Forums > Advanced Poi Moves > Atomcraft: Basic atom theory and positions

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[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
hello everyone!



I wrote this as a birthday present to everyone on the board, so I hope you like it.



sorry its a bit lateinnished but had some trouble uploading the images...



anyway, let the extreame geekery comence!



****************************************************************



basic atom craft



this essay is an attempt to describe clearly the basic movement principles when attempting to spin a stable atomic structure.



:P



i do not wish to get too bogged down in terminology, and therefore have invented my own for the most part. The main reason for this is that atoms are a paradime shift and are nearly impossible to explain in terms of weave ect without serious misunderstanding. instead i will describe the principles with a few invented terms and we can worry about what to call them later.



this is just an overview of the physical possibilities and postures, it is in no way describing any one trick or combination.



I am just a map.



ubbloco



Section I- Very Basic theory



how do we break up the atom into understandable chunks? lets start with the intersection. this is where the two planes of the atom cut each other. this intersection can be horizontal or vertical, or anything in-between but the position relative to the body changes its behaviour.





now, lets split again. what about movement in relation to the intersection?



you can move around the intersection, following the atoms rotational symmetry



or you can move over or across the intersection. these two principles are illustrated in the link below.



the basics





The difference between the horizontal and vertical atom is that the horizontal atom is easily moved over the intersection but not around the intersection. the reverse is true for the vertical atom.









The Atom Diagram



here



This is my atom model, it its useful for describing and thinking about atomic states. note that in these models the body rotates around the atom, but of course this translates directly into moving the atom around the body.



How the planes interact.



any atom can be in one of two states



Mesh



the poi travel in the same direction at the intersection.



Clash



the poi travel in the opposite direction at the intersection.



plane interactions



notice in the diagram of clash one hand is holding the tail of the arrow, behind the intersection, and the other hand is holding the head, next to the arrow.



these two interactions have been called butterfly and weave. but these terms are obsolete, as will bee seen in the next section.



a final set of variables for the model



there are three main variations for the hand positions.



hand positions



thease are basic in the extreame, but they are in fact the minium hand positions you must use to use atom. and its easier to model this way.



so now we can model the atom, we have its intersection, our movement relative to that, the planes interaction to each other and the position of our hands. so! how does it work?







Section II - Basic Application







Movement Around the Intersection (Vertical Atoms)



the vertical atom has two directions this depends on weather you are above or below the intersection, because (i think) you cant change that with vertical atoms.



vertical atoms



as you move around an atom the state changes from mesh to clash with every plane transition, every sector.



As you can see the differences in the directions are that in one the clash crosses and the mesh is open and the reverse is true for the other. atoms do like to balance.



you can transition two planes to stay in the same state, or you can transition 1 plane/hand and change the state. note also how all positions can be brought inside no matter the outside hand positions.





Movement over the Intersection (Horizontal Atoms)





like vertical atoms, horizontal has two directions, and two states, clash and mesh



below is a diagram showing the positions for each direction in the mesh state.



horisontal



note the difference, the vertical atoms go mesh open to mesh open, but horizontal ones go mesh open- inside- mesh crossed. these can all be turned, and an over the head open mesh atom forwards becomes a crossed mesh atom backwards, in other words twist your arms as you turn your body, then bring the atom inside again.







Section III- Conclusions confusions and carry outs



we can see now that atoms only have two directions, around and across the intersection, and these directions encompass both of the states of clash and mesh. I think is may be possible to traverse the intersection in a vertical atom, and likewise for the horizontal. but i haven't managed to model it yet.



Also not so far included in this model is the concept of time, the pois orbits in relation to each other, suffice to say that in mesh the poi may follow any time freely and clash the poi must be same time to pass each other (arashi calls this crane) or otherwise be woven by twisting and untwisting the wrists with the changes of direction. these are not massively theoretically complex but very hard to visualise in the imagination.



changes in direction are odd, although the atom is split into 4 parts, to change direction means to jump two parts at once, and to move one quadrant is to change the state of the atom and not its direction.



hyperloops are still in development within the model, but I am fairly certain that they act by swapping both planes through 90 degrees and thereby crossing the intersection, but maybe not. that's to go home with.



I hope you find this model helpful, by no means have i mapped everything about atoms, for instance half-in half-out positions are possible and unexplored here. It is an attempt to clarify and describe a very muddy and ill defined area. I am only a Map



happy birthday.



T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


MikeIconGOLD Member
Pooh-Bah
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA


Posted:
Well that just goes to show you that even Nick Woolsey can sometimes spin crookedly. smile

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me


TheWibblerGOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand


Posted:
poipendicular flowers, wink

Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.


[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
bad planes does not the atom make....

T wave

p.s. *SHOCK* wow, he's human!

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


garthySILVER Member
old hand
717 posts
Location: Bristol, England


Posted:
This is a great thread. biggrin

Thanks mucly :hug

"**grumble*spuriouswindmills*grumble**" - Coleman
"if poi was only for girls there wouldnt be many good poi spinners...." - Nx


OliveGOLD Member
enthusiast
285 posts
Location: Paris 19e, France


Posted:
brilliant comprehensive stuff smile
I just had my first trials: mostly split-time stuff
gotta work on the same-time
these few trials helped me improve my split-time in general smile

thanks Nx?

StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
Bump....Is anybody else playing with these ?

I have, over the past couple of weeks, and I'm finding them loads of fun. So far I've been unable to actually do anything with atoms in the "clash" orientation. I've been working in hand wraps, thigh wraps, and stalls, and when I find myself in "clash" I usually use this as an excuse to play with box planes. Previous postings on this thread lead me to believe that clash is workable, I just have to figure out how.

I'm finding atoms are fun to walk around with in a zig-zag pattern,and fun to turn with too.

Inspired by a photo on Fire Tom's website finally got the oth horizontal atomic reliable enough to "do" with fire last night. I was a little hesitant, because this is a nasty accident if it goes wrong. ie. the poi collide and land on my face.

Is there such a thing as a 4 bt atom? . I can appreciate how atoms feel more like butterflys than weaves, and I can do a 4 BT BF, however something's telling me that this won't work with atoms.

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
yo,

clash state is doable, you have to weave the poi around eacch other by changing sides (like a normall weave) to stop them clashing. clash is a great way of finding funky new hyperloops too...

as for 4bt.... im not sure, i think you could replicate the movments, but im not sure that the theory carries from butterfly to atom, atoms behave sometimes like buterflies, but not in the normall way of thinking.

in fact, ttn in atom is a clash state, as ttn is efectivly moving two intersecting circles through each other at the point when the poi wont hit, so is weaving in clash state. the diffrence betweeen 2bt and 4bt ttn is which side of the circle the poi is on when you change the intersection.

this probibly translates as 5bt clash atomic weave in atom theory. But dont quote me.

other fun things in atoms are inversions and over the body transitions.

Im having fun just getting them to move all over the place and keep form.

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
oh and while this is a great and huge feild, it is huuuuge, and seems to be taking ages to get anywhere.

should stop practicing 4 clubs and start spinnin poi again ubbidea

T beerchug

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


RovoGOLD Member
(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
544 posts
Location: Austin, TX, USA


Posted:
*bump because this thread is good*

I feel like my brain is about to burst with ideas. ubbrollsmile

So in a true atomic weave are you weaving between two clash states on the left and right side of the body? Spinning same time starting in inside mesh I bounce to a clash state on the right side (crane?) then back into the middle into a form of mesh then bounce the poi outside on the left to a clash state then back into the middle to the same inside mesh I began with. Would that be an atomic weave?

Is crane the way you have to move your hands when in a same time clash state to keep the poi from tangling?

I find that it is possible to be in the clash state in split time but only for one beat (less then one?) and then the poi kind of go into an inversion/barrel roll to make it work.

If all that is correct I think I finally understand this thread. If not I figured out a neat pattern and am a bit closer. shrug

Peace, Love, Circles


[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
ok rovo, taken a while to respond but here goes.

what yo describe is not how 'I' woul do an atomic weave, but it certainly is weaving an atom, but pausing in the inside planes.

I would start from an outside mesh atom, if you pulled the plains apart they would make a point away from you. (the first small picture on the right here

then i would cross right hand over left to go into crossed clash, the second small picture.

I then 'weave' my hands around so that left is on top and crosses imeadeatly to the opposite clash atom as shown here

remeber the weave is just an excercise, and may not be the most efective way of using atoms, its not realy a trick so much as an exploration.

as for the whole crane question, the reason i dont really talk about it is that i dont really use/understand it fully. Its an arashi thing.

basically crane is not what you think, its the way you can do multiple beats in clash state without tangling. (hint, try in paralell time first)

Hope this helps,

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


RovoGOLD Member
(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
544 posts
Location: Austin, TX, USA


Posted:
Actually yeah, that helped a ton. It's like a whole new realm of poi has opened to me. ubbidea That completely answered all of my questions. smile

The fact that you say the atomic weave you just described is only an exercise explains alot. When spinning between the different states that an atom can be in there are a multitude of different ways to get to the same end. Even though the hands might be postioned differently you still get the same look and effect. You can even string different atoms together to form random strings of atoms (molecules? ubblol).

Moving the whole atomic structure around while changing states looks amazing. It's almost like the poi are lazily bouncing around my hands. It's definitely possible to turn them as well. I can't wait untill I am comfortable with these.

For some reason figuring this out has made alot of the bf inside & inswing stuff I have been working on lately come together too. shrug

Thanks again! beerchug

Peace, Love, Circles


[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
its the key to many things, not least of all airwraps wink

its taken me a long time to get half comfortable with one direction, turning is still really hard as you have to remember what planes the poi are in and keep them there.

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


StoutBRONZE Member
Pooh-Bah
1,872 posts
Location: Canada


Posted:
I'm finding that spinning atomics with one poi in wall plane and one in wheel plane makes turning way simpler than spinning the poi at what could be referred to as a 45 degree angle..like in Tom's diagrams. I'm still using a proscenium style orientation when I spin, and the wall/wheel orientation stops me getting confused. The interesting part is working the 90 degree plane bend into transitioning in and out of atoms and I'm finding the good ole handwrap still works the best....but then there's that stall one poi and kick it..then yank it through the plane bend trick.

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
yeah stout, me too frown

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


Noelskimember
129 posts

Posted:
Okay i posted this elsewhaere hoping to get some kind of critique, what is below is actually atomic spinning (Box) more than actual "atoms"



I had a moment of some inspiraiton and wrote this this morning, thank you HOP people, especially Nx and Arashi.... Your number 1 lurker... biggrin



Atomic Spinning:




About to open a can of worms. ubblol



So the link with all the mesh clash stuff is good start but it only describes one quality of atomics and in a certain respect is kind of confusing so I just took what I needed from it...



Me and my friend ian have been really working on atomics.



Here's a little of some theory I have worked up :



You are in a box all the way around you. (noticing that when you turn through atomics you actually have to turn more than you coulda thought)



Corner #1: Crossed Mesh-ish



You start in a adjusted crossed mesh or in other words with your arms crossed, left arm on top and doing a butterfly tilted vertically (this whole tilt of the planes is worth really understanding deeply) way toward the center in front of you so the planes intersect in a corner of a box.



If you look at this position your arms are crossed and you actually form a squarish thing if you look at the poi heads and the arms in relation to one another.



Look at the link below at figure 4a that is the crossed mesh I was talking about. Look at the square made by the arms and the poi.



https://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=1



Okay but heres where the theory changes a bit, the intersection of the poi is no longer right by the hands but the poi heads nearly touch. And that is what forms the corner of the box



no more X atomics but > atomics( I hate the use of these symbols but I think this might work)



Corner #2 : Uncrossed Clash-ish



Doing the next position correctly requires one to be able to bust an atomic weave at will, (the move that looks like something from the fornt and the side)



Rovo insert video here.



Making sure that your atomic weaves do not degrade to 3bt thread the needles (ton of tech in that comment but Ill leave it alone)



Start in Corner #1 arms crossed with your left arm on top. Look at the atomic goodness, your left arm is on top of your right on your right side.



Then take your left arm and keeping it in the same plane (mind you not the same place but in a plane parallel to the first one, this leads into revs strata distinctions that actually are helpful)



uncross your arms so you are in the immediate next corner of the box with your arms uncrossed which is to the right. (I have discovered that you need to turn more that you , thought, seems obvious but for some reason its not)



IN this position the poi look more like a weave and less like a butterfly. (remember your arms are uncrossed) The poi are going away from the point of intersection. This is unlike corner #1 in which both poi go toward the intersection.



So you can continue to corner # 3 which is another crossed mesh-ish thing then onto corner #4 that is uncrossed class thing.



Observations they are not ordered and dont quite make complete sense yet:
confused



So you might say, Hey these atomics kinda suck, you need to be on a roof to even see what is happening or be a tech geek, they have very little performance value..



BUT!! Think about this observation, attributed to Aidon aka Ian,



Isnt Corner #1 kinda like a butterfly while corner # 2 is more like a weave?



Ah yes they are like different directions except the planes are not parallel but perpendicular..movement is possible from your normal spinning into atomics, movement between split and same direction.ohh yeah.



But wait! How is this movement possible? You might have guessed it, incorporating more box spinning techniques, including the weird stall float in the air quality to your spinning, if you dont know what I am talking about go to spherc and watch matts vids.



Further, cant the crossed mesh not be a crossed-mesh but a crossed-clash? Which I mean that the poi instead of both going toward/away from the intersection (like a butterfly) when your arms are crossed can actually both go away or some direction around? Or vise versa with the uncrossed?



So please comment, would love to have some others input on thisthis is really in the beginning and has not completely taken shape yet.



If the terms are scattered and often not completely accurate or clear, sorry......

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
yeah its a good desciption, it dosnt acyually add anything to the model, and if you look at the atom weave diagram, that is crossed clash to crosed clash, with no open mesh.

you dont need to go open clashed for your version, you can just weave it straight round.

and the thing about atomics is they look like both weaves and butterflies, and this is coincidently what they are like to spin too.

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


DarkFyreBRONZE Member
HoP mage and keeper of the fireballs
1,965 posts
Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand


Posted:
I gave atoms a try and atoms gave me a headache, both litterally and figuratively (Clashes arn't supposed to involve your head are they?).

Anyhoo I'm starting to make sense of them, just need more practice.

Many thanks

May my balls of fire set your balls on fire devil


Noelskimember
129 posts

Posted:
"you dont need to go open clashed for your version, you can just weave it straight round."

Yup thats what we've been trying, kind of a more dancey feel. so you weave between opposite sides of the box.

Have you played with accessing more horizontal atoms? Can't quite get my mind around the point of intersection from your tutorial.....

Thanks for replying Nx, are you going to uber france? We should talk more then.

Until then we ought to make videos.....:)

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
dunno about france.

horisontals work the same but you need to convert the diagrams in your head.

T

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


Noelskimember
129 posts

Posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdVfvmZuJl4

Here's a video I just shot real quick where I show the box, or atoms where the heads meet at a L not an X

I show all four corners of the box. where your crossed for two corners and then your uncrossed for the other two.

in the end I try to invert an atom where the poi are like an X not an L..

Short little video with me getting all paranoid in the middle....please talk more about this, its starting to meld....

Thanks all
N-

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
and here we see the problem with atoms

you got the right idea, but your plane contol is poor, looks a bit flat to me.

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


oliSILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom


Posted:
i think the way to make atoms look good is to do them how arashi dose them... watch a video that he made called fuse to see how he dose them...

what you want is to create an x shape for the observor...to do this you need to have the planes at right angles, with the intersection between the planes (a line) pointing at the observor. easier said than done though, keep up the good work smile

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no


Noelskimember
129 posts

Posted:
Aye Nx, poor poor control...but at least its some form of video that is somewhat instructional? smile

Make a video and show me whats up!!!!

I've seen Rovo's vid's.... I actually took an atom class from arashi and he stressed the buzzsaw atom that was tilted....

THX oli
"said than done though, keep up the good work "

I will be coming through bristol I think after uber france early that week to try to see sandy and garth.....we should hang. Unless your coming to uberparis?

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
sorry, didnt mean to sound harsh was just sighing because it a problem i have aswell, and the reason why they are still just starting out.

too busy and no real computing power for videos, not much to show anyway wink

thoes x plane things are really hard, i still think ther is worth in vertical ones tho... think ropes.

T

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


oliSILVER Member
not with cactus
2,052 posts
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devon, United Kingdom


Posted:
not sure about uberparis yet, but i should be in bristol at that time biggrin

Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no


Danny_GOLD Member
.
95 posts
Location: Brighton, United Kingdom


Posted:
i've been trying to learn an atomic 3 beat weave independantly, and i've only now gone to the effort of reading through this thread. it seems like i'm doing something different to everyone else.



firstly, i don't move my body. secondly, the poi stay in front of me at all times. also, my hands move in the same motion as they do when i do a 3 beat weave and the poi move split time, but the planes are at 90 degrees to each other.



using [nx?]'s diagram: https://www.homeofpoi.com/gallery/showpho...=500&page=1



to clarify how i'm going to describe this, the top diagram on the left, 'above the intersection', both poi are 'inside mesh'. the second diagram on the left, 'crossed mesh', both poi are spinning 'crossed mesh'.



starting with both poi spinning inside mesh, split time, change to the crossed mesh, right hand on top. ). after the left poi has spun once in the crossed position, spin it once on the inside position (meanwhile the right hand poi is starting its second spin in the crossed position, moving underneath the left wrist), then move your left wrist over the right wrist and spin once in the crossed position. then the right poi, after completing it's second spin in the crossed position, should spin once on the inside position (meanwhile the left hand poi starts its second spin in the crossed position, moving underneath the right wrist), then move your right wrist over the left wrist and spin in the crossed position. etc.



did that make any sense?



the way i learnt it was trying to change between the two crossed meshes (left hand on top, right hand on top) until i could do it with 3 beats.



this can be done forwards or backwards, and i've worked out how to tidily turn around the atom (keeping the atom still) but not how to move the atom around my body (not tidily, anyway). it can also be rotated so that the line of intersection is horizontal.



my apologies if i'm repeating something that's already been talked about...

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
yeah, this is inside atomic weave, the most comfortable thing to do with atoms,


i recon try moving them over yer head..

T :wave

p.s. clean, by christ not yet :P

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


Danny_GOLD Member
.
95 posts
Location: Brighton, United Kingdom


Posted:
ooh, moving it over your head and back down the other side is doable

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
biggrin

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
cool, it got moved! smile

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


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