a sperm/ egg-donor.

Being a parent is in RAISING the child, not in providing physical evidence only. Whether or not it is important for the child to know BOTH of their physical parents - now this is something tricky. IMO yes it is.

You're completely right that a child makes up (glamourised) stories about their parents... I "suffered" the same problem with my father (who I haven't seen 5 times until I was age 19)... I also comply with your statement that the social environment has a HUGE impact on the personality of the child - one that can even outweigh genes.

Now rendering the problem with both: parents that cannot make contact to their children and (todays) adults that didn't have much contact with their physical parents, I too come to the conclusion that this is too complex to simply brush it over one edge only.

There are adults who never met their parents (even the "bad" ones) and will never have the chance as they passed away already. They feel as if they lack something, even if they know that their parent was crazy/ a sociopath/ violent/ abusive.

IMHO even in worst cases there is still a benefit to meet at least one time in life CONSCIOUSLY (meaning with the ability to actually "see" the parent/ person and who s/he is, maybe >age 14).

One reason for this is that (even if the parent is as bad as bush) is to show that after all deeds a human committed, s/he may still be able to produce/ create ONE good thing in this world... the child... This I call a benefit for both - child and parent.

There are other reasons, which will take too far and make this post tooo long anyways - it has to do with "identification" (un/conscious) of the child with the parent. Meaning that the child *might* identify with and therefore repeat the parents life. There are numerous theories about this right now, one of them proclaimed by: Hellinger

I include the link not because I advocate sessions after his method, consider his findings empirical or to suit everybody - I just take it as another (possible) piece of the puzzle...

Now as for the denied parenthood: my little one is now almost 4 and I have seen her maybe 5 times until age 6 month... How am I supposed to build up any "parental" emotions towards my child if I am denied any contact? For almost certain neither the kid, nor me will have a strong bond, it's against the odds. So now am I supposed to just carry on? Forget about it? "Make" another, if I wanna be a daddy?

I do take into account that there are very difficult/ troubled situations in wich contact between child and parent might even be destructive... but I also know about the psychological drama that a father (and a child) is going through and how much time it can take to work things out.

All that I would love to see is society to take a closer look at the problem, that parents rights are sometimes parents duties...

It's a screwed up situation - in the meantime I somehow managed to accept the "donor"-status, but frankly speaking am not too happy about it, if you know what I mean... ?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Location: Cannock, staffordshire

Total posts: 667
Posted:Written by: Dunc

INo matter how bad they may have treated the mother in the past, the right to be a part of their own childs life should be 50/50 all the way.





i have to disagree with this quoted part as no matter what they have done to the mother? does that include the fact they beat and sexually abuse the mother and then try to kill the unborn child and possibly mother and then even though its in the past be able to be a father... that is wrong

yes fathers who want part of there childs life and they have have never done anythig wrong to harm there ex partner or child should have rights but otherwise they have no right to walk into the childs life years later because they decide they want to be a father that should be from birth for life or to have part in a childs life if they have physically harmed the mother or child or are particularly dangerous


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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Well Dani - here I have some opposition:

If the father has a violent history (in the relationship already) - why on earth is the woman getting together/ staying with him as long as to get pregnant with "his" child?

This topic I always have been confused about and really would like to see a thread about "abusive relationships - why on earth?"

However, if she is/ has been aware of his character all along, I can't find any justification for then coming up saying: "Aw, you're a violent man and NOW you get what you deserve!".. to me this is kind-a "off"...

Of course if they are an immediate threat they should NOT be able to see the child without PROPER supervision!

I personally regard a family as a relationship made from fate, creating more suffering will not pacify the violent father/ or mother (by the way)... You know I consider it self-centered to (suddenly) put ones very own morals and views upon the other parent... this should have been done BEFORE jumping the sheets together!

But maybe I am missing the point in this one/ once again (?)... wink


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:yes you are missing the point because unless you have actually been in an abusive situation you are going to think why would they be there

i once said the same till i found the situation psycologically impossible to get out of, you can actually be trapped mentally and scared to leave because of what they might do

im sure there is a topic somewhere on this im sure i have replied to one but as i never get the results i want from a search i am not attempting one.

what the person can mentally do to yuour mind and how you actually feel especially mixing fear with love is a hard situation to get out of


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faith enfire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2006

faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin

Total posts: 3556
Posted:been in that situation
While I didnt have a child with him, he threatened to kill me and him and then me.
Only under proper supervision would he be able to see a child that I had with him. I would consider is age as well. How and when he saw the child would change with time. This is not a static situation, but a dynamic one


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:it was social services and a judge who ruled that until my son was old enough to make his own decisions usually meaning 16 here my ex was not to come anywhere near us

fact i have been moved 150 miles from friends and family because thats how bad my life was in danger goes to show how dangerous he can be

situations are all different


oh and tom what u said about having a child with him, wasnt my choice at the time and thats as far as i say on an open board


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FireTom


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Posted:Dani, as much as I have understanding for this kind of situation I consider it extreme. Certainly a relationship can turn into a nightmare and this was neither obvious, nor to be forseen from the start...

We partly had this discussion and it is surely controversial. Nobody really can understand it, who has not been in such situation/ relationship.

I certainly consider myself lucky, not having been in such.

But can we (in the face of such extreme cases) brush all fathers (or mothers) over the same edge? Of course you have your point and it's cetainly legal.

As much as I am curious about the background and what is going on in the mind of someone who finds her/himself in a violent relationship with nowhere to turn to and no help or end in sight - this would be another thread and is offtopicish here.

I believe that having a "family"/ children is a fateful relationship, one that remains even after the physical contact vanishes. It remains for life, no moatter whether ppl are conscious about it or not.

Un/fortunately I have not made up my mind on this one - it's somehow floating...

shrug


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Dunc
It's disgraceful that the mother is allowed the ability to eliminate the father from the birth certificate.



This isn't true for all cases, Dunc. For example, while a couple are married, any child the woman gives birth to is presumed to also be her husbands child until proved otherwise and he has the right to enter his name on the childs birth certificate whether he's the father or not eek

Written by:
No matter how bad they may have treated the mother in the past, the right to be a part of their own childs life should be 50/50 all the way.



It interests me that some feel that if a parent treats someone else badly, either in the past or in the present, it's a good indication of how they may treat their child - yet for some obscure reason, when it is the mother who is being treated badly, the rule no longer applies confused

One of the most important pieces of advice which is often imparted onto couples who separate is not to let the children see them treat each other badly - preferably not to treat each other badly at all! It's a good example to set throughout parenting.

If parents can't realise that the welfare of their child should take priority over the relationship (or, rather, lack of) between themselves, they must be prepared to face the consequences of that, because while it may not conclude in withdrawal of access, it will almost certainly result in distressing and confusing their child.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Location: Cannock, staffordshire

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Posted:tom why dont you start a topic on it then?

if you are so curious or have any questions on such aspects feel free to pm me im more than happy to answer questions, just dont want to force my opinion on what i have seen on another topic.

i have lived in a womans refuge for women and children fleeing domestic violence i also now speek out at meetings and other refuges to help women through these situations i have seen every type of violence known through how the victims come out and can probably help more of an understanding on the situation


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: Spanner

One of the most important pieces of advice which is often imparted onto couples who separate is not to let the children see them treat each other badly - preferably not to treat each other badly at all! It's a good example to set throughout parenting.




Actually I've just read about a study that says this is not true... it says that often children are confused if the parents seem to get along well, but still are separated, and that the worst thing is not parents arguing (because most kids understand that), but having different sets of rules for both parents (as in, when to go to bed, how to behave etc), and not really knowing what is the right thing to do.

Which doesn't mean it's a good thing to argue of course!! rolleyes Just thought I'd mention that study cause I found it quite interesting. It showed that children from "nice" split-ups were not that much less traumatised and confused than those from "bad" ones as is usually thought. Of course, this didn't have a group of "really bad" ones with violence etc, since noone would watch kids in that situation just to study them without intervening...


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:I'm glad you mentioned it Birgit, as I also found it interesting. Although I think there are countless other factors which affect how a child reacts to separation, I'm open minded about both angles smile



I wasn't speaking exclusively of arguing, but about abuse. They are two issues which I think a line can be drawn between - a very thin one at times! frown - but regarding arguing, in any stage of a family relationship, I think a balance has to be met for the sake of all parties remaining honest to each other while also remaining true to themselves smile


"I thought you are man, but
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yay,

:R"

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