TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:So it seems to me that a lot of people believe in Cause and Effect but dismiss Effect and Cause (where the effect happens before whatever caused it)...

Now i've always been a believer in effect and cause but would be very interested to hear what people think about it all.

I'd like to learn about;

That experiment where you have a laser going through 2 slits (mike psi was telling me about it on the way to ejc last year but it's very hard to grasp)

quantum computer weirdness

and interesting concepts about Time (or bizarre Time related experiences you've had with poi)

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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arashi
arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 2363
Posted:this link will keep you busy for months. i go here when i get the time and inclination. there's real physicicts that will answer your questions if they are reasonalbly thought out. there's one guy who will blow you off if you ask stupid questions but everyone else is nice.
quantum physics tribe

of special note in this one is the comment, insightful and wise, by myself rolleyes this thread will blow your mind for a while.define time

this new thread looks like it has some juciy links, haven't followed them yet standind wave hteory of matter


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Sniper
Sniper

Snoochie-boochie-noochies!

Member Since: 24th Jan 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:nice one arashi. should fill the void before my netpro course materials arrive

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:god, people should have been, like me, in school (and when i say school I mean it, not university) and read all that [censored] then. yadda yadda wave / particle duality blah blah blah wave/particle collapse, rhubarb rhubarb, entangled quantum states, boring boring, watched pot never boils la la la. Woo hoo, and then you get to macro states and it has no effect! Booyah!

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Damn meg, you missed your calling.

You should have been a physics teacher biggrin


Non-Https Image Link


And just cos it's appropriate:


Non-Https Image Link


Getting to the other side smile

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:Science is too easy, it's just an algorithm.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:mmm gstring theory.

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:hey matt id suggest reading

The Quantum Brain: The Search for Freedom and the Next Generation of Man by Jeffrey Satinover

i found it was an excellent read one of the most challenging books ive read, it explains quantum weirdness quite well (in a brain twisting kind of way)


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Seye
Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK
Member Since: 27th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1261
Posted:There is no such thing as 'cause' AND 'effect'. Just a long series of 'effects' OR 'causes'.



ie -

effect (which causes) effect (which causes) effect ...

OR

cause (which was caused by) cause (which was caused by)...



Infinate patterns of essentially the same thing happening.


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by: mcp_orange

Science is too easy, it's just an algorithm.



ubblove

wait, i'm trying to go back into science.... tongue

But I still find this HILARIOUS. biggrin *is happy*


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:For the two slit experiment it appears that photon act like both waves and particles which means that a single photon is able to interfere with itself. Apparently it's just the way nature works. Don't ask me to explain it any further cos it scares me.

A lot of people make some very wild claims about quantum dynamics (my signiture is an example of over-extending some of the metaphores used to explain quantum dynamics). All I know for sure is that you really can't say anything but the most basic things about it unless you've spent half your life studying it so there are a lot of crap book on the subject written by people who have no idea about the subject. Personally I have only a working knowledge of it but I do recognise the 'bull-s**ters' if I see them.

I'm not really sure what you mean by effect then cause. We are told by the quantum physicists that the timing of a nuclear fission event is random, as is the formation of particle/anti-particle pairs. I'm not sure but that might be an example of effect without cause (any quantum physicists in the crowd?). With the exception of thermal dynamics most equations in physics work perfectly well if you regard the causes as effects and visa versa and time running backwards (again I might have it totally wrong since I'm well out of my leage here) but I suspect that that is not what you are refering too.

Could you explain this effect and cause more throughally and your reasoning and evidence for it please?


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Moka
Moka

is a medium/large scary man
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Mi...
Member Since: 31st Jul 2005
Total posts: 420
Posted:Written by: Seye

There is no such thing as 'cause' AND 'effect'. Just a long series of 'effects' OR 'causes'.

ie -
effect (which causes) effect (which causes) effect ...
OR
cause (which was caused by) cause (which was caused by)...

Infinate patterns of essentially the same thing happening.



Too bloody confusing!!! lol confused confused confused
I'll stick to the physics I know... The physics of a staff or poi twirling... weavesmiley


Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.

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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted:Written by: spherculist

So it seems to me that a lot of people believe in Cause and Effect but dismiss Effect and Cause (where the effect happens before whatever caused it)...

Now i've always been a believer in effect and cause but would be very interested to hear what people think about it all.

I'd like to learn about;

That experiment where you have a laser going through 2 slits (mike psi was telling me about it on the way to ejc last year but it's very hard to grasp)

quantum computer weirdness

and interesting concepts about Time (or bizarre Time related experiences you've had with poi)

m



i've not seen anything exceptional from the QP tribe. haha. lots of bickering then devolving to philosophy. i've seen word of the double slit temporal laser experiment you're talking about here. that only affects relative time though between two bodies (the two slits), and can't cause say one slit to activate before the laser is turned on ever, just earlier than the other slit. the very definition of "happening" is that it occurs in the direction of entropy. i believe very muchly in a bi-directional 4th dimension on the quantum scale, but building that up evokes layers and layers of entropy that are all lossy (as in JPEG/lossy compression) and impossible to perceptually penetrate.

Once you get up to our scale level, it all becomes semantics on whether you want to call the first temporal one the cause or the effect. but on the general notion that effects couldn't happen without all their conditional causes being in place, i agree with you. looking at events this way and putting yourself where you need to be at the right times for different goals to materialize in the future is a helpful life planning tool. if you figure out any way to use this knowledge to win the lottery, i pre-accept a 10% cut at least for my contribution. biggrin

poi in general (and this is philosophy), i see as an untangling of the 5th dimension (spin) through the small hole provided by the 4th (while avoiding ugly tangles in the 3rd). It feels like taking a balloon and squeezing it through the gap under a door. or maybe a fouton instead of a balloon sometimes. haha.

-- dut


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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Embrace the horror

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:Horror duly embraced, and a new website saved to favourites, thanks

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:matt - look up 'pauli's exclusion principle' and the 'epr experiment'.
then think how this could be applied to computing smile

the double slit experiment is not an example of 'effect and cause'.

i'm personally not aware of any situation that could be described as 'effect and cause'.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:ditto

It's hard to be contary when noone has any idea what is being discussed wink


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Dut
lurker
Location: Nashville, TN
Member Since: 22nd Mar 2002
Total posts: 380
Posted:coleman, not that experiment. people were saying the Ashfar Experiment of July 2004 corroborated the Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (killing off support of the Copenhagen Interpretation). I think it's been argued pretty successfully that it still doesn't "prove" anything, which is kind of how I see QM staying for quite a while. but yeah, i think in general "Transactional Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics" is what he's trying to discuss, if you want to google up and prepare to get contrary, but I could be wrong. biggrin

-- dut


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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Transaction Interpratation

Afshar Experiment

Apparently you are right and there is strong disagreement that the Afshar experiment disproves the Principle of Complementarity

From what I can tell the Transactional Interpatation seems to be consistant but it is unpopular and seems to have attracted a large number of people from the lunatic fringe.

However I don't think that this interpratation is what Spherculist was hinting at. I think he meant something of a supernatural nature, but it's hard to tell from his original post.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:
[t-jack]
Someone had a theory of everything based on available evidence 10,000 years ago, and again after that, and after that and after that and numerous other times until the present day. All of them have successfully "proved" their theories, until the next one arrives....I wonder how we'll "think we know" in another 10,000 years or so?!

[/t-jack]


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Dunc

[t-jack]
Someone had a theory of everything based on available evidence 10,000 years ago, and again after that, and after that and after that and numerous other times until the present day. All of them have successfully "proved" their theories, until the next one arrives....I wonder how we'll "think we know" in another 10,000 years or so?!
[/t-jack]


It's called progress. If we thought we were perfectly right already why is so much effort being put into testing the theories, the evidence and anything else we can think of? We might still be about 10 000 years away from being perfectly right but I think we are making a pretty good stab at the truth. Newtons laws aren't right but unless you're sub-atomic or traveling near light speed they are very close to perfect. And the stuff we knew 10 000 years ago wasn't all wrong either. Mabey eclipses weren't caused by a giant monster but they managed to domesticate wheat which is fairly impressive.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:Written by: Jeff
It's called progress



Or do we only think it is wink


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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