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Forums > Social Discussion > Medical Torture/Medical Futility

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So this is another of those "I know better because I'm a doctor" rants. wink



So I'm doing my second month in the NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) starting tomorrow. When I left the NICU 8 weeks ago there was a baby there who was doing poorly. He's a former 25-week preemie (full term is 40 weeks, 37 weeks is term, you can abort in NY state at 23 weeks) on day of life 180+. He's now two months post-term. He's had every single complication of prematurity you can imagine.



He has severe lung disease and is on a special kind of ventilator reserved for only the most critically ill patients. He has high blood pressure in his lungs and is on digoxin and diuretics. He has terrible hernias that are so far into his scrotum that his penis is hidden. He has had some bowel obstruction and has vomited blood. He has had multiple infections. He has had multiple transfusions. He has had multiple episodes of oxygen deprivation due to his lung disease and likely has SEVERE brain damage. And he has hypospadias, which is where the urinary meatus (the "pee hole") emerges from the underside of the penis due to a failure of proper closure of the penis in development. And his retinas have suffered and he will be severely visually impaired, if not blind.



*IF* he ever survives this, I can say with confidence that he will have no meaningful life. What do I mean by this and who am I to judge the meaningfulness of life?



Well, simply, I reject that a life lived half in the hospital with repeated pneumonias, severe asthma, essentially no higher brain function, and limbs locked in painful contractures is meaningful. In fact, I consider keeping a child alive to live such a life to be nothing short of cruelty.



This has been explained to the child's mother, but she is a deeply religious woman (in spite of having this child out of wedlock) and she refuses to activate a DNR (Do Not Rescuscitate) order.



So every time the baby's heart rate drops, we have to do chest compressions and give him epinephrine. Chest compressions are amazingly painful and break ribs. He requires rescuscitation up to five times a day (although he hasn't needed any in a week now, amazingly).



His mother just doesn't seem to get it. We explain his prognosis to her, she breaks down in tears, and the next day comes in and cheerfully asks "he's going to be normal, right?"



And, although this shouldn't matter, this is a Medicaid hospital. That third of my paycheck that goes to taxes is paying to torture this child. And yes, I consider it torture.



So here's my question: when is it child abuse? When is it abuse period? I've seen patients, both pediatric and adult, kept alive and had amazingly terrible things done to them because the family insisted on "doing everything."



The Oath of Hippocrates does not actually contain an admonition to "Do No Harm," but this is a basic tenet of medicine. I believe we're harming this child by painfully prolonging the inevitable...or by condeming him to a life of sickness and pain.



What do you think? Should doctors have more power to pull the plug over the objections of the next of kin? Or am I being an arrogant ass in a white coat wanting to play God? Or are we already playing God by keeping this kid alive?





-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Adya Miriyana
GOLD Member since Feb 2005

Adya Miriyana

*slou?
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 6554
Posted:wow.
that's so saddening.. sure, there is a right to life, but there's only so far you can take it. It would be terribly sad to see this little guy pass away, but i think it would be even more terrible to torture him like this for too much longer. If he does make it out of hospital oneday, he won't have any kind of 'normal' life, his condition eventually bringing him down slowly til the end.

The mother seems still in a state of denial.. i think (and hope, in a way) that eventually she'll give consent to a DNR, when she comes to the conclusion that her child's being tortured rather than saved. Being a religious woman, she most likely feels that this is considered murdering her own child by not rescusitating him.. but i think there is a point at which we sometimes just have to let go and let nature take it's course

I wish the best for all involved in the situation, and if this means letting him go, i'm sure there's a special place for him up there somewhere.

hug


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:The part that gets me is that the kid didn't do anything to deserve this. He's innocent.

This, folks, is why I don't believe in God. God has compassion.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Imbalance
GOLD Member since Sep 2005

Imbalance

not different, just not the same
Location: Charlotte, NC

Total posts: 263
Posted:ya know, i had this whole rant type thing typed out just now. about how i think letting the kid live is so wrong and how religion and medicene get mixed up so much and cause so many problems and even a nice little tangent about my belief when it comes to religion and such.

however i decided not to post this. I don't feel like angering people on here. I've never very often been able to have a descent religious/political/ethical discussion with people since they always get angry at some point. I never do, but people i speak to always do. It's hard to find someone who whill objectively speak on these kinds of subjects as i do without getting all defensive or resorting to the "i believe it therefore its true" arguement.

so, let me just say, its wrong to keep this kid alive. who knows, GOD may not intend for the kid to live. But this is not my place to determine, and i'm sorry you are forced to have to deal with these hard ethical problems.

good luck with it all.


I once learned every move that there was,
Every style, Every technique.
Then I woke up, and forgot it all,
So now I struggle to dream.

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myco
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

myco


Location: melbourne, victoria, australia

Total posts: 2084
Posted:this subject is very conflicting for me. i'm studying nursing, and i'm also a personal carer for people with disabilities. i believe medical treatment should be withdrawn if it is deemed futile, although i'm not comfortable with this decision being made when it goes against the wishes of the family (or the patient themselves, if they are able to express their wishes).

like i said, i work with people with disabilities. the disabilities my clients have range from mild intellectual diabilities (ie. they have the capacity to live independently with some support) to severe physical and intellectual disabilities. i work some clients who are unable to communicate intentionally (that is, while they may be able to cry out to communicate they are hungry, they would not be able to point to food to show they are hungry). some are are unable to move independently beyond spasms or reflexes. some show no awareness to their extenal environment. depending on the extent of the damage sustained by the baby Lightning is describing, this is likely to be how this baby will end up, if he survives. and while my clients receive very infrequent active medical treatment, other than medication and in some cases tube feeding, some of them had a period where life support was necessary.

the part of this whole issue that unsettles me is that of quality of life or meaningfulness of life. i'm not able to assume what satisfaction any of my clients are getting out of life. i can only compare their quality of life to my own, based on my values. my own quality of life centers around things like independence, meaningful interaction with people that are special to me and achievement. at this point in my life, with these priorities, i can only assume that if i was deprived of these things, i would be lacking in quality of life. this doesn't allow for any change in priorities if my situation changed.

i read about a case recently where a woman was involved in a traumatic accident and was classed as being in a a persistive vegetative state (like terri schiavo, who was in the media recently). before her accident she told her husband that if she was ever in that possision, she'd want to have life supporting treatment withdrawn. there were debates over whether her treatment should be withdrawn, and it was decided that it wouldn't be. years down the track, she was reassessed to see if there were any changes in her level of consciousness, and she showed that she was able to clearly and reliably communicate (from memory i think it was eye movements). when asked, she indicated clearly that she wanted to live.

i think that i am mainly reluctant to judge people with severe disabilities as not having a good quality of life, because i'm scared to see my clients lives as worthless. i don't think that this is my right. if i do view my clients lives as worthless, the next assumption is that my attempts to provide comfort, meaningfullness and manintanence/development of their abilities, are also worthless. so keep that in mind as i say this that i do have personal interests in this topic.


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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:perhaps an option would be to have the mother sit and watch either a live resus, or film one, and show her what her precious boy has to go through so she can get what she wants.

I dunno if that's sick, twisted and wrong or not, but maybe, by showing her the pain and suffering that he has to go through to make it to tomorrow, she could change her mind.

Or, and this is probably even worse than the last suggestion, but what if you accidentally overdid it on a resus? Or if the resus failed? could one of those events be engineered to occur, or would that be taking it too far?


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Gnor
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth

Total posts: 5814
Posted:Not for resus is a very important medial tool. I havent seen it in use when the babe is young but have had many older people where hindsight has given us the wisdom of NFR. Watching beloved elderly people have personality changes and loss of dignity has made me a believer. Leaves us with a false memory of beloved people.
As a doctor handling the reins of life and death of a baby would be hard, in a case like this where the repeated complications have a almost definate end result of very poor quality of life its clearer what would be best. Its the early days where it would be hard.
The child has to live in a world of horrid children and adults who wont understand that his problems are not of his choice. Pack mentality in kids can be viscious.
The parents dont realise what a world of pain they have ahead.
Our bodies do abort babies in the normal scheme of life and as painful as this is it has a purpose. A week earlier and there probably would have been no choice but medical advances have allowed us to spend fortunes keeping these babes alive but quality of life..who knows till later.

Doctors do get to play god and thats why they have so much training ...so they at least are informed. Its what is done with it. You seem pretty level and informed and dedicated. Not all doctors are ...

Next of kin need to get a grip and think properly and make an informed decision.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:they're so bound up together now though, religion & medicine, it's hard to seperate.

all our medical advancements have brought us here....to the point where the world is over populated ridiculously, and people in a lot of pain aren't even allowed to make their own choice to die, let alone parents making that decision for a baby that can't talk.

i think there would be a lot of benefit in stepping back, and seeing how much of our helping is really just causing pain...but at the end of the day, who decides who dies, or where that particular line is drawn?

a doctor might have more of an idea of what is right because they have a slightly more objective view...but then that could be an argument against. obviously you care about your patients a lot, but if this baby dies, it won't be YOUR baby dying will it?

medicine seems to have brought us to a place where we HAVE to play god, because the time when someone would have died goes past now, with machines that force every part of your body to struggle on i just think that medical knowledge has advanced way beyond our ability to make moral decisions....basically our technical advancement and spiitual advancement do not match. We are not ready to say who will live or die.

i don't know what to say about this one baby....but personally i think that stepping back in time a bit, and maybe letting some people go before we attatch them to a machine wouldn't be a bad idea, at least until we are ready to make those ethical decisions - and by that i mean ALL of us....not just the enlightened few. Maybe that day will never come, and in that case, i think it's best that we don't have tools beyond our means.

BTW this is at one end of my view on this matter - just some thoughts i had, i can see the other side of the argument too....but then i guess that's the problem isn't it? i'm not really ready to decide either. all i know is if i was in that situation i think i would rather die.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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_Aime_
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

_Aime_

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hastings

Total posts: 4172
Posted:Theres lots of things swimming around in my head, and no matter how long I sit here and type, am I going to be able to present my thoughts properly...

Love makes you blind, no?
This woman obviously loves her son whom she gave birth to. All she cares about his keeping him alive.
I think her focus on keeping his heart beating and keeping him alive is blinding her from the fact that should he survive he is facing a life of not really knowing whats going on around him, who he is even, misery and pain.

In severe cases I think Doctors should have some kind of say with this...but then, how are you going to reason with a hysterical woman who belives you are trying to 'kill' her son?

*damns her inability to get her point across over the internet*


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: myco

i think that i am mainly reluctant to judge people with severe disabilities as not having a good quality of life, because i'm scared to see my clients lives as worthless.



There's one universal standard I do use: pain and suffering.

Contractures are painful. Being sick is unpleasant. If most of your life is spent sick and in pain, then I think I have a right to say that your life has no meaning and is worse than worthless: it's cruelty. Since many of these people have repeated pneumonias and contractures...


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Mojojo
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

Mojojo

wandering dingo
Location: Aussie in London

Total posts: 167
Posted:Hmmmmm. Everything else aside,
One would think perhaps if the mother was SO religious that she surely would think it wrong to "play God" and interfere with the natural process of life, or death, as the will of her God may be.

Damn religious hypocrisy.


Only three things are certain: Death, Taxes, and that England will not win back the Ashes in this lifetime.

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:I agree with aimee - the mother obviously expected to go the whole nine months, and when she didn't there may be a feeling of failure, and now she's determined to see the child live.

Its not her fault, its just her motherly instinct to nurture her baby and keep it alive, no matter what.


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:absolutely.

we have to make the choice between dragging people back to life & then having to decide when they die, or just letting nature take its course in the first place andlosing some people we might have been able to save.

depending on your religions views, sometimes dying is the better option anyway.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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DrBoo
BRONZE Member since Oct 2005

DrBoo

I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
Location: Cornwall

Total posts: 453
Posted:I think I'm with Doc on this one.

It's a debate I've had with people close to me for some time now. It's that old adage of just because we can, does it mean we should? i.e. we have learnt so much in such a relatively short space of time, but the consequences of using some of the things we have learnt- ie keeping younger and younger premature babies alive - often do not seem to be considered fully.

I agree that if a baby is suffering, and is likely to suffer for the majority of the rest of its days, that is no fit life for an infant.

It is a lot to ask a doctor to keep a baby alive, knowing that that infant is in pain, and knowing that the child will be unlikely to ever live a full and pain free life. But we seem to do it all the time now.

I've worked with people with learning disabilities as part of my training, and I am very clear that they do have something to offer society, and they have the potential to be happy and content with their lives. However, a large part of me has a problem with the notion of keeping an infant alive knowing that it will be severely learning disabled, especially if it will also, in all likelihood, have a life of pain.

Having said this rant, I am also very sure that if it were my child, the issues would not seem so clear cut.

Anyway, that is my rant.


Boo x

I intend to live forever - so far, so good.

If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:This is the same thing that makes some people abusive. Not every single case, obviously, but many. She's so wrapped up in her own pain, fear of failure, desire for sucess, that the baby has ceased to exist outside of that. The baby is reduced to a part of that struggle, and she sees her sucess as depending on the babies survival. And so, like many abusers, she doesn't see what she's doing. She has no clue- if you point it out to her, she won't remember it, in all liklihood.
Another case where I actually wish CPS(etc) could get involved, altho this is a less clear cut one than many.

But having said that:
Written by:

If most of your life is spent sick and in pain, then I think I have a right to say that your life has no meaning and is worse than worthless: it's cruelty




I understand what you mean. Nonetheless, as you've said it, a lot of people with rather meaningful lives would be grouped under that heading. I think it may actually be a very rare thing that people can overcome such situations and go on to have productive lives - but as you said it its false.

However there is of course a point (and it differs from person to person) where the amount of suffering and the lack of other good things makes the quality of life far too low to be useful.... and that is something we need to pay more attention to!


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:If you could get a board of medical professionals, say, 5 of them to judge the potential improvement in someone's life, then maybe you could make a decision on whether to resus or not.

E.g. In your case then the baby will fairly obviously never improve much, if at all. Therefore the board would be able to put a DNR on him.

Now, I *know* that there are always cases where people improve without any prior indication that this is possible, BUT I believe that you *have* to take this in your stride. It's just like the law, sometimes it goes wrong or makes mistakes. However, on the whole, it keeps society together.

And if you're Christian, then the baby is obviously innocent, and will go to heaven when it dies, where it will have a hell of a lot better quality of life than being stuck on 5 different machines, and having his ribs broken every day.

Generally, you will be saving many people from a life lived in torment.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:an interesting first proposal......who would you have on your borad?

how would you pick them?


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:People who volunteered for the board, and you'd obviously have people from different medical backgrounds... e.g. (Pardon the laymans terms wink ) Someone who knows about brains, someone who knows about blood, someone who knows about premature babies, someone who knows about diseases that can cause such states etc etc.

Just an idea, I don't know enough about the medical profession to be able to know whether it is viable or not. smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Personally I would not want the board to be made up of 100% medical professionals, if they are basically judging whether someone is going to live or die.

Obviously you'd need some medical professionals to objectively assess and explain the state of the persons physiology; but I'd also want to see non-medical people on it as well.

And I'd very much want to see a disabled person who can represent the views of the disabled community, and offer perspectives that the able-bodied may not fully understand.

I very much agree with the view that, currently, there's too much focus on life-at-all-costs.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

Total posts: 5688
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

I very much agree with the view that, currently, there's too much focus on life-at-all-costs.



Yep - I whole-heartedly agree.

It's a huge moral dilemna really - the world is hugely over-populated in terms of our current environmental impact, yet our progress in science means people are living longer, surviving diseases/injuries/disabilites which would otherwise have killed them and so "survival of the fittest" is a thing of the past.
But along with our medical/scientific advancement is our increased awareness of morality - and no-one is going to start suggesting we stop offering help to those we can, no matter what the long-term benefits to the planet are.

I've had many an hypothetical arguement with Mrs Durbs about this - i.e. the easiest, cheapest and simplest method to implement with regards to reducing enviromental strains is to force a return to survival of the fittest (i.e "natural evolution" ) by withdrawing aid and reducing the amount of life-prolonging medicine in the world

Important NB I don't agree with this at all, it's just a hypothetical solution.


Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:You know, I speak to this as a physician who has had to make the decision for a loved one: my father.

I withdrew life support on my father when he was critically ill because it was obvious to me that if he survived, he would have a very poor quality of life.

One might say "Well that's different because your father had lived a full life!" Of course he had. And every case is different. But withdrawing care on a loved one is perhaps the hardest decision anyone can ever make. I appreciate that.

Full life he may have lived, but he was 81. Some people live to 100 and have 99 GOOD years. So maybe he only lived 80% of a full life. Who knows?

But I loved my father enough to let him go. I've done it.

In this case, at least five medical professionals have agreed about this child's prognosis. There is a hospital ethics committee, but legally, not ethically, this is out of their realm, because the child isn't brain dead.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Oh god no please, I hope this sort of thing dosent happen, a panal of judges decideing if someones else baby dies? Its unthinkable and barbaric, it sounds like something more suited to edwardian medicine, not what we should be doing today. It should be the parents choice, or the appropriate next of kin that should decide, or marriage partners or whatever.



Did anyone watch that program on extreme people on chnnel four a while back? the child born without a face? you could probably still find loads of information on it on google or something. I saw that and was really surprised by it, I expected it to be really upsetting but it asnt really, this baby has to have hundreds of operations to give her a face (as they put it) and you only really got to see her up to about 2 maybie 3 years,but despite pretty much being in constant pain and eventually having to have jaw correcting pins put in her for months at a time, wich had to be tightend and alterd weekly as her face grew larger, she was a very detemrined and happy child, even with the pain. It showed her footage of her sitting up in the hospital bed after realy traumatic facial sergery playing, laughing (well her version of laughing she had no lower jaw at all) she looked really happy despite everything she goes through. Most people would say she hadnt much quality of life but you can never really tell can you, you can only compare it to your own and what everyone thinks is good or bad quallity is different.



Man its a tough case, and theres allways going to be tough cases, docs gonna have to face children far worse off than this one in his looong and fruitfull career. Really all that can ever be done is the doctors and nurses do what they have to do to keep the patients alive, and give the right people the choice to let them continue or stop, after all its thee familly, there relations. no one else, so does anyone else think they earned the right to make a choice like that for someone.



Now lets all give mike a huge hug for being a hero to the people grouphug


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Brit_Joe

Oh god no please, I hope this sort of thing dosent happen, a panal of judges decideing if someones else baby dies? Its unthinkable and barbaric, it sounds like something more suited to edwardian medicine, not what we should be doing today. It should be the parents choice, or the appropriate next of kin that should decide, or marriage partners or whatever.



There are certain cases where it does happen. If we can prove brain death (absence of cranial reflexes, absence of spontaneous respiration, etc. documented by a neurologist 12 hours apart) we can disconnect without consent.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:That blows...and im kinda scared now, what if I was in an accident and ended up like that, they'd kill me frown

Kinda scary dont ya think


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, if you're brain dead, then nobody's killing you. You're already dead.

The only justification for keeping a brain-dead body alilve is organ harvest. Other than that, you're ventilating a dead body and that's just not appropriate.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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KaelGotRice
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA

Total posts: 1584
Posted:*shrugs... such is life.

I remember reading an article about a nurse who "mercy killed" a man by not hitting the code blue button in time, because she saw pure pain and suffering in his eyes.

meh


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: Brit Joe
Oh god no please, I hope this sort of thing dosent happen, a panal of judges decideing if someones else baby dies? Its unthinkable and barbaric, it sounds like something more suited to edwardian medicine, not what we should be doing today. It should be the parents choice, or the appropriate next of kin that should decide, or marriage partners or whatever.



yeah, that's exactly my reservation...i'm not saying this doesn't happen...if it does then i guess i'm a bit haapier with it...but sureley it would be better for everyone if the mother was councelled through it until she could make the right decision for her child?

she is obviously scared, guilty, all sorts of things going through her head...you need to help her to let go, not force her to do something which, no matter how right for the child, may give her huge issues for the rest of her life.

Written by: Doc Lightning
There are certain cases where it does happen. If we can prove brain death (absence of cranial reflexes, absence of spontaneous respiration, etc. documented by a neurologist 12 hours apart) we can disconnect without consent.



that's a completely different matter though isn't it...turning off the life support of someone who is *already* dead does not equate to turning off the machine of a baby who is in pain, but still living.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Also, In the UK, you don't get dialysis if you're over 75.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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DragonFury
BRONZE Member since Mar 2005

Draco Iracundia
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 784
Posted:Religion, Life and Death are things that are never really good to discuss as everyone has different thoughts and different feelings towards it all.
I'm one of those people that isn't sure weither to believe in God or science, but i know both are a part of life that will always be around.
As for right to live and DNRs its something that i dont know what to totally believe. My grandfather had a life that he loved and that made everyone who knew him proud. He slowly lost his health via heart attacks, strokes, loosing his eye sight but he kept on going. Though he reached a point of saying DNR, which is hard for everyone else, because of the love and not wanting to let him go. But he felt that the pain and suffereing was too much and yeah...

If it wasn't for doctors, humi cribs etc i probably wouldn't be around today. i was born 4 weeks prem with lung problems so that i needed help to breath (and other minor problems) But i'm glad there were things to help me live. While i see myself as lucky to survive, i dont see people that are in the situation Lightning discribes as lucky. As hard as it is to see this child in pain, is there a way to prove that it is actually going to have brain problems? i read somewhere that the brain continues to develope for some time (in years) after birth. Is it possible that the child will grow and have a worthwhile life? and a worthwhile life to me is to be loved. If the child knows love and feels loved, then to me, they are living.

sorry for the confusing post....


Do we sleep when we die?

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plonka63


Member


Total posts: 6
Posted:this is indeed a very sad tale, until somebody has lost their own offspring they annot understand the pain. I can understand why the mother is desperate to see her baby live but everything that is born dies. That is one of the cestainties of life. maybe to release this spirit from this life would enable a rebirth into a much better life.Any karma would be burnt off and the soul would be free.A short cut to enlightenment. I think I am trying to justify my feeling that he should not be resucitated when it goes against my beliefs.Hope all goes well with all concerned.

keep the faith

love and good will


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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Problem is she's religiouse as doc says, and probably believes shes being tested or punished for having the child outside of marriage, I hope shes getting some counciling.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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