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inpsydout
member
Location: kent/brum, uk
Member Since: 6th Oct 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:hi. I work for a company called Kent Circus School who for the past 15 years have been going around Kent doing circus skills workshops. We are currently developing a key stage 2 curriculum for circus skills (juggling, diablo, devil stick) and this will be piolted on our youth circus. It is based on levels, do a certain number of tricks and get a certificate for level 1 smile etc. It is not a grading system, just something to aim for, also the levels cannot just be learnt in five minutes, they take dedication and practice. We don't teach poi as standard at the moment but may do someday and it has come to me to write the poi moves. I am not entering into a debate as to whether or not poi should be learnt through a structured system or "free learning" (which is what im sure alot of us have done), save that for another thread.
It is obvious that before learning a 5beat weave you need to learn a 3beat weave first, therefore some moves should probably be learnt before others: this is where the debate starts!
(although I'm not stopping anyone learnigna 5beat before a 3beat-prove me wrong! wink)
I thought if I post what I have come up with then other peoples feedback can help modify the moves and structure. I dont want this to be my own but a more of a collective effort from the HOP community. here goes (deep breath)

PT= parrallel time
FT=follow time

Level 1

Both hands forwards (FT and PT)
Both hands backwards (FT and PT)
Carries from forwards to backwards
Carries from backwards to forwards
Forwards weave
Backwards weave
Windmill
Butterfly (Forwards and Backwards)
BTH buttefly (at the same time)
BTH butterfly (hands alternating)

Level 2

Turning from forwards weave to backwards weave
Waist wraps (forwards and backwards)
Hip reels (PT and FT)
Shoulder reels (PT and FT)
Basic lock-outs (flowers)
TTN (forwards and backwards)
Opposite shoulder reels
Opposite hip reels
Basic stalls from the butterfly
The Corkscrew
Giant weave
Giant windmill
Buzzsaw (forwards and backwards)
The Fountain

Level 3

Forwards 5beat weave (wrists facing up and curled round)
Backwards 5beat weave (wrists facing up and curled round)
4 beat TTN (forwards and backwards)
BTB weave (forwards and backwards)
Basic arm wraps
Standard airwrap in the wall plane (from clockwise and anticlockwise)
Simultaneous wrist wraps
Simultaneous bicep wraps
Thigh wraps
Calf wraps
Stalling one up, one down
Basic atoms
The weave with one arm straight
Thru-wraps in the weave, off the arms (forwards and backwards)
4 beat windmills
Under the leg

Level 4 (this is where the silliness begins!)

Isolations
-isolated buzzsaw
-isolated forwards weave
-isolated backwards weave
-isolated backwards TTN
Stalling the weave
4-beat hyperloop (any direction)
Buzzsaw weave
Airwraps to wrist stalls
Thows and catches
One tie-up in backwards TTN
BTB waist wraps
BTB TTN (both ways!)
Butterfly weave
Pirouettes with arms at opposites
Pirouettes with arms at opposites with flowers
Under alternating legs for four consecutive beats (from TTN) Anti spin flowers (one hand only)
Stalling one up, one down BTB
Grabbing one poi in TTN
Atomic weave, forwards and backwards

Level 5 (this is a little ridiculous) - i can't do a lot of it

4-beat hyperloops from forwards weave, both ways
4-beat hyperloops from backwards weave, both ways
Inverted airwraps
Extra beats in airwraps/hyperloops
2-beat hyperloops from forwards 5beat weave (all four ways)
Under the leg airwraps
Butterfly hyperloops (butterfloops I believe??)
Isolated waist wraps
Isolated shoulder reels
Isolated alternating carries
Antispin forwards weave
Antispin backwards weave
Antispin flowers, both hands forwards in FT
Antispin flowers, both hands backwards in FT
Simultaneous wrist wraps in the buzzsaw
Simultaneous wrist wraps BTB
Simultaneous wrist wraps BTH
Continuous barrell roles forwards and backwards
Whip catches
7-beat weave forwards and backwards
6-beat backwards TTN (hands must be in FT for this to work)

Level 6??? ubbloco

I am aware that this list ignores both style and largely transitions and levels 5 is probably focused more on my own personal goals. I know very little about atoms or throws and catches for that matterwhich is why they hardly feature.
have i missed anything fundamental?
what moves need to switch levels?

feedback on how to make this better would be greatly appreciated. matt smile


i cdnoult blveiee taht i cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht i was rdanieg!

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LazyAngel
LazyAngel

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Cambridge UK
Member Since: 29th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2895
Posted:perhaps a provision for style, grace and movement would be nice?

maybe put basic longarm moves in level one as a preparation for flowers

ummm...

ask arashi?


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animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:Hmmm...

I can't do some of the moves in level three, but am able to do some of the moves in levels four and five...

Classing moves as different levels isn't going to be easy. Every person is different. For example, I find fwd antispin weave a lot easier than a 4bt Windmill. But that's just me.

And what's an inverted airwrap?


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted:what about buzz saw fountains? wink

maybe stalls and wraps a bit earlier as stalls are useful for transitions as are wraps and both are fairly simple to learn but give some beautiful effects


back

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Just a wee suggestion...

but perhaps you could reduce the number of moves in every level to make sure the students get the set moves really well - good timing, planes, movement etc - just to make sure they aren't racing through and trying to learn the moves alone?


Hmmm... yep, maybe Arashi, or PoiBoxII will add their opinions? biggrin


Getting to the other side smile

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Muskelunge
Muskelunge

member
Location: Chicago
Member Since: 6th Oct 2005
Total posts: 55
Posted:Here's my constructive criticism:
Do turning between weaves in level one.
Do butterfly reels in level one, and behind-the-head stuff in level two.
Five-beat wave in level two (although backwards may wait for level three)
Buzzsaws and fountains shouldn't be learned until level three, because you don't do anything else with them until level four.
Throws and catches should probably be moved up to level three.
Past these things, I have very little idea about what any of those moves are.
Hope this helps!


The Guide is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:That's a pretty good way to separate it up.

I'd consider splitting it into families tho, weave, butterfly, tangles, throws and so on.

So you have levels within families. This is because people tend to prefer doing a particular family and get way up through the levels. That's why you'll find people who can do stuff in level 4 but not some level 2 things.

Also there's no reason why you can't teach a complete noob throws and tangles first before doing any reels. I mean a club juggler noob doesn't start with 2 clubs, learn a 5 beat weave then progress to juggling 3 clubs.

Just remember that hhow ever you divide it up it's completely arbitry. It's only useful in the context you're using it. So decide what you want to achieve by separating it all before you separate it. Otherwise just group it together.

My and oli were joking the other day saying that you could teach someone poi by saying there are 3 simple rules to poi:

rule 1: the poi should only stay in their plane for a maximum of 3 beats before changing 90 degrees

rule 2: the poi handle should not be in your hands for about 25% of the time

rule 3: the poi should be in a tangled state for about 25% of the time

That's essentially what i've been aiming at with my freestyling recently, it's pretty funny.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Durbs
Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:On a small technicality - I think Level 1 moves "BTH Butterfly" are actually "OTH Buttefly" (Over-the-head) unless you're keeping the hands behind the head for more than one beat...

I'd also scrap level 5 completely allowing for people to discover their own moves (e.g what happens if I combine an isolation with an airwrap?) and introduce more movement theory, plane control and performance guidlines - as there's few things less appealing to the eye than a highly technical spinner who can't perform for poo smile


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'd recommend that you have to be able to do like 12 out of 15 things, because there's some things that just won't work for some people even though they're fine with the rest. For example, I just can't get btb weaves. No problems with butterflies, but just can't get the weave there. Now I imagine that if I had everything for one level except for 1 or 2 things, I'd get really frustrated...

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inpsydout
member
Location: kent/brum, uk
Member Since: 6th Oct 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:thanks for the feedback guys, its helped loads!
lectue theatre c - an inverted airwarp (as i see it) is rather than the poi being tugged towards you push them away, try getting someone to stand in front of you when you do an airwrap and get them to rest their hands on top of yours, they will be doing the inverted version.

i know theres a rather alot of moves in each level but this partly to correspond with the difficulty of the other toys (juggling etc) as basic poi moves can be learnt much faster than basic juggling tricks. Birgit, I like the idea of not having to complete the level but just the majority. OTH butterfly makes more sense than what i wrote spank level 5 was more for my own amusement than actually a stated level, anyone who gets that far has to really want to learn and needs more guidance than teaching. I have started to split the moves into families but only in the later levels, ill try and doit for the earlier ones a bit better.

im still of the opnion that style and grace cannot be really be taught in a structured form. When I get enough feedback ill redo the whole thing to try and accommodate for the general consensus. i expect very few people that i am teaching to work through the levels one by one, but to generally use it as skeleton guide of 'what shall i try and teach them next that would benifit them the most'. thanks again.matt smile


i cdnoult blveiee taht i cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht i was rdanieg!

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Azrelle_
Azrelle_

member
Location: Glasgow-ish
Member Since: 1st Oct 2005
Total posts: 39
Posted:I agree with something said

turning from forward to backward weave should be level one. I have found when teaching the backwards weave it's easy to get someone to do a forwards then turn to get started on how backwards feels


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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Wow, I totally learned most of these out of order.

ubblol


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:That's an impressive list of moves, just how long are these courses going to run? You don't want to overwhelm your students. I'd scrap levels 4 and 5 or just introduce the concepts and leave it at that.

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:I think reels should be in lvl 1-2 there are tons of reels and combinations of moves that can just be added together to make massive combos out of normally simple moves.



Piroetts and airplanes should be in lvl 16!

EDITED_BY: Dragon7 (1128730321)


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thelost
thelost

mmm...i feel all warm and fuzzy... 'no dude, that's your hair on fire'
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 20th Aug 2005
Total posts: 355
Posted:Just looking at the list and I picked out that I have been learning really diverse stuff that you have classed as higher like whip catches and stuff even though I don't know all the other stuff in between. I just see people do stuff and I go 'wow, i wanna learn how to do that'... so i do tongue

Having a structured program is a good idea for basic tricks (all my lessons were pretty much taken from this site and then just expanded from what i saw from others).
Classing tricks in levels is hard, since some people will always find something easier/harder than others.
Hell, I can't get my head around some tricks cos i can only do certain ones in just one direction.

I also think that learning in families of tricks is a pretty good idea, as you're learning similar tricks which may be easier to build on, but that may cause problems in that it might become a little more monotonous for the student (basically what I said in the last paragraph can be ignored as you've already sorted your levels into different families biggrin)


It's better to burn out than to fade away

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animatEd
animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK
Member Since: 31st Aug 2004
Total posts: 3540
Posted:Written by: inpsydout

im still of the opnion that style and grace cannot be really be taught in a structured form.



There's no point putting a move into a performance that looks poorly done.

Yes, it's hard to teach someone a particular style, because everyone is different, but you'll find that people will learn moves along the way and put them into their own style.

IMO, if you're teaching something, you have to teach people to do it well.

smile


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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inpsydout
member
Location: kent/brum, uk
Member Since: 6th Oct 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:when isay that style and grace cant be taught in a structured from what i mean is you cannot write it doen in a list as i have done with the moves, but it is something that is learnt along the way. i think you have to suggest ways in which people can enhance their style but not always expect them to follow your suggestions, rather to look at them as new possibilities so that they can explore their own style.

I always found that the best way to learn about stlye is to watch other spinners. smile


i cdnoult blveiee taht i cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht i was rdanieg!

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pricklyleaf
pricklyleaf

with added berries
Location: Manchester
Member Since: 7th Mar 2005
Total posts: 1365
Posted:I'd say be very careful in teaching in this method, as it will mean the students will all focus in getting all the moves right, and become moves orrientated, and you might end up with a class full of people who don't dance or move with the poi. I think it would be a bad idea of presenting students with the list, maybe just keeping it for your own reference, maybe only giving it to them at the end of a level as a checklist. I think you will have to be very disiplined in getting the students to dance and transition, and make sure you emphasise these points when teaching. I understand you need this list for what you are doing, but I think it would be incredibly unproductive to give newbies, who know very little about poi, a big long list of moves to learn, as they will think that this is all their is to it.

Live like there is no tomorrow,
dance like nobody is watching
and hula hoop like wiggling will save the world.

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

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VampyricAcid
VampyricAcid

veteran
Location: My House
Member Since: 27th Jun 2005
Total posts: 1286
Posted:Written by: Lecture_Theatre_C

Written by: inpsydout

im still of the opnion that style and grace cannot be really be taught in a structured form.



There's no point putting a move into a performance that looks poorly done.

Yes, it's hard to teach someone a particular style, because everyone is different, but you'll find that people will learn moves along the way and put them into their own style.

IMO, if you're teaching something, you have to teach people to do it well.

smile



then maybe at the end of setion 3, a performance could be held (for parents perhaps) so they know the moves from 1 and 2 well, and learnt 3 recently, so there are wide repatoir to use


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Suibom
Suibom

addict
Location: Oregon, USA
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2005
Total posts: 577
Posted:Written by: pricklyleaf

I'd say be very careful in teaching in this method, as it will mean the students will all focus in getting all the moves right, and become moves orrientated, and you might end up with a class full of people who don't dance or move with the poi. I think it would be a bad idea of presenting students with the list, maybe just keeping it for your own reference, maybe only giving it to them at the end of a level as a checklist. I think you will have to be very disiplined in getting the students to dance and transition, and make sure you emphasise these points when teaching. I understand you need this list for what you are doing, but I think it would be incredibly unproductive to give newbies, who know very little about poi, a big long list of moves to learn, as they will think that this is all their is to it.



I was thinkin bout this thread yesterday and was thinking pretty much along the same lines. I think it would be good, as a closing to Introduction to Poi Level 2 to have the last lesson be "Basic Choreography". Taking the moves from Level 1 and Level 2 and having the students map them out into a continuous flow. Not a regimented thing, just letting the students work out linking the various moves and movements so they can bounce ideas off each other on how to move around while spinning. This could also lead into Vampiricacid's suggestion of a performance at the end of level 3.


Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.

Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"

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jaero
jaero

your new best enemy
Location: over the river, through the wo...
Member Since: 6th Jun 2004
Total posts: 246
Posted:this is off topic, but on topic and probably already said...I'm not sure about how I feel about the levels. transitions between the families, in my oppinion, is the most important thing in any performance. there is 100 ways of going from a butterfly to a weave to anything else and then again but vice versa. and the ability to tie everything together will define a swingers style, as well as their skill level. imagine someone can do a 7 beat weave, but they can't transition out of it. in fact, they can't get into a butterfly without stopping the poi all together. but they can still do a butterfly, would they be classified as a level 5 swinger over a person who can do a weave, a butterfly, and a windmill, and that's all. but they can switch from one to the other on the drop of a hat? maybe I'm just biased because I've put so much time into transitions. and I have probably about 500 different tricks and all but 75 of them are different transitions.

I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.

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Suibom
Suibom

addict
Location: Oregon, USA
Member Since: 2nd Sep 2005
Total posts: 577
Posted:Well, it seems to me like this was an idea to introduce folks to poi. When folks take classes about something, they usually like regimentation and a sense of accomplishment (hence, levels and structure). I don't think it would make much sense to judge anyone on a scale like the class is set up, as it's just for teaching purposes. Hell, I value flow over tricks any day. I guess what I'm saying is I think your statement is geared towards looking at things in the wrong vein...

*me brain is confuzzled today.. sorry*


Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.

Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:Written by: Lecture_Theatre_C

Written by: inpsydout

im still of the opnion that style and grace cannot be really be taught in a structured form.



There's no point putting a move into a performance that looks poorly done.

Yes, it's hard to teach someone a particular style, because everyone is different, but you'll find that people will learn moves along the way and put them into their own style.

IMO, if you're teaching something, you have to teach people to do it well.

smile



you can so teach style. not a specific one maybe, but you can teach people how to learn their own style. put the poi down for a bit, get in to the music, look at people's natural movement, and the kind of music they listan to outside of the class.

i've taught a few people from scratch who couldn't dance to save their lives and they mostly ended up looking really individual & funky.


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strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:
I think the first thing to learn is long arm circles, and combo's including Australian crawl and backstroke with turns. Then hip and shoulder reels combined with long arm circles. Then weaves.

Suggest u check out Michal Kahns poi book and Ben Richters or Jillings clubs swinging books. They are very good.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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inpsydout
member
Location: kent/brum, uk
Member Since: 6th Oct 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:thanks for all the feedback, ive got michal kahns book and used it as an inspiration. when i say that you cant teach style what i mean is you can't put it into a list as above but it needs a much more 'hands on' approach, i.e watching someone spin and suggesting what they can do to build on their style, should have made myself a bit clearer, sorry!

i cdnoult blveiee taht i cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht i was rdanieg!

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Callius
newbie

Member Since: 18th Oct 2005
Total posts: 13
Posted:I think you put together a pretty comprehensive list. Though, like it has been said before, it's completely subjective.

Oh... and my girlfriend learned a 4 beat, psuedo-isolated weave before she got the 3 beat down... go figure.


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Atacan(aka muaddip)
Atacan(aka muaddip)

stranger
Location: Seattle / WA / USA
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 18
Posted:Second what Muskelunge said. In addition I would say that waist-wrap should not preceed BTB weave. To my experience and observation waistwrap should follow BTB weaves.

So putting waist-wrap in level 3 can be better.

cheers,


_ __ _
atacan

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:think you're talking about the front half of the waist wrap, the btb part in the full waist wrap is exactly the same as a btb weave, you're just standing side on to it.

So a full waist wrap is a progression on from btb weave forwards and backwards.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Drudwyn
Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni
Member Since: 27th Aug 2005
Total posts: 632
Posted:I don't know, I learnt the waist wrap first... I only just cracked the BTB weave on Monday!

Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:Written by: spherculist

rule 1: the poi should only stay in their plane for a maximum of 3 beats before changing 90 degrees

rule 2: the poi handle should not be in your hands for about 25% of the time

rule 3: the poi should be in a tangled state for about 25% of the time

That's essentially what i've been aiming at with my freestyling recently, it's pretty funny.

m



i'd like to see that smile

cool thread smile


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Me too, smile everything is in place but getting my flow back has taken me all year.

But my box planes are clean, my throws are tight and my tangles are pretty good. I can mix my throws and tangles together pretty well but can't mix it all into boxes too well yet.

Thing is if you taught a newbie that's the way you spin poi, they would have it cracked in 6 months.

A 'Waist Wrap' as far as i know refers to the full waist wrap, ie front half and back half and the back half is harder. They are really useful to teach you how to carry the poi around your body within 1 beat.

As for the order of poi moves, it's not linear. I see it as more of a matrix of possibilities with many paths through it. I learn things like a 5 beat weave, then break it down into each circle. Then you end up with 2 possibilities at any given moment. You either keep a poi spinning in the same place, or you move it somewhere else. The moves we learn are just a means of lubricating familiar paths for your hands to take from place to place (node to node).

Then once you get to grips with that you learn the 'Modifiers'. Like isolations and Long Arm just change the radius and center point of the circle, this effects the timing of the patterns, then you have Twists & Tangles which are essentially the same as weaves and butterflies but the twist or tangle occurs along the length of the poi instead of along the length of your arm. Then there's Plane modifiers like Boxes and Trinity. Throws have the effect of allowing your arms to pass through one another within a pattern.

But like i say the order you learn it all in is pretty much up to you, once you have grasped a few of the fundamentals there's not many prerequisites


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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