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pre
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

member


Total posts: 161
Posted:Im a little behind on my juggling vocab what does this term "site swap" mean im not new to juggling or anything but I feel kind of dumb not knowing

juggle why can't they make him juggle 5

EDITED_BY: pre (1129512902)


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:*will ask cole to sift the juggling thread for an explanation*

smile


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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hexagonic


hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1687
Posted:Ok. Cole, can you help this poor man out? We all know you are by far the most qualified man for the job! hug

ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:*puts his Coleman disguise on*

Written by: UCOF
Me, myself and I have only recently understood the numbers.

0 = empty hand
1 = pass straight along the horizontal from one hand to the other
2 = a small throw up whichy lands in teh same hand
3 = a throw at normal height from one hand to the other (like the thow in a normal cascade)
4 = a higher throw which lands in the same hand you threw with
5 = higher than a 3
6 = higher than a 4
7 = higher than a 5

Basically what no one told me... is that all the even numbers...stay in the same hand when you throw ...whereas odd numbers change hands.

Ive been waiting to see who would be the first person to do their definition of siteswap on this site for a very long time now...guess it is me then.

so the siteswap code for a normal cascade is 333
however... the siteswap for mills mess is also 333

the numbers only represent how high the balls go, not he position of your hands or where to throw the objects.

When you see a long list of numbers... the first number is always thrown with the right hand.

um..

multiplexes(throwing and/or catching 2 or more balls at eh same time) are done in square brackets such as [6x,4].
and the x there menas that the ball crosses over...which confuses me I always thought that even numbers stayed int ehsame hand.

Perhaps Coleman or Uber Seal or Bluecat could fill in anythign ive missed...





Written by: Coleman
there's a few anomolies there jon...

the numbers actually represent how long it is before that ball is thrown again - the throw heights are an analogy of this.

a 3 is thrown and has three beats to wait before it is thrown again.

therefore for any trick we can write the pattern repeatedly and follow the path of each individual ball.
if no balls need to be thrown at the same time (ignoring multiplexes at the moment), then the siteswap is juggleable.

example below picking each of the three balls in turn and seeing where they go in the pattern:

531531531...
5315315...
531531...

so as there are no balls landing in the same hand at the same time, we know 531531531531... is a valid siteswap.

we write siteswaps as the shortest repeatable sequence: so 531531531... becomes just '531'; the 3 ball cascade is just '3'.

multiplexes are written in square brackets (with no comma's) like this: 7121[75]1

you should ignore numbers with crosses as they are only used in sync siteswap which has different rules to async ('vanilla') siteswap.

you can start with your right hand or your left hand, as long as you alternate r-l-r-l-r-l-r-l... for the entire siteswap sequence.


like you said though jon, the best thing about them is they let you do what you like with hand position, catch type, catch position and so on, making siteswaps very versatile for creating interesting pattern variations.


what i have discovered recently is that you can play around with the heights of the throws, the heights of your catches and the dwell time (how long you hold onto a ball) to mess around with your siteswap patterns too.

its why the rhythm of 441 with the 1 btb is so different - throwing high 4's while having a much longer dwell time on the 1 ball makes the pattern fit perfectly and gives you the extra time you need to do the 1 in a difficult position.



biggrin


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T&B
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol

Total posts: 607
Posted:Written by:
0 = empty hand
1 = pass straight along the horizontal from one hand to the other
2 = a small throw up whichy lands in teh same hand
3 = a throw at normal height from one hand to the other (like the thow in a normal cascade)
4 = a higher throw which lands in the same hand you threw with
5 = higher than a 3
6 = higher than a 4
7 = higher than a 5




or a more general way of putting thing:
each throw is a beat, normaly you juggle left hand throw, right hand throw, left hand... the numbers in the siteswap are how many beats the ball stays in the air for e.g. 441 means your first throw stay in the air for 4 beat second throw for four beat and third of 1 beat then you go back to the beginning. from his you can see all even height throws go to the same hand all odd height throws go to the oppsite hand. also cos of the way graivity works the height to proporsal to the square of the number e.g. a 7 has to be thrown 49 times higher then a 1.


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:confused

"a 7 has to be thrown 49 times higher then a 1."

umm


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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:its true! go and measure it!

wink


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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hexagonic


hexagonic

Clubbles Jugs
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 1687
Posted:*coughs* censored

ah wah wah wah a wah wah

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:wink


it is, of course, bullsh!t, mr tim. technically true, perhaps, but totally incorrect int erms of real juggling:

in 534, my 4s are about 2 feet high.
in 423 my 4s are about 4 feet high. my seven ball juggling is about 8 feet high(from hands) but my 7s in 7531 are massive. it's all relative to the trick you are doing, and often to how fast your hands can move.


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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pre
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

member


Total posts: 161
Posted:your definition is most appreciated saw a video of CJ smith doing s 7 ball site swap and I wasn't quite sure what it was but now I know thank you

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T&B
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

T&B

Me
Location: London/Bristol

Total posts: 607
Posted:humm I don't think it's that much bullsh!t if u're 7's are 8ft high then that would make your 1's just under 2inchs which doesn't sound that far off to me.

of course there are other factors such as air resistance and more importantly dwell time that can make a hell of alot of difference to the heigh you acturlly to throw.

531 is a classic example of people using dwell time to 'fake' the hights espshally if you're just learning the trick. If you juggled at a constant rate your 5's would have to be almost 3times higher then your 3's but most people throw the 5 and 3 much closer together so the 5's are normally ownly twice the hight of the 3's

the other thing which hasn't really be explained is scyn siteswaps (both hands thowing at the same time), because your hands can still only throw at the same rate but are throwing together you say that you only throw on the even beat (this isn't strickly nessarly but means the throw heights are roughly the same as normal siteswaps). cos you can throw at different heights with each hand you need two numbers per beat and to stop confusion with multiplexs you put them in normal brackect e.g. (4,4) is 4 ball sycn. The only other thing is if you want it show a throw going from one hand to the other you put a x before it e.g. (4,4) (x4,0) (4,4) (0,x4) is three ball coloums (or one up two up) but most people only write the first half cos they're lazy smile


Maybe I should change this too something abit nicer, humm no I still think your all Ccensoredt

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:*stands next to tim and nods lots*


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Megafish
BRONZE Member since Jun 2004

lurking...
Location: Faversham UK

Total posts: 208
Posted:/* stands behind Cole and T&B, pulls silly face then nods */

This siteswappy stuff is most complicatedsome yes/no?
Theres tons of great advice on siteswap over on jugglingdb.com.

Best advice i can offer is to do some searching there, then check out www.siteswap.net and have a play with the applet for a bit.

summary so far

async (vanilla) siteswap --> Odd throws cross, evens return to the hand which threw them, 2s are held, and 0s just arn't there. Throw height indicates the amount of
"Beats" the ball is in the air for (NOT Height or Time), the ball is thrown on the first beat then in the air for the remainder of its beat life, hence in a three ball cascade the balls are in the air for 2 beats; this all gets a bit crazy when 1s start having no beats, and 0s have -1 beats (how crazy is that?)

sync siteswaps --> very silly indeed, type in (2x,4)(4,2x) on a simulator, thats how silly sync siteswaps are.

MMSTD siteswaps --> No-one seems to have said anything about these yet, but they're very silly indeed. Not recommended for extended use infront of people with heart conditions or anyone called julian:-)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:3 3 3 5p 3 4p | 5p 3 4p 3 3 3

Let's not forget passing siteswaps...


Willy - is bad for your health...

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Megafish
BRONZE Member since Jun 2004

lurking...
Location: Faversham UK

Total posts: 208
Posted:ooh ooh ooh, passing siteswaps, they're really really silly....

wow, imagine doing Mill's mess passing siteswap siteswap;-( that would just be really really silly.

I got jongl to run a 4 ball backcross mills mess earlier, that looked quite silly as well:-)


Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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Megafish
BRONZE Member since Jun 2004

lurking...
Location: Faversham UK

Total posts: 208
Posted:wow, did i kill this thread or was it dead when i got here:-)

Juggling isn't useless, It just isn't useful.

Neural Coding is Idiosyncratic:-)

'Do you like dry cerial? Hope so because we've drunk your milk. Yours Sincerely, Your Neighbourhood Milk Thief'

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:Written by: Megafish

ooh ooh ooh, passing siteswaps, they're really really silly....

wow, imagine doing Mill's mess passing siteswap siteswap;-( that would just be really really silly.

I got jongl to run a 4 ball backcross mills mess earlier, that looked quite silly as well:-)



There's a video (almost No Pirouettes) which has mills mess passing, it looks chaotic as hell.


Willy - is bad for your health...

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:siteswap is a trap. hearno/see no/ speak no. i refuse to accept the existance of anything so numerical.

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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