Forums > Social Discussion > URGENT ACTION NEEDED FOR THE Christmas Islands!!!

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
Your post may get more attention if it were more culturally tolerant. Not all of us celebrate the same days.

Regarding the red crabs of the HOLIDAY Islands, I think that I would probably be willing to kill 1.5 million crabs in order to save a human life... humans are just that much more valuable to me. The only thing that would give me pause is the question of whether the destruction of the crabs might somehow affect other humans.

Some might say I feel this way because it's an evolved characteristic that values my species over others (survival of the fittest). Others might say that it is because humans were created inherently different from crabs, and it is natural for me to treat them differently. Others might say that every life is equally valuable, in which case I must starve (since I lack the facilities to manufacture food purely out of nonliving material). Others might say that all things are equally valuable, regardless of whether they are alive or not, which is perhaps the weirdest thought of all.

If they deserve to continue to exist as their own little species, let them evolve. If we try to artificially keep every weak species on this planet, we will never have the opportunity to evolve better adapted ones. The majority of all species that have ever existed have been wiped out. I'm not going to cry about it.

However, the rioting in Australia makes me sad.

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
What gives a human more right to live than a crab?

We are all just another species on this big rock

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

"Will's to pretty for prison" - Simian

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
I know plenty of people, who, given a chance I would gladly sacrifice to bring tigers back from the edge of extinction.

The animals haven't done anything to deserve being wiped out. The humans HAVE. I would probably say "yes" to someone who offered to wipe out half the human race in order to bring animal populations to the same place they were in 1200 AD. Simply on the basis that the human race is the worst thing to happen to the planet since the meteorite wiped out the dinosaurs. I'd take a 50/50 chance of survival to replenish the planet any day of the week.

After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Posted: 16th Dec 2005

Written by: Patriarch917

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Your post may get more attention if it were more culturally tolerant. Not all of us celebrate the same days.

Regarding the red crabs of the HOLIDAY Islands,

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I think that inflicting a supposedly PC name on a place that residents call Christmas Islands is probably itself remarkably culturally intolerant. The name itself doesn't have any religeous connotations in this context - it'd be just like naming it April Fool's Day Island had William Mynors landed there on the first of April.

Written by:

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If they deserve to continue to exist as their own little species, let them evolve.

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Do you also advocate clearfelling of rainforests? I imagine you do, because obviously they should have evolved chainsaw resistant bark if they wanted to stay alive.
How about killing off jews? Because, y'know, they havn't evolved to high enough standards yet.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Posted: 16th Dec 2005

Written by: Patriarch917

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Your post may get more attention if it were more culturally tolerant. Not all of us celebrate the same days.

Regarding the red crabs of the HOLIDAY Islands, I think that I would probably be willing to kill 1.5 million crabs in order to save a human life...

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noting you intellectual appearance and well articulated views, though I'm talking about the Christmas Islands - Part of Australian soil and the red crab (Gecarcoidea natalis) that is migrating there...

or maybe I just don't get your joke...

And even though I am part of the human species (at least this very body that I use) I have to admit, there are "fellow specimen" I wouldn't even consider to waste a SINGLE crabs life for... there are some celeb examples which I will not point out right here and now...

Especially not those who are right now deliberatly planning what is meantioned above... yeah I know but when will these sapiens become homo?

In addition: as the dominant species here on this rock, it's one of our duties to care for what you call the "weaker"...

Put yourself in the middle of Asian, or African rainforest and we'll see how long you'll last my friend - without help and manmade tools...

Written by:

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If they deserve to continue to exist as their own little species, let them evolve. If we try to artificially keep every weak species on this planet, we will never have the opportunity to evolve better adapted ones. The majority of all species that have ever existed have been wiped out. I'm not going to cry about it.

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If we are artificially destroying every "weak" and "unnessesary" species on this planet - we should maybe start with our very selves, as every single one of us (by himself) is prone to become birdfood within - lets say 120 days...?!!!

If I look deeper into it - we're already on the plan!

Riots in Sydney? Giv'em some shotguns and leav'em work it out by 'emselves, will ya?

Given that I just can't folow your post, Patriarch, i.e am too numb to fineadjust to what you want to imply here...

Personally I LOVE the footage of a million crabs migrating to the ocean and appearing like a thick canopy of crawling somethings - crawly, not creepy... virtually flooding whole villages stopping all every days routine - as a natural phenomenon...

but I'm happy on the other hand that putting a provocative statement on top of this thread keeps it buoyanced on the first two pages and leads people to post their opinions of "life on mother earth"...

maybe I'm just too oldskool... dunno

the best smiles are the ones you lead to

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
The way I see it Patriarch's post knocked this thread a long way off the course of the original post, which had nothing to do with the name of secular winter festivals. It had nothing to do with trading human life for other forms of life and absolutely nothing to do with the evolutionary prowess of the red crabs.

The first post was about the quest for money and resources, and the resulting environmental devastation. It's that simple.

Is the 1.5 million the entire population? or just a percentage? Might it be an acceptable percentage? after all what's a couple of million if the population is billions?

Posted: 16th Dec 2005

Written by: stout

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The way I see it Patriarch's post knocked this thread a long way off the course of the original post, which had nothing to do with the name of secular winter festivals. It had nothing to do with trading human life for other forms of life and absolutely nothing to do with the evolutionary prowess of the red crabs.

The first post was about the quest for money and resources, and the resulting environmental devastation. It's that simple.

Is the 1.5 million the entire population? or just a percentage? Might it be an acceptable percentage? after all what's a couple of million if the population is billions?

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Ok, so the “holiday islands” line was just a joke based on a big debate we’re having in America.

However, I contest your assertion that my topic weighing the difference in value between humans and crabs was off topic. It was a direct, relevant, and on topic response to question A), which asked why we were concerned with danger to human life in other threads but were not responding to this thread regarding the danger to crab life.

I tried to give a justification. While I don’t actually believe that the values derived from the theory of evolution should actually be applied to human/animal (or human/human) relationships, I guessed that bringing up that perspective would draw people to the discussion (which is what I think Firetom wants).

I think that Firetom edited his first post to add the question that I answered. If you had read the original post, then read my reply without noticing that he had added that question, you would be justified in thinking that I had taken it off topic. I suspect that this is where the misunderstanding lies.

The question posed by Pyrowill is an interesting one. “What gives a human more right to live than a crab? We are all just another species on this big rock.”

From an evolutionary perspective, I think that natural selection encourages species to compete for limited resources and to prey on each other. This pressure causes a species to either grow stronger or be wiped out to make room for a better one. In general, all animal life prey on other life forms. The bugs eat the plants, the birds eat the bugs, the cats eat the birds. Given the opportunity, any one of these will drive the other out of existence. Locusts will eat every green thing around until there is nothing left, and they will not be bothered to plant more crops for next year. As a result, the plants are few in number or nonexistent, and the locusts die.

Throughout history, species have been driven to extinction by other species and by outside events. If humans truly are “just another species on this big rock” then they should not be held to any higher standard than previous species. Humans have the right to do as they please. If destroying other species results in their own destruction, nature will have judged them to be “too predatory.” Plenty of animals have hunted their food to extinction, and then died themselves. Does this mean they go to hell?

What makes humans different is that we are smart, far smarter than anything else. We have the ability to project the consequences of our actions. We realize that if we eat an entire crop this year we will die the next, so we save some seed and plant it again. We keep other species alive, artificially, to benefit ourselves. We protect our favorite species against those that would attack it (we use pesticides), and we are even beginning to try to make new species that can help us.

Stewardship is a feature mostly restricted to humans. No other animal is able to carry on this sort of activity. This truly sets us apart and makes us unique on this planet.

However, we are still operating under the same rules as all the other animals, just at a more sophisticated level. While other animals act selfishly in killing other life forms, we act selfishly in keeping them alive. We do not raise cattle because we think the cattle have a “right” to be alive, we raise them because they taste good. We do not plant flowers because they are a species that we judge to be just as important as ourselves, we plant them because we like them.

In other words, whether we save a species or destroy it still ultimately depends on whether we think it will be more of a benefit or a detriment to humanity.

As I said, I don’t actually believe that these values should be “normatively” applied. My value system is not derived from the theory of the evolution of species. However, it is an interesting description that seems to explain a lot.

Under this system, I will spend more time worrying about direct threats to humanity, such as racist violence, if I think that it is more important to humanity than crab migration. In other words, the best way to get my attention would be to create a post that says “Man-eating crabs invade islands… millions of children eaten” or perhaps “Delicious crabs leave islands, millions of children starve.”

But, as I said, I don’t really believe all of this. I value the crabs as if they were subjects in my kingdom. I believe that I have been entrusted with their protection, but that I owe a higher duty to humanity.

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
I see now, Patriarch, you and I were viewing question A in a different context, and when I reread it with your view in mind then I can see why you wrote what you did. Those happened to be two threads that I really didn't see as anything other than news items, so I was just assuming FireTom saw them the same way.

The holiday islands? let me guess, The War on Christmas, right? sheesh, it that thing selling?

I also have to question whether humans are the only species capable of stewardship but I'll have to leave that up to further research. I seem to remember something about ants farming aphids.

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
I think your right about the ants farming aphids. I knew there was an exception, I just couldn't think of it. There are probably some others. However, I think their "stewardship" is more of a symbiotic relationship and is based on instict, rather than the ability to rationally project the consequences of their actions.

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
in the science of discworld wasnt there a very successful race of crabs?



"There’s strange and scary life in the seas, now there’s a colony of crabs. The crabs get killed by a meteor and life begins its struggle again. "







erm... i'm not going to go into all my ecological beliefs, cant go writing more than one long post in an evening



public pressure must be able to have a positive effect here,

"The Christmas Islands (135 sq-kilometres in size) are fullfilling 3 out of four conditions to be registered as a world heritage area... "

has anyone pushed for this? how do you go about it?



theres a campaign / infomation and a contact here and if you click on "take action" you can email Ms Jane Addison - EWL Sciences - Environmental consultants for the proposed mine and Environment Minister Ian Campbell - C/- Mr Peter Davies - Environmental Assessment Branch - Department of Environment & Heritage



some interesting red crab info and pictures interestingly from the goverment of australia's department of the environment...



hmmm... maybe it would be worth contacting them to discuss the issue...



do you have a link to the news article you saw? on a map i just found it looked as though most of the island is a national park - would be interesting to see how a company could be allowed in and cause so much destruction







i'm not being very helpful am i...

sorry






Non-Https Image Link





Non-Https Image Link

EDITED_BY: Psycho_lemming (1134770351)

Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering...

Posted: 16th Dec 2005
hmmm.. further investigation...

the draft Environmental Impact Statement

"Phosphate Resources invites members of the public to provide comments on the proposed development. Comments must be in writing and received by 5.00pm Christmas Island time on 30 December 2005."

and just incase anyone wanted to comment

Ms Jane Addison
EWL Sciences
PO Box 39443
Winnellie NT 0821
Phone 08 89225213
Jane.Addison@ewlsciences.com.au

Or
Mr. Alfred Chong
Christmas Island Phosphates
Christmas Island
Phone 08 91648400
achong@cirp.com.cx

Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering...

Posted: 17th Dec 2005
Thanks guys - your hilarious

the best smiles are the ones you lead to