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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht...5/ixportal.html
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That's why I don't support home education. And children stars. And why people who brand their cattle with swastikas are allowed to home-educate their children and make them into a girl band. And that they send them to perform in front of crowds from the age of 8 or 9, making them think they're doing something good. And (looked at some other articles about them) how they now have a weblog for the third, smallest, child ("Dresden"), telling about her life in a good white family.

And don't even mention "freedom of speech", I know it exists but this is wrong.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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squarexbear
squarexbear

....of doom!
Location: Hastings, UK
Member Since: 17th Apr 2005
Total posts: 585
Posted:although people like these girls, their parents and audience make me sick, it is (as has been pointed out already) their right to believe this stuff. even if the sane world is looking at them with open-mouthed disbelief.

I do think that in this case homeschooling was definitely to blame for indoctrination into such vile beliefs. But at the same time, who's to say that they wouldn't have learnt similar views attending their local school?
at both schools i attended 11 - 18 hatred - homophobia, racism etc were present. because i was brought up to ignore opinions such as these i was immune to most of it but even i, at times, found myself expressing opinions that were..wrong. i will say that i caught myself doing it, had swift and stern words and stopped it in its tracks.
however, some people aren't brought up to believe in equality and wouldn't have checked themselves. so the girls could have ended up with similar beliefs whatever their schooling.

i do think behaviour is learned equally from elders and peers. although my teachers would never have expressed a racist opinion in class (sadly i can't say the same about being homophobic) racism still existed among the pupils.

i always finish writing this kind of thing and realise that i really havent made the point i meant to. but i think at least half of you will get it. kind of. maybe.


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alien_oddity
alien_oddity

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Posted:"The twins recently came under fire for stipulating that money they donated to the victims of Hurricane Katrina should go to whites only."



oh my word...........only in america. what they dont tell you is they prolly live on a trailer park and their father is really their brother or something equilly incestious.

what makes me angry is that in this day and age when we know full well we are all essentially the same that just because of skin colour or belief that some one is a lesser person


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Dave, yes, my example was one extreme one, but so was the picture you posted. And as thumperabbit says, bullies are everywhere. People get randomly attacked, get beaten up because they wear the wrong clothes or are with people of the wrong skin colour, even if the bullies don't know them. Schools just show that these tendencies are in the population and of course they culminate where lots of children meet.

I can see why some parents may want to keep their kids away from state schools, especially in some areas. But you can't hide kids away from the world.

To follow some of your points consequently in order to get the best for your children would mean that all parents who could afford it and who have the time would home-educate their kids or send them to public schools with better equipment and student numbers. That means only those from uneducated families or with single / two working parents or from poor families, or those whose parents can't home-educate them because their knowledge of English isn't sufficient, would go to normal schools. It would worsen the current situation immensely, and kids with no alternative but state schools would definitely have 2nd or 3rd class education.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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onewheeldave
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Posted:I'm seeing on this thread a lot of out-and-out prejudice against home tutor-ing, with very little rational back-up- I'm genuinely bemused that some people seem so aggressively against it with no apparent good reason.



I've tried to show that the majority of the 'arguments' against home tutoring are invalid as they apply equally to traditional schooling, and then you simply post another one-



ie even if it was easier for well-off parents to home tutor their children, it makes no difference to the current situation where well-off parents can buy a better education (put them in a good school) for their children.



As for bullying happening everywhere, yes, that's true; the unique thing about school is that you're forced to go to the same place everyday, with the same people and the same social hierachys.



IMO, the people here who don't seem to understanding why some need a home-tutoring aption to escape from bullying, are basically people who have not been bullied.



And there, by 'bullied' I'm talking about full on, long term bullying- the stuff that drives children to such helpless despair, that they take their own lives rather than go to school.



I reckon most people here have personally experienced some bullying, but generally they overcome it, or it stops- don't make the mistake of thinking that you understand what it's like for the people mentioned above, for whom it doesn't stop, and who do not overcome it.



I'll say again- home-tutoring does have some negatives- it can be abused: but exactly the same can be said of schooling.



If people want to critises home-tutoring, could they do so through arguments that apply exclusivly to home-tutoring, as opposed to arguments that apply to both home-tutoring and schools?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Dave, I'm getting a bit tired of this. Me and others have pointed out that yes, for some people home tutoring does work, but there is less control on it than on "school schooling" and this can have dangerous effects, especially on freedom of choice of way of living and belief on the part of the children.

You've started by arguing I blamed home schooling exclusively for what this thread was about in the first place, and you've gone on in a similar fashion. It's hard to have a discussion with you, because unless I point out in every place "I don't mean 100% of cases but..." or "not exclusively but" you'll jump in there.

Please accept that the people here DO understand that for some kids, home schooling seems to be the only alternative, but the whole bullying thing was never in it in the first place. We were talking about parents home schooling because they wanted their kids raised from a certain religious or political point of view. Thumperabbit jumped in and said home schooling worked well for him, and we accepted that. Indeed, we were even willing to learn exactly what it had been like for him.

In the western world, racist views like these are generally not taught in schools and if they are, you can go and complain and get the teacher fired. There you go. And argument like the ones you've asked for, and it was obviously implied in more than one post here.

IMO, the thread should probably not have slipped so far into the home schooling thing in the first place, and it's probably my fault for the way I phrased the first post that it did. I learned some interesting points of view, so I don't regret it, but please accept that the points we raise are valid to us. What may be no apparent good reason may also be a very good reason for some of us.

For example, as you said, most kids do overcome bullying. So did I, and it was an important experience. I'd trust in most parents to pull the necessary lines when they see their kid really suffers, and those who don't probably aren't fit for home schooling in the first place. But if the kid is pulled out of school before it even happens, or at a level where it would be an essential learning experience to overcome it, it harms more than it helps. I wouldn't pull my kid out of school and leave it unable to defend itself in social situations later.

This is the last I'll say, you've ignored all the concessions people who oppose home schooling made to those who approve it and say people may need it and made it sound like we all argue unnecessary points, and as I said, I'm getting a bit tired of it. I don't think you understood my last post at all by the way you interpreted it. shrug


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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linden rathen
linden rathen

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Location: London, UK
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Total posts: 6942
Posted:i just feel REALLY sorry for these guys

the other prussian blue


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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

I'm seeing on this thread a lot of out-and-out prejudice against home tutor-ing, with very little rational back-up- I'm genuinely bemused that some people seem so aggressively against it with no apparent good reason.




You want to quote someone here? I've just looked over the thread, and can't find anything I would call "Prejudicial" or "Irrational". Most people simply seem to think that the cons outweigh the pros in terms of Home Schooling.

Written by: OneWheelDave

IMO, the people here who don't seem to understanding why some need a home-tutoring aption to escape from bullying, are basically people who have not been bullied.

And there, by 'bullied' I'm talking about full on, long term bullying- the stuff that drives children to such helpless despair, that they take their own lives rather than go to school.




Wrong. Dead Wrong. Sorry. shrug


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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linden rathen
linden rathen

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Posted:home tutoring - can be good can be bad
state system - can be good can be bad

bigotry - will bring people together as they rip others apart

but most humans are too lazy to be truely bigoted

it takes a lot of energy to really hate someone

a lot of bigots act of fear and social conditioning

anyway im off to eat and do my homework


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: Birgit


Dave, I'm getting a bit tired of this. Me and others have pointed out that yes, for some people home tutoring does work, but there is less control on it than on "school schooling" and this can have dangerous effects, especially on freedom of choice of way of living and belief on the part of the children.



You've started by arguing I blamed home schooling exclusively for what this thread was about in the first place, and you've gone on in a similar fashion. It's hard to have a discussion with you, because unless I point out in every place "I don't mean 100% of cases but..." or "not exclusively but" you'll jump in there.



Please accept that the people here DO understand that for some kids, home schooling seems to be the only alternative, but the whole bullying thing was never in it in the first place. We were talking about parents home schooling because they wanted their kids raised from a certain religious or political point of view. Thumperabbit jumped in and said home schooling worked well for him, and we accepted that. Indeed, we were even willing to learn exactly what it had been like for him.



In the western world, racist views like these are generally not taught in schools and if they are, you can go and complain and get the teacher fired. There you go. And argument like the ones you've asked for, and it was obviously implied in more than one post here.



IMO, the thread should probably not have slipped so far into the home schooling thing in the first place, and it's probably my fault for the way I phrased the first post that it did. I learned some interesting points of view, so I don't regret it, but please accept that the points we raise are valid to us. What may be no apparent good reason may also be a very good reason for some of us.



For example, as you said, most kids do overcome bullying. So did I, and it was an important experience. I'd trust in most parents to pull the necessary lines when they see their kid really suffers, and those who don't probably aren't fit for home schooling in the first place. But if the kid is pulled out of school before it even happens, or at a level where it would be an essential learning experience to overcome it, it harms more than it helps. I wouldn't pull my kid out of school and leave it unable to defend itself in social situations later.



This is the last I'll say, you've ignored all the concessions people who oppose home schooling made to those who approve it and say people may need it and made it sound like we all argue unnecessary points, and as I said, I'm getting a bit tired of it. I don't think you understood my last post at all by the way you interpreted it. shrug





Sorry that you're finding it annoying Birgit.



People understand things in different ways, personally, if arguing against a point of view I disagree with, I find it best to look for underlying logical flaws in the reasonin g, because-



a if the underlying logic is wrong, the whole thing is wrong



b I personally need to keep things simple to understand them



Multiple people have on this thread, posted critisisms of home tutoring that apply to all current forms of education, including schools- as such they are invalid arguments when applied to home tutoring.



Your last post seemed very much to contain a further such point, so I posted my point of view, which is that it was as invalid as all the rest.



I'm really sorry if this approach annoys you, its not meant to, its just the way I tackle these things.



I've posted defences of home tutoring only because some posts here have been extremely critical of it- I appreciate the points you make, but, IMO, some of the posts on this thread have been extremely prejudiced against home-tutoring.



As you say, perhaps it's best to leave it now, pretty much everything has been said I think, and, on the subject of home tutoring, I guess we'll just have to disagree.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:Written by: linden rathen

i just feel REALLY sorry for these guys

the other prussian blue



do you think they know?

should we tell them?


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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roarfire
roarfire

comfortably numb
Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2676
Posted:I know that this thread has gone on to talk about home schooling, but back to the band for a minute. I researched and found some lyrics to one of their songs.



Aryan Man Awake

(by Lamb and April)



When the man who plows the fields is driven from his lands. When the carpenter must give away what he's built with his own hands. When a mother's only children belong to her no more. And black masked men with guns come bashing down the doors. Where freedom exists for only those with darker skin. Where lies and propaganda will never let you win. Where symbols of your heritage are held with such contempt, and benefits of country 'cept tax are you exempt.



Aryan man awake, How much more will you take, Turn that fear to hate, Aryan man awake.



Can you see how they lie to warp your daughter's minds? Can you let your sons be trodden down or held behind? Can you apologize for things you did not do, and leave this battle that we fight to the proud and the few? What will it take for you to waken to the truth? What will it take for you to remember your own youth? What will you give up to help this worthy Cause, and strike with force and fury, without a single pause?



What will it take for you to remember your own folk? What will it take for you to break that heavy yoke? Why do you still cast your eyes downward to the ground? Worry lest what you say have prejudicial sound. Who will stand beside us when the war begins? Who will run and hide their heads and wait to see who wins? Who will face the end and watch a Valkyrie ride forth To join the gods and fallen stormtroopers of the North?



angry


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

Sorry that you're finding it annoying Birgit.

(...)

I appreciate the points you make, but, IMO, some of the posts on this thread have been extremely prejudiced against home-tutoring.

As you say, perhaps it's best to leave it now, pretty much everything has been said I think, and, on the subject of home tutoring, I guess we'll just have to disagree.



Agreed smile

Don't worry, am much more relaxed now, yesterday was before a performance and the organisation had been a bit rough, so I was pretty much stressed out.

It's just that... I think you should try and get across the appreciation of points a bit more, cause I didn't get the impression you appreciated any of them. You're quite good at arguing your points, and I think people often feel a bit run over by you, and the way you dismiss arguments can come across quite blunt. If that makes any sense.

shrug

I think we should definitely tell the British Prussian Blue, though with all the media attention the girls got the last week they'll probably now by now.

My (NOT) favourite quote from the girls was something along the lines of: "yes, there were concentration camps, but they had swimming pools and tennis courts. You wouldn't build places like that for people you want to kill, would you?"
Maybe they should leave America and go to the old camps and look for the 5 star hotels, too...


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: Birgit


Don't worry, am much more relaxed now, yesterday was before a performance and the organisation had been a bit rough, so I was pretty much stressed out.

It's just that... I think you should try and get across the appreciation of points a bit more, cause I didn't get the impression you appreciated any of them. You're quite good at arguing your points, and I think people often feel a bit run over by you, and the way you dismiss arguments can come across quite blunt. If that makes any sense.




That's useful feedback, I do post in quite a focused, consise way, and do wonder if that's sometimes seen as 'blunt'.

One thing I would say is that, due to the fact that I do see arguments in terms of their underlying logical structure, when, as often happens here, the same flawed reasoning is endlessly re-presented in different forms, I find it quite painful..

Generally, I only start to post with extreme focus/consiseness ('bluntness') when the same bad argument is repeated over-and-over again, and when someone's already pointed out why that argument is flawed.

This is because, for me, writing replies takes time- it takes time to present my view in a way which is clear, and also to write it in such a way that it doesn't 'push peoples buttons' and lead to hostility; if I put time into a reply, then someone else just brings up the same point in a different form, I'm going to start getting more consise in my reply, and then it starts to look 'blunt'.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I think it's impossible to find a way of discussion that will suit everyone, so it's just natural that sometimes ways of stating one's point or defending one's opinion clash, and obviously, sometimes someone will feel that their buttons have been pushed smile Especially in a place like HoP with members of so many different backgrounds.

Anyways, thanks for explaining that, I'm looking forward to arguing with you much more now ubblol

hug


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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UCOF
UCOF

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Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
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Posted:"fallen stormtroopers of the North?"

Starwars? confused


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Sethis
Sethis

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Location: York University
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Posted:Nazi Germany elite soldiers were called Stormtroopers. It's where the title actually came from. smile

That said... I thought SW first as well wink


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: lyrics-Aryan Man Awake
(by Lamb and April)


When the man who plows the fields is driven from his lands. When the carpenter must give away what he's built with his own hands. When a mother's only children belong to her no more. And black masked men with guns come bashing down the doors. Where freedom exists for only those with darker skin. Where lies and propaganda will never let you win. Where symbols of your heritage are held with such contempt, and benefits of country 'cept tax are you exempt.

Aryan man awake, How much more will you take, Turn that fear to hate, Aryan man awake.

Can you see how they lie to warp your daughter's minds? Can you let your sons be trodden down or held behind? Can you apologize for things you did not do, and leave this battle that we fight to the proud and the few? What will it take for you to waken to the truth? What will it take for you to remember your own youth? What will you give up to help this worthy Cause, and strike with force and fury, without a single pause?

What will it take for you to remember your own folk? What will it take for you to break that heavy yoke? Why do you still cast your eyes downward to the ground? Worry lest what you say have prejudicial sound. Who will stand beside us when the war begins? Who will run and hide their heads and wait to see who wins? Who will face the end and watch a Valkyrie ride forth To join the gods and fallen stormtroopers of the North?





Those are interesting lyrics and give a valuable insight into the minds of many who follow these beliefs.

I mentioned earlier that , IMO, you can point to a distinction between those racist beliefs based on hate and prejudice, and those based on reason (whether faulty reason or not).

IMO, the dodgiest bit is-

Written by:

Turn that fear to hate, Aryan man awake.




As it is, pretty much, incitement to hate.

Written by:

What will it take for you to remember your own folk? What will it take for you to break that heavy yoke? Why do you still cast your eyes downward to the ground? Worry lest what you say have prejudicial sound....

.....Where symbols of your heritage are held with such contempt
.



This seems to be about the situation mentioned earlier, where those who wish to celebrate white culture, are condemned by society as racist. This is, IMO, one of the danger points because it does actually make sense, and can be one of the gateways into adopting racist beliefs for people who are basically rational.

Arguably, they're also right, it does seem that some white cultures are being left to rot, while non-white cultures are given funding to improve their lot, relaxed selection criteria in job apps etc

Written by:

And black masked men with guns come bashing down the doors..........................and benefits of country 'cept tax are you exempt.




These are very much the views of many US 'Survivalist' groups, who seen the government and tax system as being oppressive and anti-liberty.

From what I've seen of them, they do see to attract a lot of racists. I guess part of it is that both groups tend to be into 'taking action', generally involving building up stores of firearms.


Written by:


Who will face the end and watch a Valkyrie ride forth To join the gods and fallen stormtroopers of the North?




Many groups with race beliefs like this tend to acknowledge respect to Hitler etc, partly because Germany at that time did, initially, seem to be coming close to achieving the world ideal that they aspire to.

But, in this case, from following some of the links from the 'Prussian Blue' website, I did get the impression that the family is also actually of Germanic descent.

For anyone interested in a film that covers some of these issues, I can highly recommend 'American History X', starring Edward Norton, which explores some of the ways a highly intelligent individual, due to life circumstances and exposure to clever reasoning, can become a hate-filled racist.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:About the symbols of heritage... I'm not quite sure what they mean. Runes are not only german heritage, they've been used in other cultures, and their use is allowed in most countries. Germany tends to be quite unhappy about the "sigil" rune (the stormtroupers one that kiss use on their logo). The swastika is forbidden in Germany, but again, the same symbol (but a mirror image) has been used in most cultures, originally representing the sun. It was only turned around for the party symbol purposes, so it's not German heritage. If you use it, it IS because you show your support for a certain ideology.

I agree with Dave's view about lacking support for poor white families, it's unfortunately true... it's one reason why the US Army gets so many recruits, by offering good money to the poor.

I read another interview with the mother recently, and she said something like "we had to be very careful with the way we phrase things - we had to remove all nazi references because we want to be able to sell in Germany and they're so careful about these things". If I had the impression that they used all the valkyrie references etc because they actually believe in Odin, Thor and the lot, I wouldn't mind, but the happy hitler t-shirts, holocaust denial and other things indicate a different motivation.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: Birgit


The swastika is forbidden in Germany, but again, the same symbol (but a mirror image) has been used in most cultures, originally representing the sun. It was only turned around for the party symbol purposes, so it's not German heritage. If you use it, it IS because you show your support for a certain ideology.





There was a big thread on swastica issues on HOP, it's here-



http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...ll/fpart/1/vc/1


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:American History X is great. I'd recommend it as a film, as a piece of art, in addition to the fact that it takes a great look at those issues.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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MiG
MiG

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Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:i'm sorry, but who calls their kid lamb?

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted:Written by: Birgit

About the symbols of heritage... I'm not quite sure what they mean.



I'm pretty sure he's talking about the confederate battle flag, which in the United States can symbolize a number of things such as....

State's rights.
Honoring ancestors who fought and died in battle.
Love of the South/Southern values (hospitality, etc.)
White supremacy.

Oh, and MiG.... it makes just as much sense to call a child a lamb as it does to call them a kid. The offspring of both sheep and goats are cute, poop everywhere, and make loud noises when you pinch them.


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MiG
MiG

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Posted:no, not sure much say 'look at all the kids running around', but actully having their first name as lamb.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:still better than their mini-sister "Dresden"... though it's not, as a big British newspaper explained it, the name of a city destroyed by the nazis rolleyes

So in addition to all the crap that's actually going on there, you have to figure out when the newspapers actually get the facts right...


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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KatP
KatP

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Posted:As a teacher in the school system, a number of the more forceful and ill-justified opinions in this thread have thoroughly annoyed me, but I don't think this is the time or place for that discussion.

One point however I will address

Written by: onewheeldave


Children are individual beings, with rights, who should not be forced to endure the intimidation and violence that is rampant in UK schools; no adult would have to put up with this at their place of work, yet we let it happen to children at schools.




Really? Go and put that to a number of TEACHERS in school who are forced to deal with children shouthing at them, threatening them, giving verbal and sometimes even physical abuse. Teachers have been threatened with knives in british schools, not just pupils. These ARE adults, who ARE at their place of work, and have to return to that place of work and deal with that pupil on a daily basis. In britich schools pupils have far more rights and powers than teachers.

This is not an easy job. We don't get to choose who or what we teach. We have to deal with high levels of stress on a daily basis. We are (in the vast majority) more than aware that the futures of children depend on how we do our jobs.

I am the first to admit that not all teachers are great, not all subjects will be interesting to every pupil, and not all pupils are suited to mainstream education. But a lot of the problems in schools are caused by pupils, not teachers, who don't want to listen, don't want to try and don't want to learn and perpetually disrupt classes.

I'm now going to go and eat my lunch, while working on extra material for some of my fourth year pupils who do want to take advantage of the extra tuition being offered to them outwith normal classes and try to forget about this tirade against the education system.

Birgit, your original post was indeed rather scary. I'm sorry it seems to have degenerated into some sort of slanging match.


Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

KITTENS!!!!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:KatP- I agree, teachers are adults who are subject to harrassment and abuse at work. it was indeed an ommision on my part.



My point was that, generally, most adults do not have to put up with the kind of bullying that is rife amongst school children- certainly if, in the work place, an adult is a bully, there are procedures, and bullying is considered unnaceptable.



Teachers are abused by pupils, and it's not right.



But imagine how a teacher would feel if another adult teacher, or group of adult teachers, pushed you up against a wall and demanded money off you; and that it happened day, after day, after day. I think you'll agree that that would be considered an outrage, and totally unnacceptable, yet that (and worse) is what some children face on a daily basis.



None of my posts in this thread have been intended to critisise teachers (and I'd go further and say that re-reading my posts will show that I have not at any point critisised teaching staff).



I worked in a school for a year, and it was a rough school, and I saw how harsh it can be for teachers- it's certainly not a job I'd want to do in the current climate.



My posts were meant purely to defend home tuition against what I saw as unjustified dismissal and critisism.



I indeed say that, for some young people, schools can be hell, but I think it was clear that I blamed not the teachers, but the bullies, and the aspects of the education system that let it continue. I also critisised aspects of the curriculum.



I think you'll agree that many teachers themselves would like to see bullying and abusive children dealt with more effectively, and perhaps an overall of the curriculum.



Sorry that my post has angered you; I hope that I've claryified my opinion for you.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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brodieman
brodieman

old hand
Location: london
Member Since: 11th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1024
Posted:Um, i have mixed views about home schooling, im sure many peopel are educated at home do really well there are some major bonus points ie 1 on 1 teaching rocks.
However i have met children who are home schooled find it very hard to socialise with other children, home schooling is regulated but what you have to remember it means all your classes are taught by one person from one perspective with no input from other people(class mates and teachers)

But these are just theorys, but i do think some good longditudeational (bad spelling) study does have to take place,

For example 2-5 years old learn many of their social and interation skills around this age theirfore is it a good idea to cut them off from their peers?....... i think it called the zones of proxomal devlopment (Piaget?) sorry im a little rusty on my child devlopment


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: brodieman

However i have met children who are home schooled find it very hard to socialise with other children



Written by: onewheeldave

However i have met children who are traditionaly schooled find it very hard to socialise with other children


smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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KatP
KatP

Muddy fingernails
Location: Way oop norf
Member Since: 15th Jan 2005
Total posts: 505
Posted:Again, this is considerably off the original topic of this thread, but here we go.

There are also procedures in place in school to deal with bullying. Every school must, by law, have a bullying procedure set out and make all students and staff aware of the procedure.

Unfortunately it, like any procedure involving adult workers, relies on someone being informed about the bullying taking place. In schools, and in other workplaces, the victim of bullying does not always have the confidence to do this. This problem is not limited to children in schools, I know a number of adults who have felt victimised at their workplace, but have felt unable to do anything about it. I was bullied myself at school, both verbally and physically. The support mechanisms were there 20 years ago, I just didn't have the self confidence to tell anyone about it, so I was miserable. This is not the fault of the school, or the authority, or my parents, or even me - despite my not having done anything about it. Yes bullying can be devastating, but those in authority can only take action if they are made aware of the situation.

I can't speak for other schools, but certainly in our school we take bullying very seriously, and any incidents which even might be labelled as bullying are dealt with by a team of support assistants whose primary role in the school is to be a point of contact for any pupils to discuss any problems they might have, be it school or home related. This works very well. Pupils are also given advice on how to prevent bullying starting, this is not 100% effective, but does help those most at risk (those with few friends, those who are 'different') find places where they can be safer.

The education system is by no means perfect, and there are many contradictore policies within it. But the prime concern of any school is the welfare of its' students, and helping them to develop to the best of their ability. This is not, and never will be a process with concrete answers, and is quite probably something that no one will ever get 100% right, by any method.

Dave, I'm aware that you did not directly criticise teaching staff, but well worded as your posts are, they do come across as very confrontational at times, and frequently it seems as though you are not really prepared to give others' views recognition. Not everyone is as articulate or as able to express their views as you are, and perhaps people do have a perfectly good basis for their opinion, but just feel unable to express it coherently.


Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

KITTENS!!!!

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I was just wondering... thumperabbit or any other home-educated people, are you still around? What did you do about practical stuff in PhysEd, biology, chemistry, arts, music and physics? Surely that's the main bit of the subjects... I can see how some music and arts and sports can be done, but the labs in sciences would involve space and equipment and safety regulations you can't have at home.

It'd be interesting to see how many scientists come out of home ed compared to schools.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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