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Forums > Social Discussion > Morality of eradicating harmful species.

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I've been studying parasites for the last three months now and I was wondering what peoples opinions were on the eradication of an entire species if it causes human or even animal hardship. There are loads of different factors in considering the morality. Is it acceptable to eradicate plasmodium, the parasite that causes malaria? It's only a single cell and doesn't even count as an animal so most people wouln't care. But would it be alright to wipe out it's vector, the mosquito (actually since sexual reproduction of the plasmodium occurs in the mosquito, humans are the vector to mosquitos in a strictly technical sense wink) What about wiping out a mammal species if it carried a disease or just a local population, like the growing momentum for a Badger cull in parts of Britain.

Is the eradication of a species wrong in general? How does it compare to the death of an individual? If a species could be eradicated without harming any of its members (by sterilisation or whatever) would it still be wrong? It's a lot of questions but since I may well be involved in this line of work in the future (although probably not the badger killing eek) I really want to know how it's percieved.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Didn't you say the other day that 2/3 of species are parasitic in some way? I doubt eradicating them all would be a good idea...

Now, I can't see any good to come from plasmodium, since it harms humans it doesn't keep down the mosquito population either... but surely some parasites would seriously upset the natural balance if eradicated?

I am all for parasites since they speed up evolution. With all the species we're killing we need new animal superpowers wink


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NOn


activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac

Total posts: 1643
Posted:how do you distinguish between what is and what isn't a parasite?... does it have to have the power to wipe out another species or something?

and.. if we go around wiping out "parasites" doesn't that also make humans some kind of parasite too, the parasite of the parasites, so that to be ethically balanced in such a matter we'd have to wipe out the human race too....

i don't believe you can wipe out the whole of anything for better or worse, everything would upset the balance somehow, even if it's in such a minute way that we couldn't possibly know.... what if the plasmodium was the host or sourcfe of food for some other even tinier bacteria that we haven't discovered yet but that it in turn is a main source of food for some good bacteria that lives somewhere else... or i don't know, whatever, what i'm trying to express is that to me everything is interconnected, and i don't think we can play god like that and decide whether or not it's viable to wipe out a species, just because it's inconvienient to be struck down with malaria... i think we already have enough measures as humans to prevent ourselves getting diseases, trying to live longer only creates a greater overpopulation problem and puts larger strain on the world's resources, if any parasite should be wiped out, it should probably be the human race...... (at least we wouldn't have to worry about malaria.)

i know that sounds like a terribly bitter and hopeless viewpoint, but i really believe that there isn't another species more harmful to life than ourselves, and that it may be hypocritical to go about wiping out others....

uh... and i'm sorry if that's gone way too deep and off topic for what you actually wanted to know.... i've never studied "parasites", so this rant is based mainly on my own understanding of the word...


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.:star:.
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

.:star:.

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1785
Posted:Written by: NOn


how do you distinguish between what is and what isn't a parasite?... does it have to have the power to wipe out another species or something?





Definition of parasite: A parasite is an organism that lives in or on the living tissue of a host organism at the expense of that host.



Everything has its place in this world, what right do we have to go round changing that. We've done it to enough species already. Irradicating a species may upset the natural balance in a totally unexpected way.


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Psycho_lemming
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

Psycho_lemming

Running hippy spinning lemming
Location: Scotland

Total posts: 15
Posted:eradicating entire species... hmmm...

i got very used to the idea of eradication at a benefical tool for conservation when i was in NZ... eradicating rats, cats, ferrets... it all became very normal and stuff...

but that isnt eradicating an ENTIRE species, its just removing a species that was never ment to be there - humans in our wisdom introduced them, and now they serverely threaten native species... but even that level of eradication can be contraversial

talking about eradicating entire species all together is another debate me thinks...

a couple of points...

who decides? different species mean different things to different people surely... i'm sure some australians wouldnt mind seeing the end to european rabbits, but the spanish wouldnt exactly agree... theres alot of stuff already on this issue with genetic engineered myxi etc

i know you were origninally talking about parasites... small, single celled even... but where do you draw the line?

and do we have the right to make those kind of decisions in the first place...
<mutters on about intrinsic values and stuff>

humans often do things we 'think' are best and it has ended up going so so wrong so many times.... even when we were aiming for conservation...
we have proved over and over again that we just dont understand the complex interactions that occur in our environment... we change things and cant predict how everything is going to react... and generally we mess things up

if we eradicate a few parasites... maybe that will release a level of control on another species,

or maybe we will look back in years and say damn that parasite could have provided the cure we need for this disease or the genes for this trait... but it will be too late

personally any complete eradication soley for human gain sounds bad, i know it could potentially save lives... but...
its also open to so much abuse, so many arguements and getting so out of control...
i'm sure there'd be loads of political, power driven, economic influences in something like this and loads of shifting the blame for stuff if anything went wrong...

we're losing so many species already, including many that people generally dont care about...
insects, crop varieties... loads

damn it we should be conserving nature, not figuring out new ways to interfer and destroy it...

<runs away>


Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering...

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Psycho_lemming
SILVER Member since Jul 2004

Psycho_lemming

Running hippy spinning lemming
Location: Scotland

Total posts: 15
Posted:eek.. sorry... that turned into a bit of a rant,
i should have kept it short..

Written by: .:star:.

Everything has its place in this world, what right do we have to go round changing that. We've done it to enough species already. Irradicating a species my upset the natural balance in a totally unexpected way.



exactly... thats what i ment to try and say
biggrin

hug


Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering...

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Every time we've tried to eradicate a species, with very few exceptions (a few diseases that only infect humans, for example) we've upset the natural balance in ways we never expected. Overgrowth of another pest, for example, or elimination of a species that depended on said species.

It's tough because the anopheles mosquito is a nasty little beast that carries malaria around, but then again, what's the consequence of eliminating it?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Presumably some other animal that eats it loses it's food supply, then the thing that eats *that* get starved and pretty soon you've killed all the mongooses... rolleyes

Wholesale eradication is a bad idea.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:On the other hand, smallpox was a scourge. Nothing ate it or gained from it. It just killed.

And so I'm glad we got rid of it.

Although if a virus isn't alive (and it isn't, for some very good reasons, like the fact that it comes almost completely apart when it enters a cell) can it really be a "species"?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Maybe some exists on a level we're just unable to perceive...

I'm with Sethis: wholesale eradication (even of mosquitoes) is unsmart...

Let's just try to make less instead of more damage and grow stronger to the challenges instead of weaker by eradicating the obstacles...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:How about just the Plasmodium then? In Africa it kills millions and you have very little support amongst the populace for it's right to exist. In China malaria used to be a huge scourge but a concerted effort of mosquito control elimated it with no ill effects on the other wildlife. I'll just add that there is NO evidence or even suggestion that malaria is in any way helpful. Personally if I could eliminate human malaria today I would do so without any hesitation. In the west we have already eliminated almost all the parasites which infected us and these were no objections. I think if we were faced with the reality of malaria every day opinions would be considerably different.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Maybe some exists on a level we're just unable to perceive...




One might say that about a rubber tire.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

Written by: FireTom

Maybe some exists on a level we're just unable to perceive...



One might say that about a rubber tire.


Every time you point out the holes in a hippy's logic, God kills a kitten. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:Dear Heaven, not the irradication of kittens *runs off and hoards loads of cats to save htem from 'God"*

Seriously though, we're already irradicating species and becoming weaker for it. Products like domestos and other similar cleaners claim to irradicate 99.9% of all household germs and because of the overly clean environment that we live in more people have alergies and athsma (sp?). The human body needs things to fight off otherwise it attacks things that it shouldn't so irradicating virii and bacteria is a catastrophic mistake. As for mosquitoes, if we control the population then surely thats much better than attempting to completely destroy them? Although we did try irradicating them before using pesticides like DDT (if I remember correctly) and it failed because of simple evolution so perhaps irradocation is impossible...

Anyhoo.. Imho irradication is a bad idea. It would be creating a complete double standard... we protect lions and other similar wildlife but destroy others. Who would decide which species die? Who has the right to do that?


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Well the WHO for one. What seems like double standards is that here in the west we have already wiped out most of the diseases which tormented us. We no longer have malaria or douzens of other diseases here so perhaps its difficult to grasp quite how terrible it is in Africa where 1.3 million people die every year from malaria. I'm willing to bet that none of the people on the forum would be willing to infect themselves of their families with malaria so why should African be any different?

Actual mosquito control programs were very successful in some parts of the world. There used to be malaria in Africa and China (some modern antimalarial drugs are adapted from chinese medicine) but no longer. It's in Africa that they failed mostly due to abundance of wetland.

Written by: FireTom
Let's just try to make less instead of more damage and grow stronger to the challenges instead of weaker by eradicating the obstacles...


I feel a bit of a tool now for supporting STOP-AIDS. rolleyes

For future reference, malaria is species specific so human strains don't infect animals, has no benifitial effects and even increases the rates of sickle cell aneamia in humans thus hurting us genetically. frown Basicly it sucks majorly.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Glåss
PLATINUM Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:Have you read "Xenocide"? of the Enders game series.
Its about this subject.

Surely the most distructive species is the one reading this thread.


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:So does anybody actually think all humans should be eradicated to save the rest of the planet?

(I don't. I admit to being selfish, but I don't mind... I like living way too much.)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Birgit

So does anybody actually think all humans should be eradicated to save the rest of the planet?

(I don't. I admit to being selfish, but I don't mind... I like living way too much.)


http://www.vhemt.org/


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:smartypants smile

We have too a grown number of allergies in the west at the same time... everytime we try to push one down anothermore comes up. eek

You eradicate malaria, nature (or the us government/military call it as you like) comes up with AIDS and Birdflu.

We need to be rescued by our governments from nature far to often... maybe we have overstayed our welcome?

One strongly believes that even un/counter productive and insultive statements have their right of existence and should not be eradicated. One can learn so much from them and grow stronger, instead of degrading. hug


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)
Is the eradication of a species wrong in general? ... How does it compare to the death of an individual? ... If a species could be eradicated without harming any of its members (by sterilisation or whatever) would it still be wrong? ... I really want to know how it's percieved.



Well well...

Is stupidity, selfishness and greed considered a species?
Unfortunately I assume it's a condition/ing and that's the only one that I could support getting eradicated... hence it grows so much understanding, compassin and love - so should we keep it alife in a jar and pull it out every time people forget that it existed?


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: FireTom

You eradicate malaria, nature (or the us government/military call it as you like) comes up with AIDS and Birdflu.



Okay... umm. I'm getting the feeling you havent any clue what you are talking about and are simply talking out of your ass (or whatever the US government/military call it). I could post a point by point lecture on the evolution of parasites and pathogens, the origins or the Human Immunodefficiency Virus and Avian Influenza and a diatribe about paranoid conspiracy theories but that would be long and boring to everyone but me. This Disneyfied view of nature is both incorrect and dangerously so. Wikipedia is bound to have many excellent pages on all the topics.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)

http://www.vhemt.org/




rolleyes


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Birgit

Written by: jeff(fake)

http://www.vhemt.org/




rolleyes


Personally I think they have a perfectly valid and moral view point. I disagree but they make a very intellegent agruement.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:So, by stopping the people who care about the environment from breeding and teaching others and their kids, they'll protect the environment from the 99.99% that choose not to stop breeding?
And given the speed of pollution, eradication of species, population growth etc, even a rate of 10 % vhemt-ers wouldn't help.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)
I could post a point by point lecture on (...) the origins or the Human Immunodefficiency Virus (...)



Yes I guess your a** is sar farter than mine...

Maybe you start with proving that the HIV-Virus actually exists - then we're talking... rolleyes


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Are you one of those people who believe the hole in the ozone layer is an invention by the cosmetic industry to promote their new sprays without fluorochlorohydrocarbons? eek

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:no but i think it's promoted in favour of the suntan-producing industry...

hence the plain existence of the HI-virus has so far not been proven by virologists...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: FireTom

Maybe you start with proving that the HIV-Virus actually exists - then we're talking... rolleyes


The first time the virus was isolated

The virus is traced back to chimps

Both are peer reviewed.

Then there is the repeated isolation of the HIV virus from AIDS patients, the gentotyping of the virus, the images of the virus
Non-Https Image Link

like this one.

I believe that this is what one might call OWNED, FireTom.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:no you haven't



you start bothering me



I thought we'd be on a more humanitarian level of discussion here on HoP and don't call each others names - i'm sorry to have been lowering my standards to your level... frown



you don't have to like me jeff. But maybe you act out your frustration on a round of playing poi, other than on me. hug

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1135088933)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: FireTom


no you haven't



you start bothering me





A non-peer reviewed, unsubstatiated collection of rumours EDIT (and complete and total [censored]. I know more about epidemiology than these clowns. I've seen less basic errors in preschool report!)which have been thourally proven wrong by the scientific communty? You'll have to do better than that lad. You've been OWNED.

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1135089763)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:http://www.healtoronto.com/hiviso.html
br>


http://www.sumeria.net/aids/oz/hiv_isolation2.html
br>


http://www.7mac.com/blackstar/health_watch/HIV_never_isolated.htm
br>


a sample of the last article:



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />

The trial was based on actions of the defendant which were caused by the misleading statement made by the RKI (Dr. Marcus) on the 9th March 1995, that there were photographs of the isolated HI-virus inside the publications of Montagnier (1983) and Gallo (1984). The judge proved the untruthfulness of this statement using Dr. Marcus' statement itself. The court imposed a suspended sentence of 8 months of jail because of attempted coercion of the authorities to adhere and act according to law and order.



The document of the German Bundestag DS 12/8591 holds proof that the Bundestag had already known in 1994 that neither Montagnier (1983) nor Gallo (1984) had isolated any virus in connection with AIDS. Based on this the Bundestag safeguarded the persistent lie of the AIDS information campaign (RKI) from 9th March 1995 about the successful isolation of a virus in connection with AIDS. As a consequence of non-tolerating this lie and because of non-tolerating the deadly consequences of this lie, the trial took place on 15th January 2001.



It is impossible -- as far as laboratory conditions are concerned to develop a valid Virus-antibody-test, if the virus has not been isolated before. Every layman understands that an individual proof for an infection with a virus is impossible, if the existence of the virus has never been generally proven. This knowledge of the German health authorities, that the tests are not validated, can be proven via the authorities' documents themselves. The error concerning the test's validity is spread and supported by the authorities -- against better knowledge.





but if this is only about WINNING - hey! OWN ME!



I believe it to be of much more use to view discussions on childcare than our ego-battle... peace bro'


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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