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Forums > Social Discussion > women partially blamed if they are raped???

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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:came across this in the news

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it has appalled me for the fact that imho no woman should be blamed if they are raped, wether they dress flirty, flirt with a man, ect NO means NO and all men should no that...

besides the majority of rapes these days are not spur of the moment attacks, the majority is either drug rape cases where it is hard to prove the case and in which case the attacker can drug any victim in the club and then escort them out with there friends not realising and ppl thinking they are genuinely drunk or where the victim actually knows there attacker and so then it is a hard conviction because its usually when they been out on a date or in domestic situations...

then how do you say any of these are the victims fault...
its intimidating for the victim as they are either dazed from the drug or embarrassed someone they thought they knew are like that and when they finally do stop feeling so intimidated there is not a lot of physical evidence...
with date rape the drug wears off in 12 hours or so and by time the memory comes back there is no proof as a ot of ppl who date rape use condoms so there is no dna evidence... there is a classic story line on hollyoaks regarding date rape drug at the minute...

and that third of the population that think that are probably rapists anyway as there is about that many amongst us.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

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Posted:
Patriarch917, I dont know what marrying radical feminists has got to do with it? But, I think you might find that many people get their idea that women are responsible for being temptresses and seductresses from Genesis 3 - The Fall of Man.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

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Posted:Written by: Patriarch917




My opinion on the issue, for those who really care, is that the idea that many people think women are somehow "responsible" for being raped is a myth espoused by the so called "radical" ............









The main feeling I've been getting from this thread, is that part of the dissagreement is stemming from some peoples inability to see that, just because there are ways a person can minimise the chances of being assualted, this does not mean that they are worthy of 'blame' if they don't follow those ways, and do get assualted.



ie if someone points out that staying sober will cut down the chance of being raped, that is in no way an attempt to put blame on a victim of rape who happens to have been drunk. Rather, it's simply good advice.



I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything which in any way puts blame on rape victims.


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

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Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Patriarch, there IS a difference between confidence and arrogance. As I said, I didn't assume you meant it that way (until I read your reply), but I agree that in law you'll be more successful ignoring that difference... if you think it's good to use everyday life and spinning forums as a practice for professional argumentation I suppose that's fine.



In science, I try to convince people by presenting things in a way they can and want to understand. Making myself sound arrogant, or superior to them, usually achieves the opposite, as does failing to sound confident, or being too patronising, so I have to find the fine line in between. I also don't like being as 100% about anything as lawyers are, because I always have to keep the option open that someone might find better explanations and I may be wrong. But I can see where you are coming from.

EDITED_BY: Birgit (1133956792)


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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

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Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917
perhaps there are people out there that would prefer a law that treats men and women as equals.


Perhaps anyone who doesnt think this is a moron.

I'm going to quietly leave this post and take a few breaths and hope to god that no one who thinks people should be treated differently because of sex, age, race , etc. ever has a hand in running anything.


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Written by: Patriarch917

Choosing to believe the woman or the man, based on their credibility alone is a very, very hard choice to make.

Ideally, there will be nearby witnesses who can say whether the woman was raped or not.




Ideally rape doesn't happen to anyone at all.

If there are witnesses - why didn't those witnesses stop the rape happening, instead of testifying later? that's warped frown

and yeah, I'd actually like the law to treat everyone equally, bt that just might be me shrug


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Kyrian


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Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: Seye

I'm going to quietly leave this post and take a few breaths and hope to god that no one who thinks people should be treated differently because of sex, age, race , etc. ever has a hand in running anything.



I don't even know where to start with this one. First of all you must be aware that most of the people who do run things hugely think this? But I'm assuming you do and its just not well written. But I did want to make sure.

Secondly, it just shouldn't even be true... Yes, there's a lot of shite instances where discrimination happens and shouldn't, where such things *don't* matter.

But- You wouldn't want to put an 80yo or a 10yo in the same types of, say, prison labor as a 20yo...

Although in most cases racial discrimination is beyond wrong you would actually want to pick certain races or genders in advertising so you'll hit your target market....

And I don't suppose anyone really thinks co-ed prisons are a good idea?

What about the ability to choose the gender of your ob-gym, if you're female? (For the record I really wish I could I've often been denied the ability to see males over this and most of the females are MEAN. But no-one would ever have denied me the ability to see a female one...)

I don't think soldiers should be held to different standards in the army, or any of that affirmative action gone wrong stuff... I agree that things should be fairly equal under the law. But I'm pointing out that there are always going to be places where differences are necessary and should be acknowledged. And when people have to make laws and policies based on trends (as opposed to specific actions like court cases and job interviews, which are individuals) they may need to look at what the trends are for a specific group....


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Kyrian


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Posted:And I was going to let someone else point it out- but- in a his word/her word no violence case that means that no-one will ever get punished... in the legal system anyway, which will have some interesting complications outside of it. Now, I think this is the right thing, and how things should work... but I'd bet a lot of money not everyone is going to agree with me, especially in a lot of other cases. (Non- rape crimes, like murder for example- especially now with so much ability to fake evidence).

Keep your dream alive
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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

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Posted:Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

I'm going to quietly leave this post and take a few breaths and hope to god that no one who thinks people should be treated differently because of sex, age, race , etc. ever has a hand in running anything.



I don't even know where to start with this one. First of all you must be aware that most of the people who do run things hugely think this? But I'm assuming you do and its just not well written. But I did want to make sure.



It was just badly worded. I was so shocked by some of the comments in this topic that I just typed it without thinking too much. I know that there is a lot of discrimination by the 'powers that be' but I think its about time that it ended. I'm just stunned by the oppinions coming from what is normally such a wise and tollerent community.
Written by: Kyrian

Secondly, it just shouldn't even be true... Yes, there's a lot of shite instances where discrimination happens and shouldn't, where such things *don't* matter.

But- You wouldn't want to put an 80yo or a 10yo in the same types of, say, prison labor as a 20yo...



This is not a problem in the UK as we do not have physical labour in prisons as far as I am aware (I've never spoken to anyone who has been subjected to such work). Children should not come into this debate as they are not able to be held fully responsible for their actions.
Written by: Kyrian

Although in most cases racial discrimination is beyond wrong you would actually want to pick certain races or genders in advertising so you'll hit your target market....



If you have to concentrate on a specific group then the product that you are advertising is pointless. I really dont like the way that a products usefulness is now second to its marketting. There are a tiny number of products that are gender specific but anything that is considered 'ethnicity specific' is just plain offensive in this increasingly secular world. i.e. what is good for me is also good for people of other backgrounds.
Written by: Kyrian

And I don't suppose anyone really thinks co-ed prisons are a good idea?



I'm not entirely sure why you think this? I dont see a good reason for seperating men and women. You would also have to have special prisons for gay men and women to make this rule universal.
Written by: Kyrian

I don't think soldiers should be held to different standards in the army, or any of that affirmative action gone wrong stuff... I agree that things should be fairly equal under the law. But I'm pointing out that there are always going to be places where differences are necessary and should be acknowledged. And when people have to make laws and policies based on trends (as opposed to specific actions like court cases and job interviews, which are individuals) they may need to look at what the trends are for a specific group....


If there are trends for specific groups (which there clearly are) then we need to address why here are 'groups' in the first place. We should be aiming for a fully intergrated society. Playing up to individuals who believe that they should have their own group is only going to create a wider divide. We are starting to see this in the UK now. I firmly believe that things like 'faith based schools' only create segregation and tension between groups. (Your personal faith has no relation to the things that you should be tought in school anyway but that is a different matter)

Whether you are male, female, white, black, etc. you deserve the right to be treated equally and you should return that right to others. If you are an adult and you commit a crime you should be punished without regard to age, gender, race, etc.

Back to the matter at hand - Men and women should be treated equally when someone is accused of rape. It is obscene that they are not. The same goes for child custody cases.
Of course, we should apply common sense to every case on its own individual merits though.

At the end of the day it all comes down to this...
Written by: Immanuel Kant

Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law.


smile (sorry if this sounds like a rant - its not meant to be. this is a complicated topic to debate in text)


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Kyrian


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Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

Secondly, it just shouldn't even be true... Yes, there's a lot of shite instances where discrimination happens and shouldn't, where such things *don't* matter.

But- You wouldn't want to put an 80yo or a 10yo in the same types of, say, prison labor as a 20yo...



This is not a problem in the UK as we do not have physical labour in prisons as far as I am aware (I've never spoken to anyone who has been subjected to such work).



Ok, It does happen here tho, thats why I brought it up. It could also be the case with certain types of employement... certain jobs just require a skills set that certain people with disabilities or who are particuarly old or young can't handle adequatly... in which case they are supposed to have the job modified for them a bit, but in small companies this is of course not always possible, and thats why small companies can discriminate on certain basis (not race obviously).
Written by: Seye

Children should not come into this debate as they are not able to be held fully responsible for their actions.



Ugh, I'll drop this one, but there's so many things I would have to pick on here. I hate age discrimination against "children" who are clearly more mature than their parents... The point at which responsibility is handed of is wrong in so many ways... *erk* /don't start rant... kyri... good girl....
Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

Although in most cases racial discrimination is beyond wrong you would actually want to pick certain races or genders in advertising so you'll hit your target market....



If you have to concentrate on a specific group then the product that you are advertising is pointless. I really dont like the way that a products usefulness is now second to its marketting. There are a tiny number of products that are gender specific but anything that is considered 'ethnicity specific' is just plain offensive in this increasingly secular world. i.e. what is good for me is also good for people of other backgrounds.



You may find this not to be the case when it comes to, say, a large variety of hair products! Similarly, certain cosmetics work best on certain skin tones... this runs a gauntlet from pale/less pale to of course all shades in between depending... even within a race you're going to have to be quite picky for some of the things the advertise! Finally, demographics of an area... in a 99% black local viewing area on a television station, you'd generally want people who look more like the people you're advertising to. In Korea, you'd want Koreans. In Japan, that would be a horrible move... so would using Japanese in Korea. And in Uruguay you prolly shouldn't use blonde american models... *giggles over this one*

Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

And I don't suppose anyone really thinks co-ed prisons are a good idea?



I'm not entirely sure why you think this? I dont see a good reason for seperating men and women. You would also have to have special prisons for gay men and women to make this rule universal.



Because the trend is that men tend to be bigger and stronger than women. And so, as a group, the woman are going to be easier to shove around and beat up ... particuarly by the otherwise low on the totem pole men. I don't think sex/sexuality is the biggest issue here (Its certainly a case of what you can get in many prisons) more that you're just offering up a group thats easier to pick on on the whole....

Written by: Seye

If there are trends for specific groups (which there clearly are) then we need to address why here are 'groups' in the first place. We should be aiming for a fully intergrated society.



Groups create identity. And the less you are "on top" of society the more you need that. There will always be groups, and they will always want to be different...

Written by: Seye

Playing up to individuals who believe that they should have their own group is only going to create a wider divide.



Now this is very very true. We need to get some serious work done to make people see how things should work out tho....

Written by: Seye

We are starting to see this in the UK now. I firmly believe that things like 'faith based schools' only create segregation and tension between groups. (Your personal faith has no relation to the things that you should be tought in school anyway but that is a different matter)



Yeah. Not sure I see why it was brought up... but I agree anyway.

Written by: Seye

Back to the matter at hand - Men and women should be treated equally when someone is accused of rape. It is obscene that they are not.



The one argument I see fmr the other side which I will give some credit to is if we do this consistently most non-violent rape will go unpunished. His word, her word, no evidence, no witnesses, innocent until proven guilty. And I mean non-violent in the sense of "doesn't leave a mark" not actualy "contains no violence..." frown
Now, this is, imo, exactly what a court of law should do. But what it will lead to is guys realizing they can get away with it... and so more cases. Unless women start not going places alone, etc, there's not going to be a good way to put a stop to the increase... and may lead, in certain circles, to quite a bit of violence between people seeking "revenge"
And that, I think, is where people start to get worried. Not saying this means anything *should* be different than perfectly fair, I'm pointing out what people worry about.... and that it is a valid worry, despite everything.


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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

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Posted:Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

Children should not come into this debate as they are not able to be held fully responsible for their actions.



Ugh, I'll drop this one, but there's so many things I would have to pick on here. I hate age discrimination against "children" who are clearly more mature than their parents... The point at which responsibility is handed of is wrong in so many ways... *erk* /don't start rant... kyri... good girl....



You're definitely right about that one. On the whole though bad kids are a result of bad parenting though. Its hard to decide how old and mature you have to be before you are able to see right from wrong clearly for yourself.
Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

Although in most cases racial discrimination is beyond wrong you would actually want to pick certain races or genders in advertising so you'll hit your target market....



If you have to concentrate on a specific group then the product that you are advertising is pointless. I really dont like the way that a products usefulness is now second to its marketting. There are a tiny number of products that are gender specific but anything that is considered 'ethnicity specific' is just plain offensive in this increasingly secular world. i.e. what is good for me is also good for people of other backgrounds.



You may find this not to be the case when it comes to, say, a large variety of hair products! Similarly, certain cosmetics work best on certain skin tones... this runs a gauntlet from pale/less pale to of course all shades in between depending... even within a race you're going to have to be quite picky for some of the things the advertise! Finally, demographics of an area... in a 99% black local viewing area on a television station, you'd generally want people who look more like the people you're advertising to. In Korea, you'd want Koreans. In Japan, that would be a horrible move... so would using Japanese in Korea. And in Uruguay you prolly shouldn't use blonde american models... *giggles over this one*



This I'm not too sure about. I dont get the point of cosmetics. I think its truly bizzarre that women (and more and more men now) think its normal behaviour to paint themselves before they go outside.
I also dont think that the TV regions thing is important in any way. In fact I think it is conterproductive to creating an intergrated community. I dont think that the colour of your skin or the area that you were born in have anything to do with who you identify with. That is simply a form of subconscious racism that can be addressed by not picking people who look a certain way to appear on TV. I barely even notice a persons skin tone especially on TV (as a kid I dont think that I ever considered that the cast of Fresh Prince of Bel Air was 90% black - it never had any influence over how I saw the characters). Problems only arrise when people start trying to show you 'your demographic'. My demographic is human. I dont think it needs to be any more specific than that.
Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

And I don't suppose anyone really thinks co-ed prisons are a good idea?



I'm not entirely sure why you think this? I dont see a good reason for seperating men and women. You would also have to have special prisons for gay men and women to make this rule universal.



Because the trend is that men tend to be bigger and stronger than women. And so, as a group, the woman are going to be easier to shove around and beat up ... particuarly by the otherwise low on the totem pole men. I don't think sex/sexuality is the biggest issue here (Its certainly a case of what you can get in many prisons) more that you're just offering up a group thats easier to pick on on the whole....



If that is the reasoning then we also need to split prisons by weight and height within the sexes. The vast majority of people in prisons are of no danger to anyone. Most are in for non violent crimes and even some of those who were violent decide to change their ways. I think this is more true for the UK than the US but I'm not entirely sure. I know a few people who have spent time in british prisons and say that bullying really doesnt exist and the culture is more based on trying to 'make the most of it'.
Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

If there are trends for specific groups (which there clearly are) then we need to address why here are 'groups' in the first place. We should be aiming for a fully intergrated society.



Groups create identity. And the less you are "on top" of society the more you need that. There will always be groups, and they will always want to be different...



Again, I'm not so sure. I think we are conditioned to think that grouping ourselves is normal. In fact making yourself part of a 'group' removes certain free choices from you. Most of the people that I call friends fit into no group and are individuals who make their own choices. I'm sure there are a lot of people tagged as 'spinners' or 'hippies' who actually dont subscribe to any individual group ideology either.
Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

Playing up to individuals who believe that they should have their own group is only going to create a wider divide.



Now this is very very true. We need to get some serious work done to make people see how things should work out tho....

Written by: Seye

We are starting to see this in the UK now. I firmly believe that things like 'faith based schools' only create segregation and tension between groups. (Your personal faith has no relation to the things that you should be tought in school anyway but that is a different matter)



Yeah. Not sure I see why it was brought up... but I agree anyway.



Just an example to explain why 'groups' are destructive to the wider community.
Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

Back to the matter at hand - Men and women should be treated equally when someone is accused of rape. It is obscene that they are not.



The one argument I see fmr the other side which I will give some credit to is if we do this consistently most non-violent rape will go unpunished. His word, her word, no evidence, no witnesses, innocent until proven guilty. And I mean non-violent in the sense of "doesn't leave a mark" not actualy "contains no violence..." frown
Now, this is, imo, exactly what a court of law should do. But what it will lead to is guys realizing they can get away with it... and so more cases. Unless women start not going places alone, etc, there's not going to be a good way to put a stop to the increase... and may lead, in certain circles, to quite a bit of violence between people seeking "revenge"
And that, I think, is where people start to get worried. Not saying this means anything *should* be different than perfectly fair, I'm pointing out what people worry about.... and that it is a valid worry, despite everything.


I think the problem with the law as it stands at the moment is that it is very easy for a woman to make an accusation of rape that they know to be false, cry a bit and even if they lose in court they have branded the man a rapist for life.
In the last few years I've seen both sides of why this law is wrong. I've seen the law fail a girl and a lad for the reasons that have already been discussed in this topic.

Its just lucky that I've never had any faith in the British legal system or I could have been really dissapointed with it.


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dani_babyboo
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

dani_babyboo

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Posted:jo rhymes my apologies if this post has in anyway upset u
i was very upset on hearing this on the news as it is a subject close to my heart, i myself was subject to abuse from the age of 13 onwards and only recently have admitted something was wrong and that finally i can stop blaming myself and so birgit is right we do all care, i was just curious to see if as the statistics show wether society did think like that and there is a lot of barriers in the law that dont help, and maybe this century should think about correcting old age laws...

as many have said about religion and laws and also stereotyping ppl into catagorys which i agree doesnt help the case... a girl wears make up and short skirts and has a sexy look and she is stereotyped a slut, she sleeps about a bit and enjoys it and she is a slag yet a guy dresses nice, can walk aroung with no top on, showing all they got in skimpy swim wear in the summer and they a stud, if they sleep with 100 girls they are praised upon by there mates...

so a girl who is stereotyped the slut and slag and she gets raped in any situation its her own fault yet if a nun or muslim woman is raped society go mad its ridiculous... despite what you dress like and who you are it doesnt give any guy the right to sexually touch any woman in any way. no means no
as for the screaming out theory! have any of you ever been in a situation that scared you so much you freeze and all you body can do is tense up, you are crying silent dry tears, your throat feels so sore you couldnt cry out if you wanted to, the pain is so unbearable be it physical or emotional pain you pass out during what is happening to you and after you throw up and the attacker calmly says that you should have told them if ou was ill and they woud have waited... it is the worst feeling in the world and id never in a million years wish that on any body but this whole world is messed up, poeple are not human anymore i dont know what they are but they are inhumane to do half the things that go on in this world..
ppl blow themselves u for religion ffs and kill 100s if not 1000s of innocent ppl just to prove a point

sorry if im ranting but im tired and its been a long day..


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
insert ur token

o jej, ale bym ci wylizal ten pepek

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: Seye

I dont get the point of cosmetics. I think its truly bizzarre that women (and more and more men now) think its normal behaviour to paint themselves before they go outside.



Be that as it may, its a part of culture. And actually, besides sometimes just being for fun, there is something more attarctive about making skin smoother or making eyes slightly more defined... to many people.

Written by: Seye

I also dont think that the TV regions thing is important in any way. In fact I think it is conterproductive to creating an intergrated community. I dont think that the colour of your skin or the area that you were born in have anything to do with who you identify with. That is simply a form of subconscious racism that can be addressed by not picking people who look a certain way to appear on TV. I barely even notice a persons skin tone especially on TV (as a kid I dont think that I ever considered that the cast of Fresh Prince of Bel Air was 90% black - it never had any influence over how I saw the characters). Problems only arrise when people start trying to show you 'your demographic'. My demographic is human. I dont think it needs to be any more specific than that.



Unfortunately a lot of people don't feel that way. In some cases, at all...
Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

And I don't suppose anyone really thinks co-ed prisons are a good idea?



I'm not entirely sure why you think this? I dont see a good reason for seperating men and women. You would also have to have special prisons for gay men and women to make this rule universal.



Because the trend is that men tend to be bigger and stronger than women. And so, as a group, the woman are going to be easier to shove around and beat up ... particuarly by the otherwise low on the totem pole men. I don't think sex/sexuality is the biggest issue here (Its certainly a case of what you can get in many prisons) more that you're just offering up a group thats easier to pick on on the whole....



If that is the reasoning then we also need to split prisons by weight and height within the sexes. The vast majority of people in prisons are of no danger to anyone. Most are in for non violent crimes and even some of those who were violent decide to change their ways. I think this is more true for the UK than the US but I'm not entirely sure. I know a few people who have spent time in british prisons and say that bullying really doesnt exist and the culture is more based on trying to 'make the most of it'.



Much more true for the UK. Not unheard of here, but neither is violence! And it can be very very pervasive. Breaking up by thing like height/weight wouldn't be bad either. But the stereotypes work out well enough... protecting people isn't a bad thing, imo, when you're chaining them down somewhere...

Written by: Seye

Written by: Kyrian

Written by: Seye

If there are trends for specific groups (which there clearly are) then we need to address why here are 'groups' in the first place. We should be aiming for a fully intergrated society.



Groups create identity. And the less you are "on top" of society the more you need that. There will always be groups, and they will always want to be different...



Again, I'm not so sure. I think we are conditioned to think that grouping ourselves is normal. In fact making yourself part of a 'group' removes certain free choices from you. Most of the people that I call friends fit into no group and are individuals who make their own choices. I'm sure there are a lot of people tagged as 'spinners' or 'hippies' who actually dont subscribe to any individual group ideology either.



True. But how do we change this? And grouping is normal as well, just because people wind up not wanting to think for themselves... not sure if that's conditioning or human nature, there.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

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Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Seye

I think we are conditioned to think that grouping ourselves is normal.




No, it really IS normal. 90something percent of the animal population live in groups. Groups are more efficient than individuals because the workload is split more efficiently. It's been that way since the dawn of time. And now that it's no longer necessary to group to survive, then we group to feel comfortable. We feel more comfortable with people who think/act the same way we do, so it's not surprising that people from similar backgrounds, faiths and ethos' group together.

Written by: Seye

I'm sure there are a lot of people tagged as 'spinners' or 'hippies' who actually dont subscribe to any individual group ideology either.




We have an ideology now? That's a new one... I have yet to find anyone who makes assumptions about me just because I spin Staff. They might think "Unusual past-time" but that's about it.

Written by: Seye

We should be aiming for a fully intergrated society.




Why? Follow that train of thought to its logical conclusion and you have a vast super-country that has no-one to trade with, and how the devil do you have elections with a population of 6.2 Billion people?

It is always about "Us" and "Them". The very fabric of our national political structure depends on it. Our schooling depends on it. Everything in society draws a line between people and that's never going to change, because people are different.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:And still:

as I travel Asia (where men and women are extremely seggregated and women even take a swim in their full sareee AND unsually far apart from men) I observe western women on the beach wearing panties only... rolleyes

Many Indians from Mumbai travel to Goa ONLY and exclusively for to see naked (or almost naked) western women real live - and they come to see plenty... rolleyes

Still I observe women not only ACCEPTING drinks from total strangers - I notice women "playing the game" on guys - JUST to get a free drink and other favours... confused

I had a discussion with a former girlfriend of mine in which I asked her NOT to accept drinks from strangers on Koh Pha'ngan Trance parties... well it became a discussion... frown

I met loads of women having the skirt one inch above their crotch, the top so tight the nipples poke out and when one look at it, one's called a "perv" ---LOL--- I like (some) women dress like that - but I also have no problem and can keep my hands well to myself... But ME is not EVERYONE... un/fortunately - as you like... redface

Also I'd like to point at the fact,

that a lot of sexual abuse in families is committed by former victims...

there are (even though not as many) cases of boys getting ..(*).. by their own mother (* now how you call that one: molested?)...

(- to now make me "the a**hole" for some -)

that psychiatrists have found "a fair number" (I don't have to undelay my statements with xx,xxxxx%-figures to prove that they are fact ---covers to avoid the incoming bottle thrown at him---)... that "a number" of the boys and girls in cases of incest (! - don't mix it up!) have no problem with what happened - exept for those implied and projected by society.

that in Asia there are "Laws of Karma" - and not only that, also in the West we're speaking of the term "victim-perpetrator-relationship"... meaning if you're prone to become a victim - for sure there is someone out there who is prone to become a perpetrator... frown

that in India and also a few other countries on this planet, people have access to porn, where a growing number of wo/men show "how it (also) works" (-not in my opinion, but that doesn't matter here)...

that if you - as a woman - want to change anything in how men look at you, you may consider to spread the word also to your fellow gender that acting up in a certain way, participating in explicit movies or fotoshootings and behaving in a certain way in nightclubs/bars is certainly NOT helping the mature interaction between men and women - somehow hovering ABOVE the animalistic level of existence.

stop pointing your finger and blame someone else - start doing something about it yourself, with yourself, in your family, in your immediate environment and then raise the issue once more... and it will be much more sound.

In the meantime I will do the same for my gender. smile hug

Understanding is the key! Not creating opposites... grouphug

IMO there is no justification for violence! Hence there are triggers leading to misbehaviour and my definition of violence in general might be of a different kind:

there is no justification to put your power on anyone - neither brutally, nor sophisticated. Neither men raping women, nor women manipulating men into a certain behaviour!

Speaking of "blame" is another BS term - call it "responsibility" and you're far closer to the truth.

Acknowledge the world as it is, rather as it should be, or as we all dream about it... ubbangel

And finally if you are so much in balanced relationships and evolved living on mother earth: stop parents from dressing their babies/children like whores and hookers (+using lipgloss and nailpolish) or acknowledge the fact, that the behaviour of some population on this planet is still based on hormones and media input - still on animalistic level...

---takes his coat and runs as fast as he can out the door, into the dark night--- ubbrollsmile --leaving a note, saying: this was a quick reply only--


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

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Posted:Valid points FireTom, but I'm confused by the introduction of incest?

I (in general) agree with you... I think... about some things anyway... wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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dani_babyboo
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dani_babyboo

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Posted:I think the incest may have come because i added about the abuse from a young teenage age that could then have people assume it was a family member but no to that....

there is valid points but this whole stereo typing is down to people not understanding that different groups of people are going to dress diffently to others
im not gona deny im a raver and i wear very very lttle to raves but thats cause it gets so dam hot in there and its the fashion everyone is the same,
i like my body it took me enough time to accept it and so i like to show my legs off and wear skirts and boots and nice tops but i am careful to the extent i watch my drink now, i dont go home with strangers and i call a cab home safely with a friend or from my local cab firm with who i trust...

there is many many preventions women can take but there is never a 100 % prevention as it has been known women have been raped my taxi drivers, friends, family, boyfriends and strangers and even people in the forces have been low enough to rape innocent women when they meant to be protecting them in other countries

no matter what life isnt safe
but the fact that blaming the victim for what happened isnt going to help and will result in them either seeking there own revenge and us having murder cases flying around or worse suicides cause of the blame as beleive me getting the blame for being raped is probably one of the worst things that can happen to you


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bewitched, beaten, broken.
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FireTom


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Posted:@sethis: incest to many is considered and turned into "sexual abuse/rape" by social workers/society.



@dani: oops the usual fox and rabbit game :;):



@all:



To make my statement very clear to the dear reader:



I do NOT



- speak for sexual abuse, rape or anything that is happaning against the will of ONE of the involved "parties" (setting someone under serious influence of drugs and molesting the helpless victim is to be considered "rape" - in all of this the intent is very important - can't be measured but by the individual himself)



- think that any of this can be justified unless speaking of a disturbed, kinky behaviour/ approach towards sexuality.



I do believe -



- that the behaviour of men and women can sometimes be misunderstood and wrongfully interpreted.



- that sexuality in our society has sometimes a strange appearance and folks just don't want to clarify open (in order "not to destroy the magic" which is ok, but can lead into twisted situations)



- that putting the guilt complex on men in general is counterproductive. Suspicion of our fellow mates and every other encounter than the frank question: "Hey sweety - wanna f**k?" becomes grayscale.



Raising the issue is good and necessary, but one shouldn't get carried away with it. If we're using %-terms put out by the media, we have to get aware that we are repeating terms that suit our opinion.



We believe that X% of women got raped (but would never report it, etc.) - just as much as we believe, that there are X% of the australian public silently supporting the crackdown on minorities in their country...



In my immediate surrounding I have met a few women that have been raped - it is an issue yes, but it is an issue to be worked upon by both, men AND women.



Personally I would not like to see women in general have to dress differently, just because some guys can't tell right from wrong. I'm just calling for a little more "differentialism".



I do believe that (violent) rape, with wicked cruelty is not under sufficient punishment and perpetrators should get locked up for A VERY long time, if not for indifferent.



Enjoy your weekend and when you go out tonight - open up your eyes to the behaviour of both, men AND women in the bar/nightclub/disco.



If you're starting a conversation with someone about this topic, consider introducing it not with a bang-statement, but from the backdoor. Maybe ask that girl whether she flirted this guy only for the drink, ask this guy whether he really thinks that this girl is all about him, rather than saying: "Rape is wrong, don't you agree?"



Because IMO it's fuelling the problem if girls go out and "just wanna have fun" testing their "flirting skills", intentionally raising the frustration level of a few men out there.



Render the truth yourself.



And stop being a victim of circumstances.



Finally to answer the initial question: YES I do believe that women in general carry some responsibility for rape in general - as for the individual cases, they have to be reviewed individually.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1134699686)


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

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Posted:I personally get annoyed with stereotypes and assumed circumstances, incest is one of many. Sometimes incest is carried out with a great deal of love on both parts. I indicate "sometimes" because I accept in the majority of cases it isn't.



I agree with FireTom that girls "Baiting" men is a stupid thing to do. Mixed signals like that confuse even sober men (the next person to say "It's just you that gets confused" will get an evil look and much poking wink ). You want to try the same thing with someone who's been drinking? Because I have known girls to make out with a fit guy for an hour, and then walk away without a backward glance. That's not reasonable behaviour IMO for males *or* females because it's far too easy for people to get the wrong message about what is or is not acceptable.



But it *must* be judged on individual cases. This is one of many areas of Law when blanket statements should not be applied.

EDITED_BY: Sethis (1134698763)


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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dani_babyboo
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Posted:Written by:
Finally to answer the initial question: YES I do believe that women in general carry some responsibility for rape in general - as for the individual cases, they have to be reviewed individually.



excuse me you have just said yes women take responsibility for rape... if it is rape then no they do not if they ve faked it then it isnt rape and so they do not hold responsibility for rape but for lying about such a serious thing

never say a woman who was actually raped is ever to blame cause she isnt...

i do agree with sethis though


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
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bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
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jo_rhymes
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jo_rhymes

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Posted:Unfortunately, people will always make judgements about others. But ignorance only breeds prejudice. I think victims of abuse need to speak up and show others the truth.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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FireTom


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Posted:... that's NOT exactly what I have said... redface



please don't alter my comment in a way that suit your opinion... confused



I won't become victim to your perpetration... cool



even though I admittedly would carry some responsibility if you'd want to victimize me...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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dani_babyboo
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Posted:erm i quoted exactly what you said

read your post back first and you will see how it comes across


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
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Sethis
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Sethis

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Posted:Written by: FireTom

YES I do believe that women in general carry some responsibility for rape in general




I think the "Some" is the key part of that sentence, which you did not place in your quote of:

Written by: Dani_babyboo

you have just said yes women take responsibility for rape




He didn't say they "Take responsibility" he said they take "Some responsibility". A small and easy mistake to make, so no worries.

Someone agrees with me... I must be doing something wrong wink rolleyes

hug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Back again. I have missed a few posts though, so to re-cap:

Written by:
that psychiatrists have found "a fair number" (I don't have to undelay my statements with xx,xxxxx%-figures to prove that they are fact ---covers to avoid the incoming bottle thrown at him---)... that "a number" of the boys and girls in cases of incest (! - don't mix it up!) have no problem with what happened - exept for those implied and projected by society.




Hey Firetom, you raise an interesting point that can also be explored with regards to victims of sexual assault. And it is a lot mixed up with the same stereotypes that can contribute to assault situations in the first place. Where there is a stereotype that "a woman who sleeps with a number of guys is a slut", then when that woman is the victim of assault she can end up giving herself that label, as she fears that society has judged her to be so. (Male sexual assault victims can often experience a similar but different stereotyping, where if they are assaulted by a man they assume they must be not tough enough, not man enough. If it is by a woman then they should feel lucky, even if it is something that has been harmful to them).

There have been a couple of comments discussing "man-baiting", or behaviour that is deemed to be leading men on. Yep, it happens. Women like male attention in the same way men like female attention (and every other gender combination under the sun). They are human, like men, and they ain't always brilliant at expressing themselves, just like men. They can be complex creatures, just like men, and not really know what they want, just like men. They can be fully into flirting with a guy, but not want to go home with him. They can want to snog him in a taxi, but not sleep with him. They can come on so strong everyone in the bar knows she is interested, yet really only be ready to exchange phone numbers. They can change their minds at any time. I don't doubt that this can be confusing for a man (as confusing as it is for a woman when the man she went to dinner with last week who seemed so keen hasn't returned her calls). This is about being a human being, and accepting that we are mainly [censored] up changeable confusing lil critters. But we all have to learn to deal with it without hurting other people.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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dani_babyboo
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Posted:sethis ok he said yes some responsibility stills saying we hold part blame by saying some!!!


rozi you got that spot on
no matter how much people flirt it gives no one the right to rape someone, to take something as personal as thbat when they been told no
women can start heavy petting with a bloke but there is a limit. when i was younger i remember there being times we would kiss and touch each other but go no further till ready
these days if a woman does that its assumed they gione have sex and if a woman says no further a man will rape her anyway cause they got that far... that is still rape


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
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FireTom


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Posted:@all: I do not imply any right of any man to harrass herass -



I do not justify any kind of violence here.... confused



Maybe you read my post a little more carefully and try to get that courtain of anger out of your sight.



In my very own history I was VERY OFTEN the victim for some MF guy who tried to proove his manhood. I got beaten all the way to, in and back from school... just because I was a nice guy, but a little bigger than the average at the same time... and of course I carried some responsibility for those assAults... I was asking for trouble... redface



the way I dressed ("New Wave" back then in the 80s) in a very conservative city (munich), the way I was running around, not wearing my glasses (or contacts) even though I was a little short sighted and had to squeeze my eyes together so I could see a little more sharp... (hated glasses - never wore them...) an invitation to any screwed up dude - "just knock him a few and then the day is made"... devil frown



I even lost a tooth in a totally unprovoked assault on the Octoberfest... I was kissing my girl, when a guy tapped me on the shoulder from behind, I turned around and instantly had one of the bavarian 1liter glass pitchersFULL ON in my face, PRECISELY extracting one tooth of mine... rolleyes



I remember every single step that led to this and YES! I partially had responsibility for this happening! frown



You know girls - just face the world as it is! cool



Pointing your finger and saying: THOSE BAD GUYS ARE DOING WRRRRONG!!! doesn't help it - doesn't prevent even a single leaf from falling off the tree. shrug



TAKE responsibility instead of denying it! Don't make any wo/man a victim. Of course every victim is asking her/himself: "Am I carrying some responsibility myself?" "should I not have known better from the start?" and "Why didn't I listen to my feelings?" - because it IS A FACT! There are amilion and one "omens" "signs" "voices" callitwhatyoulike that warn one BEFORE stepping into such situation - just be honest!



As I stated: Spread the word to your fellow gender! Raise the issue - or do you just want to repeat mass media statements that obviously suit you? mad2



OF COURSE you have the right to sleep with 20 men a night!

OF COURSE you have the right to flirt with a 100



and none of the above should make you a "slut", or "whore" -

but even if it would, if would NOT give any guy the RIGHT to rape you...



Why do we have to talk about this? rolleyes



DO AS YOU LIKE! You can even shut your eyes wide open and continue dreaming and pointing at those BAD MF's and give "us" guys a bad paranoid homophobia... mad2



I just say: I won't buy it! weavesmiley



Even if spank or BDSM is ones favourite past-time no-one would have the right to abuse another more than initially agreed upon...



Every time I go out I see girls turning down or mistreating Mr. niceguy with his glasses and poloshirt in favour of the bad MF, who has to display his ugly tats, nipple and lip piercings (--- hohoho I don't want to inply that any of those guys are A***s, ok? --- I'm just using a methaphore ---)



Why like this?



How do we want to live our life? hug grouphug hug2 exactly!



UNDERSTANDING! is the key... rolleyes



babyboo please excuse me, but we're talking about guys who ceased to evolve at the age of 6 - maybe 14... just as girls did... so to speak we're all just aged kids - not necessarily matured... some have a strange attitude or way to show "love" others have even a strange perception of WHAT ubblove actually is and how to express it...



Face the facts! or deny them - as you like...



I thought you were polling for opinions and not trying to spank for it... footinmouth



Take my opinion, render it - agree or disagree (I have no fancy) peace sunny weavesmiley


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:I believe that we (both women and men!) carry responsibility for many things. Choosing between being in a "safe" or "unsafe" situation is one of those things, although I've used quotation marks for them because I believe that certain situations can only reasonably be perceived as one or the other until something does or doesn't happen.



However, rape is never included within these things because rape doesn't involve an element of such a choice by it's very definition.



Furthermore, no reputable scientific evidence I've ever read on types of rapes, or rapists themselves, ever mention the type of victim to be a provocation of rape.



In the vast majority of cases: if a rapist wants to attempt to rape someone, they will do it regardless of who that victim is, for reasons regarding the rapist, not the victim.



Cases which are the exception to this rule are those in which both rapist and victim are already acquainted, yet I'm still to read solid evidence which details the behaviour of any victim as a realistic contributory factor to any rape.



I would be interested to discover the actual questions posed in the poll.



But one of my main feelings about this issue - again, while not forgetting that men can also be victims of rape - is that I find the suggestion that men, in general, cannot control themselves due to a woman's behaviour almost as insulting towards men as it is to women.


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you are nice woman.

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:R"

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FireTom


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Total posts: 6650
Posted:Valid points - and though:



As ironically happened last night to me at the local 66nightclub in Seminyak: Two guys (one Indonesian, one western) fistfighting over reasons of drinking and disrespectful behaviour against women (the Indonesian), I got in the middle and seperated the two, received a nice solid kick from the Indonesian into the tummy as "reward" for the action.



5 Minutes later he came back giving me a solid heavy whack to my jaw and I --- LOL --- faced the extraction from the nightclub by the local crew... shrug



... I hope this time I have learned the lesson for good... just as dogfights - as long as it's not your very own dog, just don't bother - or do so (as you wish) but don't be amazed if the dogs bite you, or the owners then come at you giving you a hard time... shrug



Just before the incident I watched girls supporting the protectivism and aggression of their aquaintances...



And in opposition of your statements (dani, rozi, spanner):



There IS a key-lock principle between perpetrator and victim... (as life works in many misterious ways)... though you might not have had the insight... Of course I am (partially) to be blamed for involving myself at all in the action...



Before (in fact the whole evening) there were signs already that something is bound to happen on a low level... I had it in my guts already and when it then happened, did't follow reason but instinct... animal stage...







Some people just enjoy kicking and whacking and that's their expression of love, others don't feel themselves enough and have not been shown enough boundaries in their lives. Some guys just handle girls rough, some girls can't get along with tantra... (and vice versa) maybe you analize the "act" itself - it's (in general) not necessarily an act of tenderness (even though that's the best way to do it) - but an act of "penetration"... understand the wording? Some people are looking for whacking to learn, some need to experience how this world really is...



There are infinate combinations and situations and to brush them all over the same edge is just... rolleyes



But to round up my position to you: In case of jurisdiction this "responsibility" (of the victim) should NOT have ANY influence.



Someone decides to rape, assault, kill (or whatever) another - face the consequences...



It may not be obvious to you but we're still hovering 1 inch above the animal stage - just because we have such sophisticated tools and systems doesn't mean that we as a species have necessarily evolved along with them.



My advice: Face the world as it is and find your path to deal with it. "We have not to understand the world but live in it" (so or similar goes the quote by A. Einstein)



Personally I have had my fill of stupidity and involvement. cool







@dani: I get a liiiittle annoyed re-reading you quoting... rolleyes



the parts of my post that you decided to alter: in general some and responsibility confused



if you "quote" someone quote - meaning NOT altering his/ her words, putting it out of the context and present it to the public and pointing at: how it comes across confused



or do so if you choose, just don't expect a balanced discussion afterwards... rolleyes wink



I'm not talking of "Blame" and any legal issues coming along with it. I think that judges who excuse perpetrators, rapists and lower their penalty due to such circumstances are sick-headed and showing the wrong signs to the public...



...and that's about all that I have to say about this topic... bye


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dani_babyboo
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dani_babyboo

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Posted:i quoted exactly what you said in your last paragraph as a result of the question and the way it came across you still said some blame and no women if they are raped takes any blame they didnt ask for it to happen be it a situation they ended up in or a guy they knew no woman asks to be raped...

thats why i quoted that part and never altered no words just said how it sounded from an outsider and im sure many others seen it the same...

we may as you say have animal instincts but to be honest i find that bull crap... why is it only so many do stuff others dont, if we had animal instincts surely we all would do it and so it wouldnt have law in this world and so it wouldnt be a problem, animal instincts means as a whole we would all be the same, in the animal world all lionesses hunt, the lion protects the pack, any predator will hunt to kill and so why dont all of human kind... we are the only species to be able to control behaviour independantly, some choose to hunt for fun same as we are the only species to have sex for fun and enjoy it when it is consentual sex, rapists find joy in having a power over a person and causing pain and fear thats what they get off on, yes its understandable it could be a psychological problem but we have minds that we use to make choices, animals dont make them kind of choices and so blaming it on animal instinct is bull.


enticed, entrapped, entombed.
intoxicated, impaled, ingested.
bewitched, beaten, broken.
enter the love realm...
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FireTom


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Posted:First I guess I made my point clear WHAT I personally think about rape and violence: its not accepteable... OK? Second I stated my personal opinion that I believe that victims in general carry in fact some responsibility for the incident - even though this should not have any effect in the punishment of the perpetrators. I also belive that judges finding excuses for rapists are illminded and in the wrong position.

I have no intent that you put me in the spotlight as one who's promoting rape, or stating that perpetrators should run free, or even enjoy lowered penalties just because the victim was only wearing a tanktop and hotpants in a Harley Davidsons Riders Clubhouse in downtown Dallas, flirting with every Dude at the bar...

Are we through on this one? Please hug

Now following up on your post:

I have no interest of how other people may see something unless they speak up for themselves and if my message neither was nor is coming across to you or anyone else shrug what to do?

You may share the same wrongful believe as many other specimen of huMankind that we're not bound to instincts anymore because of our minds that liberate us from that.

[q]animal instincts means as a whole we would all be the same, in the animal world all lionesses hunt, the lion protects the pack, any predator will hunt to kill and so why dont all of human kind[/q]

Not all animals of a certain species are necessarily exactly the same in behaviour - maybe you flip your television set some more times to the discovery and nat geo-channel and you may find some different information that widen your horizon. Hence I experience ALL members of the Bush-species exactly the same in behaviour.

Some dolphins will help and protect humans - other certainly won't. Some dogs are aggressive, others are not. A Rottweiler is certainly more agressive as a Golden Retreiver, a greyhound enjoys running, whils a Pinsher... just to name some...

You consider all pieces of a species the same? Walk into an animals asylum and render, walk into a zoo and verify, speak to a veterinarian...

But alienated I would certainly consider even all mankind to be all the same: greedy.

And obviously you should read a little more psychological books if you still believe:

[q]we are the only species to be able to control behaviour independantly, some choose to hunt for fun same as we are the only species to have sex for fun[/q]

This is just cows poo, excuse me.

Animals hunt for fun too, look at your kittycat - she ain't hungry, hence she goes off and brings back a few mice or birds - not really understanding why on earth you're unhappy with it and faithfully ignoring the fact... (yeah now you call it instinct again rolleyes )

What tells you that YOU are NOT following the very same instincs as birds and bees in your sexual behaviour?

Ever popped into your mind that it's EXACTLY what animals think? Hey, lets have some fun tonight!... in opposition to: Hey lets make some more kittycats!... one is just the result of the other.

But this is getting offtopic, no?


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