Forums > Social Discussion > Anger, delinquency and immorality; Youth culture

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nazgob
Member
Location: liverpool/somerset
Member Since: 28th Jan 2005
Total posts: 8
Posted:The premise is this



Imagine your typical angry teenager. Picture the gang. Hoodies. Torn jeans. Big dogs. Lager. Drugs. Leather and chains. Gold chains and skinheads. Attitude.



How many of these kids can be persuaded to remain inside the bounds of law. How many of these kids do you think are able to comprehend the harm done by a burglary. Or by intimidation. How many find it funny to be 'hard' or to scare those that walk past them.



How do we reform them? Can they be taught morals? Is it even right to impose our idea of morals upon those who disagree? Are people born into this existence, or do they develop into it? And finally, given the inclination, can a person leave their culture?

EDITED_BY: nazgob (1130451327)




Spielkind and proud of it!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi nazgob wot's the problem? One assumption that could be made, is that some people have an aversion for kids and rap.



To answer your question. I'm not big on the "self-righteous" (especially if like GW Bush, they hear voices telling them to do it) imposing their idea of morals on anyone.





eek


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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nazgob
Member
Location: liverpool/somerset
Member Since: 28th Jan 2005
Total posts: 8
Posted:Stone, i think you misinterpreted what i meant, and just for you, i removed the reference to rap. I do not have an aversino to kids (being only 19, in many peoples books i still am one). Rather, im attempting to start a discussion on morals, and what many people see as a fall in morals among the youth of today, by using images that amny people can relate to and understand.



Spielkind and proud of it!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Is there a fall in morals among the youth of today? My father was born in 1921 and he said that kids then did everything that kids today do...except drugs. That, he said, is new since the 60's.

Remember, hoodlum kids grow into adults...and the vast majority of adults out there are worthless slackers, just as are the teens. It's just that those adults are forced to work to feed themselves. So we don't see them because they don't have as much free time. And then they have kids who are raised in kind. It's all very cyclical.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Yes, I think there is a change; I think we should note that nazgob is posting from the UK where everyone I have spoken to tells me youth scene is more overtly violent than ever before.. including people who know that there has always been stuff happening.

.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:In a base sense, i'd say that there needs to be a firmer enforcement of the basic laws of society, right from the time school starts. Start making teachers have a lot more behavioural science classes, and keep the lessons refreshed, so they know how to teach - not just the lessons in the class, but the lessons for out of the class. Allow those that excel to do so, instead of keeping them marching at the pace of the slowest. stop trying to force people into a mould for the first 16-19 years of their life. Make people responsible for what they do earlier - none of this 's/he's not old enough to understand' when a 16 year old breaks into a house. If s/he doesn't get the difference between right and wrong, bloody well teach them. And make the punishment a punishment, and make it suit the crime.



A few scattered thoughts i pulled out regarding prevention/reform...

added afterward

As for what morals we should teach them, if any, it's fair to say that there's a basic level of decency we should all conform to. Don't kill people. Don't hurt people. Stuff like that. Drum it into people from day one that there is a way to act decently in society. And if there's a repeated lack of response to that, ie, three violent crimes, then after the individual crimes' discipline (jail, comm. service etc), there will be a significant step up in the severity of that discipline, culminating in exile from society. Permanently. Or, probably a better alternative, find somewhere that those traits are useful. Cities haven't got a great need for people with lots of anger and hate, but there's bound to be something that would suit someone like that nicely. Note that this is just a base idea, and that example of discipline/punishment is fairly specific to the violent crimes bit - i dont think we should start cutting people's hands off for stealing bread, and nor do i think that we should let murderers have 5 or 6 tries at life.



Anyway, that's a bit more than the point i initially wanted to make, so i'll leave it at that.

EDITED_BY: MiG (1130480193)


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Psycho_lemming
Psycho_lemming

Running hippy spinning lemming
Location: Scotland
Member Since: 16th Jul 2004
Total posts: 15
Posted:

sorry brain not awake for a long reply but... says it all really


Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering...

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Arr nazgob u mean bogans aka cannon fodder; the youth of today and yesterday.



Live and let live I say.



Or ship them off to New South Wales.



Anyhow, as a bit of an old hippy living in an ex British penal colony, why do u think your morals and fashion sense are better than anyone elses?



Heave away, haul away wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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nazgob
Member
Location: liverpool/somerset
Member Since: 28th Jan 2005
Total posts: 8
Posted:I go away for the weekend, and people posted on me thread! I must admit im shocked smile

Stone, i have no wish to impose my morals on anyone. In fact, im pretty sure that a society based on my morals would crash and burn, and as for my fashino sense...well...we'll just leave that in the school play costume cupboard shall we? While i dont think i can be the basis for a good society, i must say that there are certain others that are worse.

Doc lightning is right - a lot of these problems have been around for centuries; for example, there was an article about the original St Pauls cathedral (it was burned down in 1666 if anyone didnt know), which said it had problems with kids breaking the stain glass windows, and other wonderful things. However, what newgabe said about me posting from Britain is important. In the last 10 years Britain has become a much less innocent place. And not just in terms of crime. When i was a lad, our idea of a good time was not hanging around on street corners, and neither was it getting taken to hospital for alcohol poisoning at the age of 12. The number of gangs of kids no older than 11 or 12 roaming the streets of Liverpool after dark is frightening.

It certainly feels as though morals are neither effectively taught in schools or the home any more. Too many children collect their morals from Tv or cinema, and lets be honest, the ratings system has gone to pot. Lord of the rings was a great film, but can we really suggest that it was children suitable? 10 years ago, that trilogy would not have been a 12A, but a 15. In hollywoods constant desire to shock new audiences, it has lowered the standard of censorship.

A film that romanticises gang culturecan have obvious affects upon a child, but one that critiques it will be just as bad. Take nicolas cage's Lord of War. A film about a gun runner, an arms dealer, who came from a life of poverty to one in which hes fabulously wealthy, landed the woman of his dreams, can have sex with any woman he wants, and when arrested, is let go without cahrge. I am not stupid enough to think that an eight year old will watch this film and pay attentino to the message, but a fourteen year old could watch it and take the impression that breaking the law attracts no consequences.

I agree with MiG, that more serious crimes require harsher punishment, but it is essential to instill in the "youthful delinquents" a fear of punishment, and a belief that they will be caught and punished.




Spielkind and proud of it!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
Oops! nazgob. I think I got side tracked by what people want to do to Chavs. A nice one being - educate them in prison and just leave them there.

My reference to penal colonies was meant to be historic. Because in the old days when Britain became fed -up with the "lower classes" they just shipped them off to places like Australia. I think you need to examine the way society functions in Britazin and its priorities, to answer your questions.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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