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Page: 1234
bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:We have bigger houses but smaller families;
more conveniences, but less time.
We have more degrees, but less sense;
more knowledge, but less judgement;
more medicines but less healthiness.
We've been all the way to the moon and back,
but we have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbours.
We have built more computers to hold more information,
to produce more copies than ever,
but we have less communication.
We have become long on quantity,
but short on quality.
These are times of fast foods but slow digestion.
Tall man but short character;
steep profits but shallow relationships.
It is a time when there is much in the window,
but nothing in the room.


the Dalai Lama


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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newgabe
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali

Total posts: 4030
Posted:Hmm

Well I think this is a great discussion point, but I doubt it was written by HH Dalai lama. There's always stuff wacking around the internet attributed to him that sounds nothing at all like what he does write. Not even necessarily reflecting his Buddhist worldview.



Reminds me of that other back of loo door classic: the piece supposedly from

Nelson Mandela's Inaugural Speech (1994) that was actually published by Marianne Williamson in Return To Love (1992)



"Our deepest fear

is not that we are inadequate.



Our deepest fear is that we are

powerful beyond measure" etc etc



I mean, it's a nice piece of writing by a woman I admire. But I can hardly imagine how or why it got mixed up to be anything to do with Nelson Mandela. Can you honestly imagine a senior and solemn SA statesman being made President after decades of exile and deep contemplation saying the words:



"We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant,

gorgeous, talented and fabulous?"



ubbloco ubblol


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

think back to the industrial revolution or somthing - people in this country were utterly miserable, troddon on, poor, no vote. it was rubbish!




So, tell me again how many people are starving to death in Africa as a direct result of people not giving a flying censored about their situation?

If you keep a dish/bowl with loose change in it, then you're in the top 8% of the worlds wealthy.

As far as I'm aware, the fact that the AIDs epidemic in Sub-Saharan Africa has reached genocidal proportions and there is *no* co-ordinated response from other countries, means that people don't care about anything if it doesn't directly affect them.


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: Tao Star


think back to the industrial revolution or somthing - people in this country were utterly miserable, troddon on, poor, no vote. it was rubbish!



personally, i know a lot of fulfilled and happy people, even poor ones! health is better, and people are even turning back to more natural ways of living whilst keeping the benefits of living in the modern world.



The industrial revolution is hardly representative of a different way of life in the past- it's not like the type of life humans had 4000 years ago, is it? That's what I'm talking about. The industrial revolution was crap, the middle ages was crap for us as a species. The roman empire was horrible. Civilisation doesn't work in that sort of scale. That's my point.



And the returning to a natural way of living thing - not in any real sense, and certainly not a large percentage of the population we're talking about here. More people may be doing it, but then there are a vast amount more people in the world.



Besides, with the planet this overpopulated I don't believe people should be retaining the "benefits" of the modern world in a return to nature. Again, that's not the return to nature I'm talking about.



Look at the state of the planet and tell me you're happy with it. Huge deforestation. Mass extinction of thousands and thousands of animal and plant species. Massive pollutions of the oceans, atmosphere and a waste storage problem which is so short-sighted it's painful. Religious wars (obviously no new thing, but in a world where we pride ourselves on our progress this is truly laughable). Increased spending on military concerns and weapons research. Biological weapons research. Nuclear arms. As Sethis points out, huge differences in the distribution of weath. Hell, a system which prizes wealth as opposed to people looking after themselves, their families or in small communities rather than depending on people thousands of miles away for aid because of the decisions of corrupt, greedy human beings. To name but a tiny fraction of all that's wrong because of the way humn beings have chosen to live their lives in the past few millenia, and particularly since the industrial revolution (which just meant we could do all the things which are bad for the planet at a more advanced rate).



I've not got much to say because I'm no better than anyone else, and I can't really put it into words because it's more of a feeling. But I think people who are happy with the modern order are totally deluding themselves that it's right for the planet, or right to think of "life" in these terms. Read the news.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)

Were things better in the past or is it simply a myth of the 'good old days'. I think the world is getting better. From my grandfather's generation came the second world war. From my mother's came the Vietnam war. Today we have the Iraq war. Although all of them are an outrage against mankind the severity of wars are decreasing. Likewise tolerance and equality are increasing. A few decades ago homosexual's, foriengers or anyone who is different would be routinely ostracised from society. As for communication, all down history there have been people that just haven't bothered. Things are certainly far from perfect but they are better than ever before. Now is not the time to stop striving for improvements with every fiber of own being but I think it cheapens the accomplishments of good men and women working for others, for emancipations, for peace, to say that everything has gotten worse.



It's somethat that's very hard to judge. I don't know what life was like before i was born, and even if I had been alive for the last hundred years, i couldn't rely on my memory to compare life now, because chances are it'd be very distorted and most likely nostalgic.
There has been a huge change with some things getting better and some getting worse.

Statistics are probably a good way to give an indication, for example, suicide rates ARE on the increase. Some statistics give the impression that the quality of life is on the increase, like GDP per capita, and life expectancy, but these things aren't necessarily related to happiness....


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

ooooh, really? is he making a public appearence?



Usher Hall Public Event: In Conversation on Ethics for The New Millennium

The Edinburgh Interfaith Association and The City of Edinburgh Council are delighted to announce a public event at the Edinburgh Usher Hall during His Holinesss short stay. At this event His Holiness The Dalai Lama will be in conversation with Prof. Sheila MacLean of Glasgow University with Richard Holloway chairing.

Event: Conversation on Ethics for the New Millennium
His Holiness The Dalai Lama, Prof. Sheila MacLean and Richard Holloway

Date: Saturday 19th November, 10.00am 11.45am
Venue: Edinburgh Usher Hall
Box Office: 0131 228 1155
Tickets: 14.00


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:hug

Thanks for posting Rob biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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dream
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

dream

currently mending
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 493
Posted:The idea of a 'golden age' isn't something new... You can trace it back all the way through history. Which I really cant be arsed to do here and now. Societies have always had problems and ours is no different. However, we have a (far from perfect) democratic system, a welfare state (though in many ways it is being dismantled), no slavery, no child labour, no death penalty, and a non-hierarchial global communications system (the internet) which lets you freely express your views among other things which mean you should look to continue this legacy of social improvement rather than eulogize a far from perfect past.

'The industrial revolution is hardly representative of a different way of life in the past'

The industrial revolution is heralded as the transition from feudalism, a largely rural based lifestyle based on subsistance farming, into modernism, and urban, manufacturing based societies. The last couple of decades have seen what many critical theorists have seen as the transition from modernism, with its emphasis on the creation of material mass produced factory goods into postmodernism, societies in which production is in many ways superceded by a flow of images of information (hence this epoch also being referred to as the Information Age (Manovich, Kellner et al) and the Society of the Spectacle (Debord, Baudrillard etc)) In the same way that the earlier paradigm shift retained the basic needs fulfilled by the previous system (food production) and built on it (through the mass manufacture of goods as diverse as clocks, televisions, bicycles and bricks) as a foundation, this shift sees a shift based on images and ideas (not i want trainers, but I want nike trainers... brand synergy blah blah blah... equally its not a case of making the image/product you want, but a case of locating it within the existing societal body of knowledge)

Modern advances in technology have created massive alterations to the pace and scale of life (see Marshall McLuhan) but the ways in which we choose to apply these technologies will depend on human agency (Raymond Williams, Douglas Kellner and many others... there's been a debate regarding technological determinism and human agency raging in media studies for about forty years now... I take something from both arguments, as totalities neither quite works, as is often the case with binary oppositions... which can largely (but not completely) be blamed on the influences of monothesism in contemporary westen culture).

These technologies hold the potential to cure many of the maladies from which society currently suffers (think sustainable technologies, decentralised and democratic systems of collective knowledge, advances in medicene etc). They also hold the potential to create increasingly repressive systems of control (ideological and physical... increasing corporate global domination along with its neoliberal profit driven philosophy, Son of Star Wars, etc) While my examples are largely of a global nature there are equally applicable local variants (which I'm guessing differ for most us... postmodern network based community and all). So if you dont like your world get off your butt and go change it. If you don't some profit seeking, minority marginalising, polluting censored will.

www.indymedia.org

www.zmag.org

www.adbusters.org

http://www.corpwatch.org
br>
http://www.caat.org.uk
br>
http://www.peopleandplanet.net
br>
and get involved in some local activism.

(sorry for longwinded academicised rant)


hug


He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Nietzsche

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: nearly_all_gone

Look at the state of the planet and tell me you're happy with it.



i say i was happy with it, or that it doesn't need working for...all i'm saying is there have been problems all the way through history.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I've said it before and I'll say it again...

I would MUCH rather live in today's world than any other time in history.

I think if you really looked at the life of an average man X years ago (not King or Queen X... but Joe X), you'd find out how lucky you are to be living in today's world. And I think it would get better in the future...

I do not think that there has ever been an age where more people are more comfortable and have better qualties of life than today.

ESPECIALLY everyone here.

And maybe that's a bigger issue.

Do any of us in Western Civilization in 2005 really have any idea of how lucky we are?

There are millions of people in history that would have given anything to be in any of our shoes with the opportunities and luxuries that we all have.

I try really hard to remember that on a daily basis but it's difficult to comprehend.

[I'm not willing to nickel and dime everyone on every point on this one. Obviously there will be exceptions... but if you really study particular daily life of particular times in history (which we rarely focus on) it becomes pretty impressive how good we've got it. I also think there's a higher ratio of "haves" to "have nots".. even if that ratio is 1:10000 vs 1:1000000... and both the "haves" and "have nots" are better off than they were respectively...]

Or maybe I'm just the luckiest guy in the planet.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:His eminence the 14th dalai llama proposes that before we can ever hope of transforming the world, we must first transform the self, after all, it is with the self that we will judge the changes taking place.

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Well said bender.......

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:*Applauds Dream*

And I understood all of that too, which is a good thing because I'm going to take a Globalisation module in my Sociology course next term... smile


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:Written by: sethis
]As far as I'm aware, the fact that the AIDs epidemic in Sub-Saharan Africa has reached genocidal proportions and there is *no* co-ordinated response from other countries, means that people don't care about anything if it doesn't directly affect them.




Written by: nearly all gone
Look at the state of the planet and tell me you're happy with it



To BOTH of you........

Without modern technology and it's evil ways, without the corrupt and horrendous materialism, destructive advancements and constant push for the 'bigger, better, faster' way of life, you would not be able to look at the world.

You'd only be able to look out of your window.
And be oblivious to all the tragic things that happen far away.

Look at the ongoing effort put in by thousands of volunteers, charities, aid workers etc...... the money poured into funds for natural disasters that we wouldn't ever know about.

Granted we have caused many problems. I am not even going to attempt to justify them. But the awareness we have now is so massive and overwhelming, and the help this awareness has brought shouldn't be forgotten. Sure, there's massive room for improvement and I think we should push as hard as we can towards it, but don't discount the steps we have already made, or immediately see them in a bad light without stopping to think of the benefits they've brought AS WELL as the problems.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:ok that written before dream's post, and posted when I logged on this morning confused

Dream's last paragraphy sums up my thought nicely smile


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: Akashla
Though quick to make your own point, you unfortunately fail to grasp the point of the Dalai Lama.

He is not offering points for discussion, he is noting the paradox in todays society. Of course all elements can be agreed with or disagreed with, its the idea behind them that is key. But then what would he know, its not like he was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize or anything.

Oh wait...



Oh of course, how silly of me to assume the Dalai Lama might be mistaken about something. After all, he is uniquely qualified in this matter due to his thousands of years of experience in the job, through various reincarnations.

oh wait...


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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TinklePants
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

TinklePants

Clique Infiltrator, Cunning Linguist and Master Debator
Location: Edinburgh burgh burrrrrr

Total posts: 4217
Posted:
Think about wars today and wars hundreds of years ago,
These days we have weapons of mass destruction, but in days of olde we were so much more sadistic and stuff - look at medieval battles and that - the carnage and bloodshed was unimaginable! catapulting corpses into castles, the whole medieval torture scene, their weapons - not as easy as a bullet through the head.

The world isn't getting worse - its just we are hearing about atrocities easier due to technological communication.
If anything its getting better, I think.


Always use "so's your face" and "only on Tuesdays" in as many conversations possible

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: fluffy napalm fairy

To BOTH of you........

Without modern technology and it's evil ways, without the corrupt and horrendous materialism, destructive advancements and constant push for the 'bigger, better, faster' way of life, you would not be able to look at the world.

You'd only be able to look out of your window.




I think that's your best point ever. smile

Well, your best political point anyway. hug


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:lol - is that cos it's one you agree with? wink

hug thanks.


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: fluffy napalm fairy


lol - is that cos it's one you agree with? wink







No, it's because it had the bold at the end. I thought that made it more believable.



nana


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:ubblol

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: simian

Written by: Akashla
Though quick to make your own point, you unfortunately fail to grasp the point of the Dalai Lama.

He is not offering points for discussion, he is noting the paradox in todays society. Of course all elements can be agreed with or disagreed with, its the idea behind them that is key. But then what would he know, its not like he was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize or anything.

Oh wait...



Oh of course, how silly of me to assume the Dalai Lama might be mistaken about something. After all, he is uniquely qualified in this matter due to his thousands of years of experience in the job, through various reincarnations.

oh wait...



*falls in love with Simian* ubblove


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:me too. ubblove

monkey...the depndable voice of reason. tongue


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I'd like to second NYC's statement, as Ros, that was an absolutly brilliant point!!

Altho I have no idea when we changed from "we have problems" to "lets compare the past and the present and decide which is better." But that is ever the way of HoP threads.

I may or may not agree with his reasons wink


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: Kyrian
Altho I have no idea when we changed from "we have problems" to "lets compare the past and the present and decide which is better."



confused

To what was The Lama referring to with the words "more" and "less", if not the past?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:to differing societies perhaps?

*watches thread like overlord, interjecting only to argue with simian*


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I guess I see your point!

But I took it this way:

We have bigger houses but smaller families;
-altho we now have bigger houses (whether thats bad or good: sept argument) we're not making much use of them, or perhpas not letting our family extend outside of them...

more conveniences, but less time.
-despite all of our time saving devices, we still havn't learned to make time for important things, and we're less likely to have time to rest than we should be

We have more degrees, but less sense
-There's a lot more access to education, but people arn't using it... for all the processes we go thru, for all the advantages we have, most of us arn't moving forward in learning...

I admit upon inspecting it from your angle I should probably have seen it as more of a "lament for the past" but i read it as "a lament that we still havn't learned anything despite all the progress certain individuals have made"

my bad? maybe. cheers.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:you can always find sad stuff. It's the happy stuff we should write about smile

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:biggrin

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:I agree, and I disgaree. We do need to write more about happy stuff smile

But writing about sad stuff raises awareness. It helps people brainstorm solutions. It can help put things in perspective. And, sometimes it just helps people heal more.

So writing about both is good. But I agree that there's more to be said for constructively writing about sad stuff. Or at least asking for constructive comments.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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bluecat


bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere

Total posts: 5300
Posted:i actually wanted this thread to be somewhat more like that: finding the solutions to these 'problems', finding good things that have come out of them.

ah well.

and some have.
ta

biggrin


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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