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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:First and formost, I am not starting this topic to start a fight, or for anyone to blow up on anyone.

I took one of Dom's suggestions (not really a spoken suggestion) and since I have access to BBC for the first time, I have been watching alot of it during my off time. It has brought a few things to my mind that CNN had yet to. One thing is it definatly shows more of a story than CNN, though quality is something to be desired, anyhow thats not the point.

I have also started looking at the pending war on Iraq with some different thoughts.

(I think I will scare the piss out of Dom hehe)

I still dont think that President Bush really cares about the oil. I still think this is a none factor to him. Honestly I think that he wants to finish what his father started.

Yes it is undeniable that Saddam is an evil man and needs to be removed from power.

Is a US lead coalition (SP) really needed? I dont think so. I think that it is a matter for the UN to decide.

The things that Bush says makes me honestly think that he is really really serching for a way to attack Iraq.

Something was said earlyer by someone about just assasinating Saddam. The only problem with assasinating Saddam is that it is against the Geniva Convention. However I agree that assasinating Saddam is a damn good idea.

Sadam has made his own people suffer pretty bad. He lives a life of luxury while the men who are in his military starve. His civialian populace are forced to give up the majority of what little crops they grow, to him. While he sits there and blames the US.

If 12 years ago he hadnt attacked Kuait would we even know about his ability to make chemical weapons? Would the world populace know of his cruelty?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Fire_Emanator
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 14th Aug 2002
Total posts: 96
Posted:NO WAR, armed conflict is not a way to solve anything, so whether there is any justification for Georgie to want Saddam out of power is not really the point, the point is that Georgie wants to use force to do it, which is wrong. Viloence solves nothing, war is not the answer to the world's problems, getting George Bush out of power is!

Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:I like the BBC world news. I have found it to be much more objective and much more informative than American news. You can see reports of all the countries rioting against the US that never happen if you're watching American news.

I remember being in school learning about WWII and how my teachers went so far out of thier way to trash on the Nazis for thier use of propaganda to whip thier citizens up into a frenzy of bling nationalim, but the US media is a constant baragge of propaganda from all sides. TV shows like Oprah and Dr. Phil tell us how we should feel so that we don't have to sctually think about it. The nightly news tells us what we should fear, and the colorful sitcoms give us a convieniant escape. Programs to boost our faith in our government and the latenight talk shows to slowly chip that away......

It is really hard anymore to make an informed dicision as to weather or not we should go to war with Iraq, or China, or Afghanistan, Uzbecistan, or whogivesafuckistan. It is almost impossible to make an informed choice as to who to vote in on your childs school board let alone making a moral decion as to whether it is justifiable to send those children to their death. It may be impossible to really change anything untill it is already too late. Everyone likes to argue about it, but I tend to wonder if anyone actually cares that much (or at least more than they care about Rachel getting back together with Ross, or who the weakest link is).

It also occurs to me that thirty or so years ago the US was facing a similar situation in south east asia. People were pouring enmasse into the streets screaming thier opiniions, burning to be heard. But it seems that my generation of american has been brainwashed into believeing that every thing is ok and that everything always will be. It's sad really.

Personally I think that this war is a bad idea, not only morally, but this could devestate our already fragile economy. Since we are a service based economy, an economy based almost completely on consumption with very little out going trade war is devestating. This will hurt our country much more than it will help it.

[ 21. November 2002, 19:53: Message edited by: SickpuPpy ]


Jesus helps me trick people.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Violence is both good and bad, bare with me here.

The violece of war has brought us many many advances that may or may not have been deiscoverd otherwise. Vacines (sp), space travel, satalite communication. Personally without the cold war I think we would still be 50 years from having pcs or even the internet.

True that millions have died since war began, and that is tragic.

I doubt Bush will be in power after 2004 so no worries Fire, he will be gone soon enough. If not, he will definatly be gone in 2008.

Sickpuppy, WWII brought the US econimy up from a serius slump. I think that war is good for the US econimy. We also export more than you think. I mean farmers are paid not to plant seeds. Our biggest export is food.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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flash fire
flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 25th Jan 2001
Total posts: 2758
Posted:*chooses to bite her tongue, cos it's just not worth it*

HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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Pink...?
Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There
Member Since: 6th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6140
Posted:I dont think war helps anything

A close mate of mine is in the Army, and he has only just come back from Kosovo, now he's on leave, but could be called up at anytime to fight in Iraq, he had to write a will, and do loads things like that before going on leave. I'm so worried about him, i mean he's been through enough in Bosnia, Seirra Leone(sp?), N.Irland, Kosovo was ok he said though. I wont go into details of the things he told me, but all i can say is that Iraq wont be pretty.

Why can't people just get along! Killing people has never solved a thing, yes i agree Saddam is an evil guy, and has to be stopped, but is violence the only way? arent we just going to be sinking to his level by killing innocent people? no matter what anyone says civilians will be hurt, they always are. Can't we find some other way of bringing around peace?



Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:I think there will definitely be war but I'm worried that we may be headed for another Vietnam.

I read somewhere that the American's will commit as few ground forces as possible relying on precision bombing and an upsurgance by the people to combine with their efforts and oust Saddam.

The thing is that during the last conflict the US told them to rebel and they didn't follow through on their promises, which resulted in people being slaughtered as punishment by Saddam.

If the Iraqi people don't buy in the American's could be facing another embarrasment, whether through withdrawal, heavy casualties or having to blow the shit out of Bagdad to try and salvage something from the effort.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray,

I agree that it is possible that the oil wasn't Bush's main impetus at first, but let's think about it.

Suppose we march in there, oust Saddam, and set up a U.S. puppet government. The next thing that will happen is that ExxonMobil, BP-Amoco, Texaco, Phillips, et al will be in there setting up oil derricks.

Bush gets to call the U.S. the "liberators" of Iraq, but what he's really done is replace one bad situation with another. For the Iraqis, they now have to work under a U.S. puppet government for ludicrously low wages serving U.S. corporations. And let's not forget that the Bush family has some serious oil ties.

In the long term, that is going to lead to a much larger problem than Saddam ever could have been.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Bram....
member
Location: the arms of the Ganja Goddess
Member Since: 17th May 2002
Total posts: 1551
Posted:and this has also lead to the Home Security Bill being put up before senate. If his bill is passed, it will be like martial law, but you can still go anywhere in America that you want. They will be allowed to spy on you, know what you ate for breakfast, how much you ate, etc.

You. Its whats for dinner!

As time passes, you realise all the mistakes you amde and the ones you wish you never did make.

The wave crashing on the beach

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Urban_Culture
member
Location: coventry, midlands, uk
Member Since: 21st Nov 2001
Total posts: 89
Posted:quote: Yes it is undeniable that Saddam is an evil man and needs to be removed from power.

yes it is undinable that bush is an evil man and needs to be removed from power!

In my opinon Bush is the bigesst threat to present day!


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Fire_Emanator
member
Location: Australia
Member Since: 14th Aug 2002
Total posts: 96
Posted:I bet the Iraqi's are shivvering in their boots...HAHAHAHAHAHA

From CNN.com:
The society survey found that only about one in seven -- 13 percent -- of Americans between the age of 18 and 24, the prime age for military warriors, could find Iraq. The score was the same for Iran, an Iraqi neighbor.

for more:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/index.html


Free your mind and your ass will follow!

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:Its difficult to have any kind of debate on any BBS without it turning into a flame war or character assassination.

That being said, I felt that I should point something out.

I am at heart a peaceful man. I would love it if everyone else felt the same way, but that is not in keeping with human nature, as is evidenced by the history of our kind.

While I am not in favor of war, there ARE times when it is important to bear arms. WWII, is an example where there really was little choice. I suppose it could be argued that capitulating to Hitler WAS a choice, but then all of my family would have gone the way of my great uncle...into concentration camps and eventual extermination.
In such a case where self-preservation is at stake then it is fitting that we defend what we cherish.

To speak in broad terms, there are those who will fight to protect what they love and those who won't....one side is always victorious, at least in this life.

That being said, I do not think that attacking Iraq at this time is an example of a justified war.
I do not blame Bush or the Republicans for the current state of the US economy, but it seems to me that he is avoiding trying to deal with that issue and deflecting attention by finding a scape goat. His father's approval rating went through the roof during Desert Storm and as the current President is in the business of refinishing "old cabinets" he is reaching for the same solution.

If anybody saw the movie "Wag the Dog" this is exactly what is happening now.

Hopefully in 2004 they will count ALL the votes and we can change the current administration.

Raphael


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:[Anxiously waiting for this conversation to turn into personal attacks so I have someone to cheer for... C'mon, where's the knee jerk anti-american backlash doves vs. the cocky manifest destiny Hawks?!]

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:NYC,

Why don't we fight about the pros & cons of domed stadiums, astroturf and the designated hitter rule instead?



Raphael


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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Sorry NYC, I'm too busy thinking about finalising my initial packing theory.

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N8
member
Location: NY, USA
Member Since: 10th Apr 2001
Total posts: 336
Posted:quote:Originally posted by flash fire:
*chooses to bite her tongue, cos it's just not worth it**Give Flash a nod of agreement*

Took the words right out of my mouth.


Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Urban_Culture:
quote: Yes it is undeniable that Saddam is an evil man and needs to be removed from power.

yes it is undinable that bush is an evil man and needs to be removed from power!

In my opinon Bush is the bigesst threat to present day!Can you back that up with any real fact?

Fire if 1 in 7 can find it, I think that means that those people would probably not be going to war. I think CNN should tell people to try to find Guam! Heck I've been there and still have trouble finding it on a map hehe

Bram, something I cought the tail end of on BBC, some guy was saying that before the bill would go to the President for signing it was to go through some major reforms. Like I said I cought the tail end of it so other than that I really cant say anything more.

Personally Uncle Sam already knows what I eat and when, but I would rather he didnt know too much more about me.

Mike I can see Bush putting that kind of spin on things. I would hope that it is not going to be as bad as you speculate it will. We can only sit back and watch.

deepsoulsheep, I seriusly doubt that it will be another Vietnam. The Iraqi Army is underfunded and underfed. They do not have the aid of China or any other amount of forgine aid. They have pretty much pissed off all their neighbors, Iran doesnt like them, Kuait... duh I mean they are pretty much stuck with soldiers that dont really want to fight. I think what happend 12 years ago will happen again. Mass amounts of iraqies surendering.

Pink Poi, trade embargos didnt work political ideas have not worked. Honestly I dont think that there is any other way it can happen.

*Awaits Dom's responce*


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:[Confused and concerned as to why Ray seems to be baiting Dom... and the rest of us... I did have some valid points on the subject but cannot imagine how it could possibly be useful to express them here.]

Don't Bite Dom. Save your energy for Decom. You'll need it.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Bah, not baiting Dom. I am actually looking forward to what he has to say.

The man comes up with 70 reasons why something should go a certain way. The funny thing is, he cares more about the 70 reasons than the outcome.

*besides I have an ace *


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Bendy
member
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Member Since: 29th Aug 2001
Total posts: 750
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raphael96:

Why don't we fight about the pros & cons of domed stadiums, astroturf and the designated hitter rule instead?
RaphaelBaseball? Nobody understands baseball!
(apologies to Casey Jones from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie)


Courage is the man who can stop after only one peanut

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:*sigh*
And here I was, thinking you were after a good chat about an important topic.
Sorry Ray, but you're blatantly baiting and goading, you do it all the time. You're post above is a direct personal comment against me that I can only assume is meant to get me posting. You've even got an 'ace' waiting for when I do reply. You're seeing this as a way to get one over on me.

So, this isn't what you're trying to make it look like. I can only see this as being a bit silly and so see no reason to post here, especially as I'm about to power down my PC for about 6 months.

Everyone else please continue.... Cheerio!


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom, all I am after is a good chat, I have in my head what I think you would say, I also have a counter for it. Like a mental game of chess I tried to compinsate for you moves before you made them.

I am kinda bummed that you dont want to chat. Ohh well, enjoy your 6 month vacation. Perhaps when you return you will be more ready to chat. Untill then I will have to keep my ideas stuck in me head.

However, its not all about you! I know its a shock, but there are some other people I would like to hear from as well. I just said I had an ace for you, not for them.

Personally Dom, if someone went through a bit of trouble to counter me I would take it as a compliment. You, however think differently from me, so maybe you dont see it as a compliment.

Ohh well 'till next time.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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SickpuPpy
SickpuPpy

Ninja Rockstar!
Location: Denver, Co. U.S.A.
Member Since: 27th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1100
Posted:quote:Sickpuppy, WWII brought the US econimy up from a serius slump. I think that war is good for the US econimy. We also export more than you think. I mean farmers are paid not to plant seeds. Our biggest export is food.

Our economy was much diffirent during WWII. WWII pulled us out of the great depression because it created jobs while at the same time reducing the amount of people to fill them. At that time in US history no one would even consider buying foriegn radios or automobiles. There was no such thing as a supermarket, or a modern shopping mall. WWII reopend factories to build airplanes, bombs, guns, and to make uniforms and such. The government even temporarily lifted the ban on growing hemp for the war effort. The political attitude was also diffirent. People trusted thier government. Back then most every product that an American consumed was made in the US and by US citezens. Things are diffirent now. Most people buy japanese cars, electronics, and appliences. We import most everything because its cheeper for the comsumer.

Remember also that I live in Colorado. There is a ton of farm country around here in most every direction. I have even had the pleasure of meeting a few of the people who run them and work on them. It isn't accurate to say that farmers are paid not to plant seeds. They are subsidized by the government because no one buys what they grow. I hear stories of whole crops of corn and soy beans rotting in the fields becuase the US farmers need to sell at a certain price to survive and keep thier farms, feed thier families, ext. But the commodities market can buy the same crops from South American farmers at a fraction of the price that US farmers can afford to sell for.

I know it's against the Geneva convention and all, but it would seem that for 1 billion dollars a day it would be much more cost effective to find someone close to Hussein who would be willing to assasinate him for a billion dollars, rather than dragging this whole thing out with the American tax payers footing the bill with thier already over extended credit.

[ 22. November 2002, 17:45: Message edited by: SickpuPpy ]


Jesus helps me trick people.

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:Gee, I didn't realize this was a scripted debate.

Dom, you picked a good time to take a break!

Raphael


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Raph where is your spirit for fun?

Sickpuppy, your very right, the econimy was different. Heck I wish we could go back to those simpler days sometimes.

That still bums me out that Dom doesnt want to rise to the challenge.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:Ray you should try doing research on the sanctions placed on Iraq and you might be able to understand where their anger stems from and now the US wants to add more to that suffering by going to war.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Well, before there was a trade embargo, before Iraq attacked Kuait, Saddam had pillaged his own country. His military was not paid, young men were forced to fight for him, they were barly fed and had little water.

America sends food to Iraq, medicine to Iraq and other things. Yes we do prevent them from getting some things and from sending out somethings, like oil.

The embargo is not out to hurt the people but it is out there to prevent the government from getting items that could be used to hurt a mass amount of peopel. I wish Saddam would take his punishment like a man instead of continuing to hurt his people but things just dont go that way sometimes.

Yes war does cost blood, and yes, I am paying!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:My spirit of fun is still very much intact. But I don't think that basically calling Dom out is fun at all, just a display of schoolyard BS.

I love an honest, open debate where the topic can be argued without resorting to cheap shots. This thread is just some kind of set-up.

Raphael


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Tika
member
Location: BC, Canada
Member Since: 1st Jan 2002
Total posts: 106
Posted:quote: The embargo is not out to hurt the people but it is out there to prevent the government from getting items that could be used to hurt a mass amount of peopel. Like I said do your research on the subject. If the sanctions aren't out to hurt a mass amount of people why is there so much opposition against them.

Here is a quote you might want to think about.

quote: On 12 May 1996 Madeleine Albright demonstrated the difficulties involved in admitting the consequences of these sanctions in an appearance on the US television show, 60 Minutes. At the time she was the US ambassador to the United Nations; six months later she became Secretary of State. Host Lesley Stahl, referring to a 1995 figure, asked:

Stahl: "We have heard that a half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?"

Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."
If the sanctions weren't out to hurt people why are there millions of children dying. It's not just " items that could be used to hurt a mass amount of people" that are beening kept for Irag, granted they are hurting a mass amount of people IN Iraq. Here is a list of some of the things that are items banned by sanctions.

agricultural pesticides
all electrical equipment
all other building materials ambulances
baby food
badminton rackets
bandages
blankets
boots
cannulas for intravenous drips catheters for babies
children's bicycles
children's clothes
chlorine and other water
purification chemicals
cleaning agents
cobalt sources for X-ray
machines
deodorants
dialysis equipment
disposable surgical gloves
drugs for angina
ECG monitors
erasers
glue for textbooks
incubators
leather material for shoes lipsticks
medical gauze
medical journals
medical swabs
medical syringes
medication for epilepsy
nail polish
nasogastric tubes
notebooks
nylon cloth for filtering flour
other adult clothes
oxygen tents
paper
pencil sharpeners
pencils
ping-pong balls
polyester & acrylic yarn rice rubber tubes
school books
school handicraft equipment
shampoo
shirts
shoe laces
shroud material
soap
sanitary towels
specific granite shipments
specific umbilical catheters
steel plate stethoscopes
suction catheters for blockages surgical instruments
textile plant equipment
thread for children's clothes
tissues
toilet paper
tooth brushes
toothpaste
various other foodstuffs
wool felt for thermal insulation
X-ray equipment
X-ray film

And now US whats to go to war so that the US economy can be lifted. How is that fair?


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Now can you show me where you found out your list of items banned by the sactions?

It was not to be a cheap shot at Dom. Dom and I have very good relationship when it comes to arguing, however I dont feel that I have ever beaten him at a debate. Now that I have something that I am confident will beat him, he wont play. It is a bit of schoolyard BS but it isnt an attack on Dom.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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lightbug
member
Location: arizona
Member Since: 24th May 2002
Total posts: 321
Posted:no one likes war its definately a last resort but some leaders will respond to nothing less. sadam is one. regardless of bush personal reasons to want sadam there definately his driving force. sadam did try to kill his dad an all.. it still somthin that needs to be done he uses fear and violence to control everything around him. hes a thug. i dont think its good to let him run wild gettin away with all of his shit. maybe its jus me but i hate when people get away w/ things like that. i dont like how bush talks about iraq he does more to hinder the war effort then anything . he sends the wrong message to the world. its not about him though its about once and for all freeing the arabs of that tyrant. it needs to be done and dont think you can wait for him to die of old age cause his sons are gonna be a much bigger problem if they come into power.

oh and by the way hello everyone its been a while since i have posted on hop. did ya miss me i know dom did haha. jus playin


drugs.. rock and roll. bad ass.. vegas hoes.. late night. booty calls.. shiny disco balls!!

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