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Forums > Technical Discussion > Counterweighted Poi Handles: Progression or Digression?

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Mr_Chutney
SILVER Member since Apr 2003

Mr_Chutney

Tosser
Location: Herefordshire

Total posts: 1711
Posted:I have been a keen poi thrower ever since I first started reading Spherculism. Up until very recently I had stubbornly refused to add counterweights to my poi, instead only using modest knoted handles (Ok, this is a form of counterweight, but there are no additional materials added).



The reason for this is that I felt. in some strange, almost emotive way, I was fundamental changing poi into a different toy.



This brought me to the more difficult question: what therefore, do I regard poi AS? I thought back to my first encounter with poi, in Greenwich park, watching some bloke spin tennis balls about on string. That image somehow strikes me as being the definitive poi (and yes i know how horrible they would be to spin smile).



So here I find myself, counterweighted, wibble happy, poi sat next to me, and I wouldn't want to play with anything else. Yet I almost feel guilty- weigthing both ends of the poi, evenly or otherwise, is simply creating a mini-meteor, though they are seldom used as such.



So- am I worrying about nothing, or is there something worth thinking about. Are the counterweighted poi so many of us have some hybrid, or merely a pregression of the art?

EDITED_BY: Mr Chutney (1129892751)


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:dave i should be at sheffield on the 12 th of this month and my poi certainly have weigthed handles.

in my opinion
everything thats possible with non weigthed handles is possible with weighted handles (sometimes its harder sometimes its easrier...), but the reverse is not true. so by putting weigths in your handles you have a few more possiblities, and i reckon that equals more fun smile


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:You can't have non weighted handles, you just get light ones and heavy ones. Your normal bog standard tailed poi have finger loops which are effectively counter weights.

There are simply throws you cannot do without the counterweight (eg triple spin landing back to the hand on the beat), likewise there are throws you can't do with the counterweight (comet style throws)

Personally if it don't wibble i don't use it...

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:I prefer my handles to be just weighted enough for my poi to flip once. I noticed with 15 gauge ball chain, about 20 inches, you dont need any counter weight for it to flip right. The chain is heavy enough and has very little air resistance. 13 gauge, however, does need a little weight to keep it going, otherwise it dies in the air. For socks and such, usually a couple of knots is good enough for me.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: spherculist

You can't have non weighted handles, you just get light ones and heavy ones. Your normal bog standard tailed poi have finger loops which are effectively counter weights.




I think that's a terminology issue.

I don't think anyone here would have thought that 'unweighted' meant 'zero weight'- rather, it means that weight hasn't been intentionally added to change to way the poi spin when releasesed.

To me, an unweighted handle is a handle that hasn't been modified with extra mass- so, for example, the handle end of my sock poi are 'unweighted' (despite possessing weight); as opposed to the sock poi of those here who add knots or weights to the handle end of their socks.

Similarly, tailed poi with basic finger loops, I'd call 'unweighted' (despite the fact that they possess some weight), in contrast to a set of finger loops that have had extra weight added to facilitate specific moves.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Dave ~ "Similarly, tailed poi with basic finger loops, I'd call 'unweighted' (despite the fact that they possess some weight), in contrast to a set of finger loops that have had extra weight added to facilitate specific moves."

But when they spin in the air the cord from handle to head stays straight because of the weight of the handle.

But i agree that sock poi without knot's etc can be considered unweighted. However the drag of the sock alters the movement through the air quite a bit.

Traditional maori poi have nothing on the end of the string and when in the air they act exactly like a ball with no cord.

My point was you can't get non weighted handles, you either have handles or no handles. Unless the cord is of similar density to the handle i suppose.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I understand that socks without knots have air resistance, and that they behave unlike a thin cord.

I'm just suggesting a solution to a potentially confusing bit of terminology.

Presumably 'weighted' handles (as in a pre-existing handle with weight added) came about, because it was thought that the added weight would lead to better performance.

And thus, we have a clear distinction between a poi with 'unweighted' handles (which, in most cases, nevertheless have handles which weigh something and may have air resistance characteristics as well); and 'weighted' handles (eg knots in socks, or attached wire to increase mass).

I don't think it's useful to have people taking 'weighted' to mean 'a handle that weighs something' and 'unweighted' to mean 'a massless, or non-existant handle (eg- your maori example).

Rather, i'd like to see 'unweighted' handles taken to mean simply a handle which has not been customised with extra weight; and, 'weighted' to mean a handle which has been customised with extra weight to achieve a specific effect.

Purely because then we have a meaningful and useful term, as opposed to something which means the same as 'lacking weight', which, in the context of poi releases is of no real use for communicating information.

without wanting to slip into 'nit-picking' territory smile so maybe I should shut-up smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:Written by: ICoN

13 gauge, however, does need a little weight to keep it going, otherwise it dies in the air.



dies in the air? I've never had that problem with 13 gauge, maybe its a matter of length...and fliptitude?

I also agree with dave that unweighted should mean unmodified handles and weighted should mean specialised grips.

Devilstick_Russell, a digression, besides being the act of digressing, also means, 'a going aside' Dictionary entry for digression, so you can't say that simply because more than half the people are doing it one way, the others are digressing by not following the trend.


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Dave, I think from the technical point of view juggling sock poi without counter weights is probably more difficult, and would be good to practice with. However, at an irregular, out of session meeting, the Olympic committee into all things poi was only prepared to concede a one point degree of difficulty, over regular sock poi. I'd lodge a protest wink

spherculist from what Ive seen, traditional Maori poi have a knot and tassel as a handle and button hole poi have the tassel and knot in the centre.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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infinite


infinite

member
Location: ashland OR

Total posts: 110
Posted:It is progresion , I learned double wibbles from upsidedown butterfly, you do like thread needle but get the poi to wrap on opposide wrists.
Flaming wibble footage coming soon!


dont make peoples heads turn, give them whiplash.

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa

Total posts: 1799
Posted:i think its a progression if it opens up more opportunities to do more things with your poi...
but they're both still poi...
and the maori dont throw their poi.
smile


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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Shaner
SILVER Member since May 2005

Shaner

newbie
Location: europe

Total posts: 22
Posted:throwtalk;
I have a set of poi with a counterweight and a set without, now the one with counterweight makes handles fling round almost effortlessly whereas without a counterweight i have to give it a flick, the plus with not having a counterweight is that I choose how fast the midair spin is. i can have a slow spun high throw or a fast spun low by putting a flick into it. also no counterweight means the poi head will follow a straight path, whereas a counterweight will cause the poi/handle to spin around the center of the chain wich I personally prefer to take out of the equation, sothat when the poi is in the air, it will still complete the circle smoothly. I cant comment on wibbles really, i havent gotten into them.

so at what point do you call you're handles a counterweight, i like the kevlarhead/chain ratio wich some poeple might call a counterweight but i wouldnt. so my verdict; counterweight be gone! wink


if carrots made u drunk, rabbits would be pretty f***ed up

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Yakumo
SILVER Member since May 2006

Yakumo

veteran
Location: Oxfordshire

Total posts: 1237
Posted:I agree with onewheeldave, it's how I've always thought of it, and from that point being biased just assumed it was the obvious way biggrin

un-weighted - nothing added (loop handles on chains still count in this category).
weighted - additional weight purposefully added.


Weighted are far easier to isolate in the air, and thus control exactly where they'll be.


Blinded by Hyperlights, please donate generously grin

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa

Total posts: 1799
Posted:neither better nor worse, merely different.

both create different effects, necessitate different techniques.

maybe neither progression/digression but a step sideways.

 Written by: yakumo


it's how I've always thought of it, and from that point being biased just assumed it was the obvious way




personal preference determines a lot.

either way, throws are ace!

(and how can we mention throws without their siblings wraps and tangles?)

wraps and tangles are ace!


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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Page: 12

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