Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Today is Veteran's Day in the U.S.
A day when we are supposed to thank and contemplate the men and women who have given their lives to make our country what it is. (Don't get up in arms...keep reading)

And while most view it as a nusance because they can't do their banking or postage, and most kids see it as a day off I think it is important to stop and remember.

There are men and women who have died doing thier jobs to protect (or supposedly protect) our country.
While I do not understand their career choice, I do respect it.
While I do not support our government choices, I respect that our friends, our family members are simply doing thier jobs.
I also understand that without military we might all be ruled under Nazi regime, or Communist or..who knows. I understand that over the course of time the military has done some good.

And we don't have our government to thank for that, they sat in a cushy desk and signed papers while people like you and I followed through on it, with conviction and determination.

Hats off and heartfelt thanks go out to them..all of them.
Come home safely and soon, or rest in peace.

Which also brings me to another thought. I read the deathtoll for the "War on Terrorism" (bah!) well into the 2,000's range for the U.S.. Now this war allegedly started in retaliation to when 5,000 were killed in the 9/11 bombing. So, at which point does our government become no better than the "terrorists" to our own country (not talking about other countries)?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:and the actual death toll on 9/11 was much lower than 5,000 it turns out.... 2,000-something. Morbidity reports reflect this as do some other official doucments... I don't think we are any better...
And I remember how careful they were right afterwards to say they wouldn't harm innocent people in retaliation..... frown

However, I'm going to have to agree with what Pele said. I may not understand or agree, but for some people its a second chance at life. I do wish the government wouldn't send them off to do stupid thingstho.... but thats not the point.

I'm reminded of some song lyrics, but I won't quote them here as they're about ten kinds of controversial. I'm not in america today, but I will stop and think for a moment nonetheless.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:pele - that '2000' figure is the number of service men and women killed since the invasion of iraq (i believe).

those soldiers chose that life and they knew the risks that came with it.

whether you agree with the government's decision to send them there or not, your country did not kill any of them - they died in the service of their country which is a very different thing.

otherwise veterans day would be about blaming the government for all the soldiers they had 'killed' in the past.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I always have mixed feelings about Veterans Day. I get kind of paranoid, all the people pointing out how they defended their country against mine (while bombing civilians, too). Dunno... I respect everyone who stands up against a threat and risks their life, and I understand giving donations to look after the graves of soldiers. I wouldn't wear a poppy though, even though lots of people (imo) wear it as a fashion symbol like wrist bands now, and put it on for weeks before the actual day, especially on tv. Sunbird got told off because he works in a hotel and didn't have a poppy to show to everyone he cares about veterans...

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: Birgit

I always have mixed feelings about Veterans Day. I get kind of paranoid, all the people pointing out how they defended their country against mine



Well, I can honestly say that we haven't defended ourselves from your country (Scotland, yeah?) . wink

I disagree Coleman. I know several people who have been sent to Iraq, Iran, Cuba, Haiti...all these places with danger and every single one of them says they really did not know. You can't know until you are there. You don't know that people who are HIV+ will cut themselves and run towards you, trying to scratch you and fight you, so that you have to wear laytex outfits in tropical heat.
You don't know that a 14 yo girl with big innocent eyes will stare you down in the street, and then try to shoot you..so you shoot first, and then have to come home and face your younger sister of the same age.
Those are a couple of the things that happened to one of my friends. No, he did not sign up for that Coleman. I asked my friends. They signed up to defend this country against a *real* threat, not an imagined one. One was to get advanced training so he could follow his passion in technology. He's the one who had to go through therapy to look his younger sister in the eyes.

Next...I don't blame our government for getting involved in WWII. Didn't have to, but I think it was a good idea.
I *can* blame our government for sending our soldiers to Vietnam, where we had no place, or to Iraq for an oil based war of lies. I absolutely can because truthfully, it shouldn't be a military action at all for us.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Pele.. Im guessing the wink was there cos You know Birgit is from Germany.. right? confused
Either way, you are right, America defended itself from Japan.

smile


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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:I'll support the Military, I won't support their Commander in Chief though. wink

Also, Happy belated 230th Birthday United States Marine Corp.

USMC hoo RAH!


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:thanks for the reply pele.



do you just disagree with the statement "those soldiers chose that life and they knew the risks that came with it" or were you disagreeing with my whole post?



as far as i can see, if you sign up to the armed forces you:



1. relinquish your right to question the reasoning behind the orders you are given by your superiors and ultimately, the government of your country



2. agree that you are willing to die for your country if that situation occurs in the line of duty



that's what i meant when i said "they know the risks".



i honestly don't mean to be harsh but regarding the several people you know that were deployed in those terrible troublespots, wtf did they expect?!

the saying 'war is hell' wasn't plucked out of thin air.



vietnam warned that theatres such as these involve much more traumatic experiences than that created by men with knives and guns, including the other side using guerilla tactics that include deploying children.





as for not agreeing with the decision to go to war, i was not disputing your right to challenge your government's choices at all.

as for those in the armed forces however, they relinquish the right to question the decisions of their superiors and if they were concerned that they may be sent to fight a war that a large number of u.s. citizens don't agree with, they shouldn't have joined up - it happened with vietnam and it has happened many times since.





you originally asked "at which point does our government become no better than the "terrorists" to our own country".

unless your country starts sending civilians out to fight in iraq with no regard for their personal opinion then it is difficult to justify labelling the action in iraq as "terrorism against our own country".



my last post alluded to the fact that military casualties cannot be classed as terror victims because, by definition, if the target is military, then it is an act of war rather than an act of terrorism.





*big up the veterans of world war one and here's to hoping one day, we won't need any more soldiers*





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: UnbeatenChampionOfFighting


Pele.. Im guessing the wink was there cos You know Birgit is from Germany.. right? confused







The wink would be because of the Edinburgh location...yes. Last I checked Edinburgh is in Scotland.



And yes Cole, it was mostly the statement of "They chose this life and knew what they were getting into" as if they it is standard for children to have guns and people to try to infect you by cutting themselves and raking your eyes out. None of them knew these things. They knew their lives might, possibly be, one day in danger. But they didn't know they would have to shoot a child. You can't know until you are there.

When I was younger and more confuzzled I did look into going into the military. I even took the ASVAB and watched the videos. They are incredibly misleading, many of us think. If you watch the videos for the tech specialties, it makes it seem like you will never see battle.

However, I have also had a friend who was a Navy Seal and he had no misgivings. I also had a friend who was a member of a frontline bombadier unit. He was told his life expectancy during war time was 3.4secs. Luckily, he lived through Iran.



Some positions actually do get filled in. But when you are trained to do one thing, sent to do another and are really not filled in, then it should be questioned such as...

War may be hell but the rubber body suit with AIDS sufferers happened to my friend stationed in Cuba. Which goes back to us not really belonging in these other countries (though he said there was good fishing, lol). None of that was part of enlistment, and human have the right to free thought, even in the military. That is supposedly what they are defending...the American right of specified freedoms.



I read somewhere earlier that there are only 50 US survivors of WWI alive today, and 6 in Canada. Anyone else know how many are alive in their countries? I think that it is pretty incredible to live so long, yet alone through two world wars and all the crap since. I'd love to have a convo with them about how the world has changed, must be pretty overwhelming. My grammas barely remember WWI.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Sorry Pele... I am from Germany originally, I usually add it but sometimes I think most people in discussion forums know it by now and get a bit bored of it ubblol

My grandfather was killed in the last months of WW2, 2 days before his planned marriage (a very romantic war marriage via telephone, too) to my grandmother. I don't believe he was a worse man than the one who killed him, just because he was born on the wrong side of the war. My uncle's come back from being a PoW with a liver problem, which is now slowly killing him. My granduncle hasn't driven a car since being taken PoW, and noone knows what's happened to him.

We don't have veteran's day in Germany, for obvious reasons (our veterans are the nasty, horrible ex-Nazis, and we've not been allowed [for which I'm grateful] to actively take part in a war after that, at least not before George W Bush asked us to help out in Iraq). There's even people who think that those injured in the 2nd World War should not get any money from the state because they were fighting for the wrong cause. I see how some/a lot joined because they wanted to, I can assure you that lots did not.

So it does feel weird for me to have everyone celebrating the people who are responsible for things like the bombing of Dresden, or harming some of my family when they were prisoners.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy that Hitler got stopped. I just don't agree with the view that whatever happened to German soldiers and civilians doesn't matter because they were supporting him. I won't go into having the choice to support him or not, it's a difficult topic and those who haven't been there, including me, can't say how much choice there actually was.

I saw a book in a charity shop yesterday titled "the only good German" (... is a dead German). People don't seem to mind saying these things.

Here's an article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1160568,00.html
br>It quotes Churchill after the bombing of Dresden, after he'd commanded to lay terror on Germany (apparently he's "invented" terrorism):

... the question of bombing German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror ... should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land (...) I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives ... rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive.

I'm glad he was impressed but decided to leave some of Germany intact for him to control, but I refuse to honour this and the people who did it by wearing a poppy, just like I'd refuse to wear one for German soldiers.

Hope this makes a bit more sense.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Thanks for that birgit....

my father's family is from germany and they fought in the 2nd world war there as well. i don't know how much of a choice it was or wasn't, but i do know they suffered very badly after the war (even the civilians) because of things the americans did to them.. a nd then they moved to america, if you can't beat them join them?

but even tho they fought for a crap army i don't think that excuses what was done to them any more than americans fighting in iraq *nesc* deserve to be hated.....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Celebrating wars is a bit daft in itself, but I'm not sure people are celebrating... most of the time they seem to be saying "I hope this never happens again" or something.

Frankly, I don't wear a poppy because I don't care shrug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Kyri, my mum's family was going to move to Argentina because they thought Germany would never recover... some distant relatives of mine still live there. Then someone got sick and they couldn't get on the boat, and now they're just really happy they stayed ubblol

I don't believe in hate though - I suppose I might hate someone I'd seen doing something to my family or children if I ever have any, but so far I don't hate anyone. I pity people, I'm disgusted at what some do, I'm angry at others.

Sethis, I don't think people are actually celebrating the wars, but surely those that were in them. And while most actually do hope there won't be more wars, there is this smug feeling of self-righteousness about winning the wars, and defending the world from evil (and from some countries keeping their oil to themselves), and I just don't agree with some of the methods that were employed.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Fair enough. "2 world wars and one world cup" etc etc. Pisses me off too. I got called a Nazi at one point because I wore a german military surplus jacket with the German flag on it. Not the swastika, the German flag.

People should really stop making such a big deal about it.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:AND THAT 1966 THING WASN'T EVEN A GOAL BECAUSE THE BALL NEVER CROSSED THE LINE ubblol

(sorry... couldn't resist ubblol)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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loki.c1687
loki.c1687

addict
Location: Leeds
Member Since: 13th Jul 2004
Total posts: 546
Posted:
They knew their lives might, possibly be, one day in danger.

pele im sorry but you wrong your freinds did chosse this life and they knew they would go to war or fight...name one generation of human history that has not had a war?ww1 15-16 kids fought in that war same with ww2..its nice too stay i'll fight for my country as long as they dont go to war or put me in danger...its war people die and not in very nice ways.You can say they make children fight.But what about the US soilders who swap picture's of dead people for free porn access.If you were a little girl and you had the means to kill the people who attack your family your freinds with very little inderpentant news to tell you what is rlly happening. there is always two side to war pele and a evil man never think of himself as evil
mike.c


Rules and responsibities:
These are the ties that bind us.
We do what we do,because of who we are.
If we did otherwise,we would not be ourselves.
I will do what i have to do
And i will do what i must..

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I can understand how young people, who want to see things the way the army tells them things are, do not inform themselves about the risks involved. But that's a mistake. It may have been impossible in wars past, with no information technology to speak of, where you'd arrive at the WW1 trench and be surrounded by a gas noone had heard of, but it's not that difficult anymore.

War is war, people will try to kill you. If Third World countries respond to superior technology by using children or HIV positive people, that's horrible, but from their point of view they're fighting someone who will kill them if they don't do it first, with weapons they can't fight, or who will imprison them in camps with human rights comparable to the ones in their countries. Or, if they're totalitarian governments trying to oppose peace missions, they will kill you so that you don't interfere with their business. It's terrible, but it's something you should be well aware of when you sign up for a war.

In Europe, reports about children soldiers are standard in the news, and have been for as long as I can remember. I'm sure it must be possible to find out about them before fighting in their country.

If you commit yourself to an organisation that puts your life at risk, inform yourself, or don't join. And as to "simply doing their jobs", I think I've heard that argument before...

Having said that, I do respect everyone who goes to defend a country or human rights, and who risks their life trying to save others'. I can't imagine what a war is like, and even if I try, I'm sure the reality would overwhelm me, so I guess to some extent no matter how much information you have in advance the reality will always surprise you and possibly be too much to take.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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squarexbear
squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK
Member Since: 17th Apr 2005
Total posts: 585
Posted:We've gone from celebrating the lives of defenders (WWI, WWII) to aggressors (do i have to give examples?) which i find quite hard to swallow.

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Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:Written by:

pele im sorry but you wrong your freinds did chosse this life and they knew they would go to war or fight



Something else to consider is that the bulk of US forces deployed overseas are not career soldiers, they are reservists. It is the understanding that reservists are held "in reserve." They're primary purpose is not invasion or occupation. It is to defend the borders and assist local and state agencies in time of emergency or civil unrest. The people who purposefully go through boot camp for 3 months and expect and train to fight are the ones who ought to be in combat.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:And one more thing to NOT thank veterans for:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1669544,00.html
br>


Seems like, instead of learning what NOT to do from the war, Britain had picked up on how to torture people effectively... Well done, and maybe if Rumsfeld hears about this he may be able to incorporate the new knowledge in some of his prisons, too frown



(Sorry. *Very* upset about this article, and as glad that the Guardian dragged it out of the archives.)

EDITED_BY: Birgit (1134946169)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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