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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
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Posted:ok, i know there's always been a few people who are a bit ott about political correctness - but it seems to me that recently the PC bug is infecting even your sensible lay-person.

this is just my opinion, so if you find it offensive then bear that in mind before replying, but some people - argh!!!! It gets to the point where threads like this have to have someone posting to defend Hitler!!!

But nazism aside, a certain amount of discussion on sensitive matters like religion, politics, you know, that stuff that actually affects people's lives (as opposed to weather David Cameron has ever taken coke) is useful, and constructive.

in this world, people are insulted every day. they don't die from it, they aren't scarred for life. (and i'm not talking baout shouting names in the street, violence, you know.. actual racism) maybe they take another look at their views or maybe they just think you are a w***er. either way, that's their choice.

i can see free speech getting closer and closer to that drain, and it worries me. it worries me that in the future we will all be so busy discussing whether David & Kate took coke, and forget that some people are killing eachother in Iraq.

On another note....
look at this . i'm sure a lot of people saw this story. it made me sad that i'm not allowed to be proud of my country anymore. being proud of my country doesn't, for example, mean that i think anyone who's not caucasian doesn't belong here. it doesn't mean that i think asylum seekrs are scum, it doesn't, in short, mean i am a racist. i am pround of my country partly because it is multicultural, and i think it would be nice to set a standard for some other counries rather than pretend i am embarrased to live here.


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Tao Star


Tao Star

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Posted:i see what you mean, the only reason i picked out that thread was because it brought this up for me again...it was just someone saying that people could find it offensive.....not one even complained...which is the whole point - not necessarily that someone found it offensive, but that someone had to post that people might find it offensive.....people having to watch their backs 'just in case'.

i don't think anyone here doesn't understand that hitler killed a lot of people's grandmothers....are you implying that some people on HoP don't know about the holocaust?

Written by: onewheeldave
It doesn't matter if they're forced underground- like i say in the quote they're welcome to continue to hold racist beliefs- but, if they are underground, then the next generation of mainstream kids don't get to have it presented as part of 'normality' in their culture.



wha....? it doesn't matter????? i think it really really really does matter a lot. it's things that go underground that end up in things like the kkk (ok, extreme example). people who feel they can't talk about things end up feeling angry, frustrated, and they sure as hell go & do something about it. i think that open talking is the single best way of solving problems...or at least starting to address them. definately not telling them to shut up. again...if you don't know who had these views because they're not allowed to mention them, how is education, and therefore real change ever going to happen?


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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

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Posted:ok, here's another question to throw in to the pot.....

as a bi girl, i really don't have a problem with people calling me all sorts of names to do with that...well, i could give examples, but you know the kind of thing

i don't care if you call me b***h or tart or whatever (adam calls me that stuff all the time.) smile

however, for some reason some people find those words really offensive. now, i'm not pretending that i understand why they find them offensive, as far as im concerned they're just words but i totally respect that they do. so;

should we ban all people from using all those words ever? should we stop blakc people from calling eachother nigger? i certainly would never do it...but withing groups it seems to be acceptable. how do you figure that it's ok for some people to do it but not others? is that encouraging the children of tomorrow to grow up racist??

what do you think?


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Written by: Tao Star
Written by: onewheeldave
It doesn't matter if they're forced underground- like i say in the quote they're welcome to continue to hold racist beliefs- but, if they are underground, then the next generation of mainstream kids don't get to have it presented as part of 'normality' in their culture.



wha....? it doesn't matter????? i think it really really really does matter a lot. it's things that go underground that end up in things like the kkk (ok, extreme example). people who feel they can't talk about things end up feeling angry, frustrated, and they sure as hell go & do something about it. i think that open talking is the single best way of solving problems...or at least starting to address them. definately not telling them to shut up. again...if you don't know who had these views because they're not allowed to mention them, how is education, and therefore real change ever going to happen?


I was going to reply, but this post says what I was going to say anyway smile


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Like I said before, I'm not really talking about forcing racist groups underground- I'm talking about endevouring to eliminate innapropriate language.

There's a difference between overt racist groups who consciously wish to harass different races, and the kind of racial harrassment brought about by habitual use of racist terms.

Like i said before, many of those who use terms like 'nigger' and 'paki' do not consider themselves racist- it could be argued that they are actually not racist.

A term does not necessarily need racist intent to cause damage to minorities.

As far as I'm concerned, a ban on terms like 'nigger' and 'paki' in the work place is a good thing.

If some of those affected by it wish to go underground and form little clubs where they can freely use such terms, then so be it- it's preferable to those terms being bandied around in the workplace and being seen as normal and acceptable.

That's mainly what I'm talking about here.

---------------------

The other issue, of true racist groups, who do, with full intent, wish to harass minorities, is a different issue- but, i will point out that, with the KKK example, to say that that problem was caused by groups being forced undeground is, IMO, somewhat dubious.

My understanding of the KKK are that they were formed from die-hard remnants of a culture in which racism was both acceptable and legal.

A culture in which is was the norm to consider blacks to be inferior in all respects, and in which blacks were seen as slave labour.

So, whilst acknowledging that the KKK cause harm to minority races, and that being forced underground does not discourage them from those views and acts; surely it is much preferable to the situation prior to this, were those same people would, along with the majority of normal people in the culture, still have held racist views; and it have been both legal, and the social norm, to have done so?

I appreciate the value of education, but these type of people tend to be the least susceptible to education, they tend to be very fixed in their views, and it really is only a small minority of truly-racist individuals who do see the light.

Meanwhile, a new generation of people are born, and grow up in our social systems- IMO, ensuring that as many of those as possible don't become racist in the first place, is far more important than anything that a few festering remnants of underground racists can do.

IMO, one of the best ways of ensuring that the next generation of people don't grow up racist, is to shift currently racist groups out of the mainstream.

This in no way means that people cannot express their views, if those views are based on reason, rather than hate.

For example, if the BNP want to express that they consider it wrong- that minority racial groups are encouraged to celebrate their culture; whilst celebration of white culture is discouraged; then I'm fine with that.

But if some group wants to do a march down the high street chanting 'die, nigger, die', then I'm very happy for that to be dissallowed and for them to be forced underground.

And, yes, maybe that will increase their hate, but I'd much rather have them plotting and festering out-of-sight, then have them marching down the high street openly preaching hate.


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NYC


NYC

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Posted:Written by: Tao Star

i don't care if you call me b***h or tart or whatever (adam calls me that stuff all the time.) smile

should we ban all people from using all those words ever? should we stop blakc people from calling eachother nigger? i certainly would never do it...but withing groups it seems to be acceptable. how do you figure that it's ok for some people to do it but not others? is that encouraging the children of tomorrow to grow up racist??

what do you think?



Ug... this arguement again.

Again, it all comes down to understanding the HISTORY and CONTEXT of the situation.

If you are ignorant of history and context, it DOES seems stupid that some people should use certain words in certain situations and not in others.

If you take the time to LEARN about a culture, you'll be able to see WHY it might find some things offensive. If you're not willing to take the time to learn, then you should at least defer to the wishes of those that have.


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Birgit
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Posted:Dave, I assumed that someone would find using "he" OR "she" instead of "he or she" offensive, else it wouldn't have been bad pc to do it. If noone does, then for me there is no reason to use the longer version.

Note that in the context of my first post about it, I wasn't talking of only using "he", it could've been "she" as well. It was also about a test of English that takes place at testing institutes that charge you a stupid amount of money to use their computers which don't have a text programme, but just the test screens on them, so unless you're a computer expert and want to waste half of the time you have for the essay on setting up the shortcut this is not an option.

I'm not talking about not liking it because it's longer - by the way, a shortcut would still be as long as typing "he" for involving 2 or more keys but nevermind that - I just don't like it. I've worked for a newspaper and done lots of layout, I have my opinions on texts, and "he or she" is usually wasting space, making it look more complicated, and making it more complex to understand (unless you're used to it, yes). I'm saying this from the perspective of someone whose first language isn't English, and who (upon encountering he or she) will look for the second person mentioned in the text. s/he is even worse - it may be okay for a document stating rules or laws, but in any prose or article it's got no place IMO. And I'm not even talking about the official suggestion from the test people to alternate between he and she.

At the time of taking the test, I wasn't aware of the possibility of using "they" for a single person. I don't know if it's gramatically correct and good style, or if it's used in America where the test is evaluated, but people seem to use it a lot here, and I think it's a good solution. So is "one", though that sounds a bit stiff and I wouldn't use it too often.

I still would tend to go for "he" automatically, because in my native language the term "someone" is associated with the male form. On the other hand, the term "person" is female. There have been attempts to change "one", which is "man" (similar to Mann, man) in German, to "frau" (Frau=woman), started by the 1980s feminist movement. Years later and after lots of discussions it turned out that "man"/one stems from a different word than "Mann"/man, and there was finally an end to it. To me most of those things are not problems, it's the way language has evolved and as long as it's not obviously insulting, which you say the he/she thing isn't, I don't mind. I think half of these things are started by people who don't want to do anything useful with their free time.


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Tao Star


Tao Star

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Posted:that wasn't an argument, but a question - do you think that we should ban ALL people from using ALL offensive words, including those who use them (apprently acceptably) within their own groups.

i'm not saying that i don't understand why they use them and the history and context that surround them....you seem to think i'm stupid - what i mean is the, white kids will see black kids calling eachother those things and think it's ok. i'm not judging this one either way, i just want to know what you think.


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NYC


NYC

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Posted:I'm using the word "you" as in "someone."

If someone is ignorant of history and context then they would have trouble understainding how certain things are offensive.

I see this all the time in my classroom. Kids aren't born knowing context and history. So it's natural for a white kid to say "Why does that black kid get offended when I call him nigga but not when his black friend does?"... and the answer is "You really need to understand the history and the context of the situation."

I live in a country with a hell of a lot of history and context of offensive and opressive behavior. I'm certainly not an expert, but I do my best to point them in the right direction.

And lastly, nobody's banning anything. You can feel free to put on your KKK robe and your swastika and walk down main street.

BUT, I sure as heck have a right to get offended by it. AND (Here's my point) IF someone is confused as to WHY I'm offended by it, then it's because they don't understand the history and the context of the situation.


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Tao Star


Tao Star

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Posted:ok, that makes more sense biggrin

but what i'm propsing, is while knowing your history & context is indeed integral, maybe it's time we let go of some of the things that hurt our parents....maybe some of those things don't apply to us.

those kids growing up don't have experience of the slave trade & so many other things that have affected our language, and although it's important to know that stuff, well, letting go of them is valid too. i like to think that one day words like that really won't matter, because we know that the places and actions they came from would never be allowed to happen now.

i realise this is an idealistic view, but a lot has changed.

it's the same with the 'he' in writing....i think a while ago it would have been a lot more relevant to get rid of it. ok there are still unequalities between men & women in this society, but think of all the equality there is too, compared to just 50 years ago.

a few people have sai that they don't think the he/she thing is really offensive and i agree, because that whole issue is generally less, and so maybe it really doesn't matter any more.

people's hurt about the past needs to be addressed and worked on, but it doesn't need to be passed on to a new generation.

....i can see the flaws in this post already, it's a very idealistic view & i accept that, i'm not trying to give any definate answers here, just working through some ideas. smile


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NYC


NYC

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Posted:I don't have time for a full reply but I can assure you, today, in my country, there is not racial equality.

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
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Posted:argh, i know that!



what is the problem though, is not the words themselves. they just aren't! the problem is the people & their attitudes.



no matter what the history, or how painful or how bad the connotations, those are things that people project on to the words, otherwise it would never be ok for some people to say them and some not.



does that make sense?



i'm not arguing that there is racial equality, i'm not arguin FOR racism here. i don't really think words like nigger are ever appropriate, this seems to have got really twisted ot of proportion.



all i was saying, is that there is a breed of people who are overly offended by everything, who use political correctness as a tool, as a way of getting what they want, of twisting innocent people's words in to a big racist/sexist slur.



can you see why that annoys me? when i see girls making a huge fuss in club in the name of homophobia so they can get in free? when someone innocently posts something they thought was funny, and someone has to point out that people might be offended, even though it's on a website where i have never ever seen a nazi, and would be woried if i did?



i am in no way condoning racism, shouting insults at people, discrimination of any kind. im not saying these things don't exist in the world or that we shouldn't do anything about them, i'm not even saying that pc is always bad, and that it doesn't have its place in society. I'm just annoyed, that it has to bled in to places where it simply isn't appropriate.

EDITED_BY: Tao Star (1129726579)


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jemima (jem)
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jemima (jem)

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Posted:I was listening to a program on radio four this morning, I didn't catch it all, but there was a guy from trinidad, being interviewd beside Joan Rivers, and there was a discussion on why "black men" there are rarely good fathers. And for some reason he said something along the lines of , *everyone who is not black he feels intimidated by*, and as you'd expect, Joan got pretty horrified and felt it was a pretty personal attack suggesting that she not being black must be racist, or have something against "blacks". Her typical americamn veiw was that eveyone should be treated equally and "Race" should never be an issue at all, but in reality we have come far but there is a long way to go unfortunatly.

I think a way to start might be to teach kids in shools about cultures and backgrounds more fully.


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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
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Posted:ditto and while i'm on my soapbox, that's another thing.....there's a big swing towards not baing able to talk about things that means that legitimate discussions about the differences between races that are useful (like lack of black male role models in schools) can be stifled.

i have seen people say completely innocent and even halpful things, and everyone has turned round looking shocked, because suddenly it seems that drawing any kind of distinction between races or sexs is out. that's why i believe a lot of people censor their speech, even though they might have something constructive to say. there is a certain class of people who think everyone is exactly the same, and should be treated exactly the same.


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

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Posted:NYC: Awareness of the background of a culture or sub-culture does not change the fact that useage of offensive words in that culture in a non-offensive manner is divisory.

I.e. Blacks calling each other "Nigger" segregates them from White people, because there are different terms of address, and therefore they are part of a seperate culture.

Maybe your kids wouldn't be confused about anything at all if people just said "Hey Johnny" rather than "Hey Nigger". then they 1. would know how to address the person and 2. wouldn't feel excluded from that person's social group.

A more extreme version of this is right outside in my hallway. There's 15 people on my floor, and 6 of them are Oriental in origin. Now, they're all nice people, but they *insist* on talking in Korean/Chinese/Japanese whenever they're together. This isn't because they don't have very good english, because some of them have been living in England for about 16 years. Yes, it might let them socialise between each other more easily, BUT it excludes everyone who doesn't know what they're saying.

As a result, we feel uncomfortable when they talk between themselves, because we can't share jokes, or know what they're talking about, therefore we don't talk to them, therefore we have seperated into 2 social groups: Oriental and Non-Oriental.

Now we feel uncomfotable being in the same room as each other. We eat meals at seperate times, and we have 2 communal piles of cutlery+crockery, rather than one.

I don't think we should ban them from talking to each other in Chinese, but I would appreciate it if they didn't do it when other people are in the room. The same goes for Blacks using race-exclusive slang. Division, division, division.

We're supposed to be a Multi-Cultural University (about 20% of our students are Oriental) but all we have is cliques of students.

And you know what? I'm pretty sure that I could be friends with one of the guys, but I just can't talk to him when the rest of the group are in the room.


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Birgit
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Posted:Have tried the "you", nyc, but it doesn't work the way I want it. Nearly every time I've used it in a conversation someone thought I meant himorher (ubblol) specifically and not the general you...

d'oh smile

I agree it's a case of knowing the history of some words, but also of the person that feels insulted realising not every insult is intentional, and to explain instead of going silent, aggressive or complaining to someone else smile I've had this problem dozens of times, saying things to people that wouldn't be so bad in German but are insulting here, or not finding the right words, or thinking something someone said was meant offensive when it wasn't. Like you (one rolleyes) can call someone a pig in German when they make a mess with their food, but here it's a bigger insult than I though. Usually after both parties explain what was wrong it's alright.


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Birgit
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Birgit

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Posted:Sethis, try talking to him when they're not around, and explain your problem. If they don't want to, that's one thing, but if noone's ever addressed it openly, maybe you're the one to stop the nonsense smile Or at least get him and you to be the link between the groups...

I see ads for flats saying "polish student wanted" or "chinese student wanted" all the time, and I'm sure if someone put up a "british student wanted" it would be taken as racist shrug though, to be fair, most students still are British, so if someone wants to live with Brits only they'll usually find them through an ad anyways.


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Posted:Written by: Sethis

A more extreme version of this is right outside in my hallway. There's 15 people on my floor, and 6 of them are Oriental in origin. Now, they're all nice people, but they *insist* on talking in Korean/Chinese/Japanese whenever they're together. This isn't because they don't have very good english, because some of them have been living in England for about 16 years. Yes, it might let them socialise between each other more easily, BUT it excludes everyone who doesn't know what they're saying.


Mabey you could learn their language? wink


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Sethis
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Sethis

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Posted:Hey, when I decide to go to a Chinese University, then I will learn the language, and the odds are, speak in it to other people... smile

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NYC


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Posted:Written by: Tao Star

those kids growing up don't have experience of the slave trade & so many other things that have affected our language, and although it's important to know that stuff, well, letting go of them is valid too. i like to think that one day words like that really won't matter, because we know that the places and actions they came from would never be allowed to happen now.




"I don't know why Jews get all bitchy when we joke about the holocaust, it's not like it's still going on... I mean it's not like any of THEM were gassed to death... They should just let it go becuause it'd never be allowed to happen now."

confused


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

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Posted:Some of our Israeli exchange students went on a tour of concentration camps the year before the exchange. Apparently it consisted of being put in a bus, being driven to a camp, going out, rushing through, and doing so again with the next ones. In between were lots of jokes about the whole thing, and they called it "the holocaust tour". Think of it what you want, nyc, but it DOES sound a bit like the "nigger" example where it's okay for black people to call each other that but not for whites to say it.

Mind you, I don't intend to either call a black person "nigger" or make a holocaust joke, so if they want to call each other that or joke about it I don't like it a lot but I don't exactly feel left out...


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Posted:NYC - you're really twisting what i said...

i don't think that joking about the holocaust is ok.....i'm talking about being pc here, like on the borderline, not telling jews to get over it!!!

i think that's a bit of a weird example to be honest. my original point was about ''borderline' pc. i've said over & over that i'm not condoning discrimination etc in any way - i mean, really - the people who are actually racist etc go waaay over that line don't they? i think the current law covers them.

this discussion was supposed to be about pc that has gone beyone usefulness, where people use it to their advantage or to make others feel uncomfortable or bad. not legitimate uses which i've stated over and over i'm not against.


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onewheeldave
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Posted:Written by: Birgit

but it DOES sound a bit like the "nigger" example where it's okay for black people to call each other that but not for whites to say it.



Recently on UK TV there was a program on that issue, where a hip-hop artist who used the term 'nigger' in his work, and saw nothing wrong with it, visited other blacks who thought the use of the term had negative consequences for their race.

By the end of that journey the artist had come to the point of view that there was an issue there, and he was in the process of re-assessing his own use of the term.

Additionally, as NYC has pointed out, 'nigger' used by one black to another generally has no racist intent whatsoever, whereas, historically, the same could not be said of the vast majority of the instances of 'nigger' that have been spoken by a white person to a black one.
=============

Written by: tao star

this discussion was supposed to be about pc that has gone beyone usefulness, where people use it to their advantage or to make others feel uncomfortable or bad. not legitimate uses which i've stated over and over i'm not against.




Could you give a clear example of pc where people are using it to their advantage, or to make others feel uncomfortable?

The examples I've seen on this thread to now seem totally ambiguous in that respect.

If you can pick the most clear and unambigous case of pc being used 'wrongly', then we can be sure that we're all talking about the same thing.

In advance though, i'll say that, IMO, just because a pc issue is used to someones advantage, doesn't make it bad. A good example would be pc concerning disabled access- that's to the advantage of wheelchair users.

Even more so when it comes to making some people uncomfortable- I would imagine that every use of pc has made someone uncomfortable, given that so much of it is about changing the way people habitually behave- I'm sure that the police officers being banned from their habitual use of terms like 'black [censored]' felt that they were being unnessesarily picked upon.

So I'd say that those two factors alone are far from sufficient to dismiss any piece of pc as 'bad'.

Presumably then, you're talking about pc issues that are actually aimed at benefitting a group selfishly, or aimed soley to make people feel bad; yet which don't have any actual benefits?

If so, and if you can provide a good example, then I'll admit, you would have a point.


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Tao Star

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Posted:Written by: Tao Star

...there is a breed of people who are overly offended by everything, who use political correctness as a tool, as a way of getting what they want, of twisting innocent people's words in to a big racist/sexist slur.

...when i see girls making a huge fuss in club in the name of homophobia so they can get in free? when someone innocently posts something they thought was funny, and someone has to point out that people might be offended, even though it's on a website where i have never ever seen a nazi, and would be woried if i did?



seems like i just wasn't clear enough....and then spent ages arguing with someone who i'm really on the same side as.

people using PC to get what they want, not necdesarily by sueing, but through social pressure....making people who are not prejudiced feel as if they have done something wrong by stating their opinion...has no one else ever experienced this? I've been accused of being homophobic by a lesbian who had no idea that i'm not straight, basically because she disagreed with me on a personal level, but it seemed at the time like accusing me of being homophobic would stop the discussion because i would be embarrassed & shocked, and therefore she wouldn't actually have to defend her point any more....

i think PC is valuable, and helps a lot of people, but i think we're on ther verge of having it commonly used to silence people or make them feel wrongly guilty. And people find it hard to speak out about in case their accused of being racist/sexist etc. etc. as could have happened on this thread quite easily - i ended up arguing a point i really wasn't talking about, beause people feel the need to jump to the defence of it, i can see why it happens, but pc goes both ways......you can end up accusing people of things because they happened to be misunderstood.

i'm not saying this about HoP - i think we have a really good community here, but i've seen so many examples of people who are branded as ...ist because people are scared not to be seen to be against them, when in actual fact they're not doing anything wrong.

does this all sound mad to you? maybe i've just run in to some really nasty people! but i do see people biting their tongues when i know that they shouldn't have to. I don't think it's necessarly individuals either, like you said before, the way people talk seeps in to culture and affects how people think....something to do with the 'climate of fear' that blair keeps going on about..i don't think it's all started by terrorists far away, i believe that segregation and misunderstanding often star in the seperated communities themselves. i agree that people should think before they speak, but that last thing i want to see is a society with no open discussion.


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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:A point I over heard once was that the only jokes that shouldn't be told are the jokes that aren't funny.



(braces self for comments utilising irony)

EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1129809415)


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (UK)

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

Recently on UK TV there was a program on that issue, where a hip-hop artist who used the term 'nigger' in his work, and saw nothing wrong with it, visited other blacks who thought the use of the term had negative consequences for their race.




I just picked up that example from above to have something to compare to. I know what nyc pointed out... and never said I didn't agree with the facts, but I disagree with doing it. I don't particularly like double standards.

I agree that usually, when a white person calls a black person "nigger", it is fair enough to assume that the white person will have sufficient knowledge to realise it will come across as an insult. And as I said, I have no intention of calling anyone it. But if you're prepared to use an insulting or offending word as a joke between people of a certain background, you shouldn't be surprised if others use it.

Am glad the guy in your tv show saw some sense in the end.


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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 1762
Posted:An example of something I've run into was in my primary school.

There was a girl in the year below me who needed leg braces on both legs and 2 crutches. She was insufferably arrogant.

So, one day I'm standing in the dinner queue, and she walks past me and (deliberately) twats me in the leg with one of her crutches. I think she was in a bad mood for some reason, and just decided to take it out on me shrug. So, I yell, turn round and shout "What the HELL do you think you're doing?". She looks really suprised and shocked, but before she says anything, another girl in the queue behind me shouts "You can't talk to her like that! Stop picking on her!"

Sorry? Excuse me? SHE hit ME with a metal pole.

Of course a teacher comes over, asks the girl on crutches what happened (ignoring me completely) and is told "I don't know, he just started yelling at me when I walked past."

And you know what? I got lines.

"Is it because I'm disabled?"
"No. It's because you're an insufferable censored."


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Tao Star


people using PC to get what they want, not necdesarily by sueing, but through social pressure....making people who are not prejudiced feel as if they have done something wrong by stating their opinion...has no one else ever experienced this? I've been accused of being homophobic by a lesbian who had no idea that i'm not straight, basically because she disagreed with me on a personal level, but it seemed at the time like accusing me of being homophobic would stop the discussion because i would be embarrassed & shocked, and therefore she wouldn't actually have to defend her point any more....



It sounds more to do with bullying than pc.

Maybe there's an extent to which some people are, in some way, fearful of being accused of being discriminatory, to the extent that they will just shut up when it looks like someone else is going to accuse then of it.

And, if that's so, other people will use that to their advantage in a bullying way, because if basically gives them a way to shut other people up in a disagreement.

However, I don't see that as being a problem with pc, as much as a confidence issue with those who are intimidated by such tactics.

If I was debating something, and someone tried that on me, the first thing I'm going to do is explain to them exactly why I'n not racist/homophobic etc.

In this thread alone I've already posted an opinion that, on some issues, the BNP (British Nationalist Party) make some good points; I've thrown in the expression 'arse-bandit' as slang for gays; and I've touched upon the fact that, IMO, there's a fair bit of racism amongst ethnic minorities themselves.

Any one of those could have prompted some people to accuse me of being somewhat un-pc; every one of those I have witnessed the fear in others of bringing them up.

But, no one did have a go, presumably because when mentioning them I put them in context- and, if someone did critisise, i wouldn't just shut up and skulk off- I'd defend my use of them.

Written by: sethis
So, one day I'm standing in the dinner queue, and she walks past me and (deliberately) twats me in the leg with one of her crutches. I think she was in a bad mood for some reason, and just decided to take it out on me . So, I yell, turn round and shout "What the HELL do you think you're doing?". She looks really suprised and shocked, but before she says anything, another girl in the queue behind me shouts "You can't talk to her like that! Stop picking on her!"



Again, is this really misuse of pc to the extent that it should reflect on pc at all?

Firstly, in that situation, did you handle it appropriately? Is shouting at someone in public the best way to deal with something like that? Obviously, to casual bystanders who've not witnessed what happened, and who only know that, for no apparent reason, someones just started shouting at a girl on crutches; there's a lot of scope for misinterpretation.

I can well imagine the same thing happening if it was a girl not on crutches, which suggests that the pc element in this wasn't that big a factor.

This is basically a school disagreement where its one pupils word against another- it happens all the time in totally non-pc contexts- I can tell by the tone of your post that you're still really bitter about it; but its something that happed in primary school: every person on this board has had similar injustices- I'm really surprised that you're hanging on to it and that you've basically let it form part of your opinion on use of pc.


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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:well done! we've finally come round full circle and got back to what the original discussion was all about! misuse of PC, the way it's ended up geting out of hand and being used for what it was never intended for. smile

the point i was trying to get to was...how can we change this? why is it that people are so scared of possible being branded un-pc? why is it that with all the common sense that is apperntly around in the world, some people still cannot tell the difference between what is PC, and what is an unfair accusation.

i heard on radio 4 in a discussion about the 'incitement to religious hatred' law (i'm sorry - i can't remember which programme...if i find it i'll post a link), a member of the labour party trying to put across that he thought the law was essentially (at this time) to protect msulims in this country. i thought that was fair enough, in the current climate i think muslims deserve some extra protection from people who don't understand the difference between islam & terrorism (yes...there are actually people like that! frown ). the thing was, he was trying to say it, and everyone could tell what he was trying to say, but he couldn't actually put it in to words, because to single one group out seems to be considered patronising or discriminatory, and you could almost feel the other members of the panel waiting for him to say it so that they could jump on him. Now this man was trying to do a good thing, and yet he was still scared of being branded un-pc. why is this????

how did we get to the point where speaking the truth about something can brand you as racist?


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I don't think I'm distorting what you said. I don't think that telling black kids to get over slavery is any more appropriate than telling jews to get over the holocaust.

Written by: Tao Star

those kids growing up don't have experience of the slave trade & so many other things that have affected our language, and although it's important to know that stuff, well, letting go of them is valid too. i like to think that one day words like that really won't matter, because we know that the places and actions they came from would never be allowed to happen now.




This completely minimizes the past and current struggles of African Americans.

It's VERY easy for those of us who are not of certain cultures to say "Get Over It"...

Again, one must learn both about history and about what's going on today to see the connection.


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Yes, let's go.
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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: Tao Star
i can see the flaws in this post already, it's a very idealistic view & i accept that



i never suggested that we should tell them to get over it...that's exactly what i'm against....that was an extreme view - basically, of course i don't think we should encourage anyone to use these words (INCLUDING within people's own socail groups - black or white) but i don't think that banning them is ever going to move anyone on...i think talking about it openly will do that. i'm not suggesting we all go around calling each other nigger.

anyway, this discussion was never meant to be about that which is why i said you twisted what i said...that wasn't supposed to be the point. i have never condoned the use of those words.

i don't agree with racist insults being hurled around ok? i'd just rather talk about things than have people ban words that at the end of the day have different connotations for people anyway. it's the people that use them in a derogatory way that is the problem, not the words themselves. i'm not making light of anyone's history here....

that's my last word on that subject, this wasn't the point of this thread, to be honest, i don't really think it's a debatable point that racism exists and is a terrible thing.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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