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Forums > Social Discussion > A question about space, and getting into bath water

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:I had a thought a few weeks ago after watching a pretty bog standard and boring programme on the guy who suppoisdly jumped out of his basth water and shouted ureka. Im thinking, this is pretty dumbed down even for television there really stretching this out over an hour.

Anyway, I wanted to ask this. Ok you know how you get into a bath half full of water, and your body pushes the water up, its called...dispersion or something I cant remember the name for it at the moment.

If I move to the other end of a room and stop still, will I make abrit_joe shape hole around that bit in the universe?

Does the same thing happen out of the bath (at that particular point I decide to stand still in) as in the bath with the bath water?

Im I making sense?


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Imbalance
GOLD Member since Sep 2005

Imbalance

not different, just not the same
Location: Charlotte, NC, USA

Total posts: 263
Posted:hmm, interesting point, however i'd say your analagy is a bit flawed. Your example of the man in the bath water states that the man goes INTO the bath water. Meaning he was previously OUTSIDE the bath water. Thus the water rises to accomidate this new mass in the middle of it.

However, a person is never outside the universe, therefore there is no addition of mass to MAKE a displacement effect. Thus, when you move to the side of the room and stop still, the universe doesn't move nor have a displacement since it was already accomidating you. Think of a fish swimming in the ocean. It it moves from one reef to the other, there is no displacement, because the water level had already accomidated for the fish's mass.

Antoher small error in the analogy is the bathtub itself. The displacement effect fo the water is only noticable because it is contained inside the bathtub. when the water level rises due to the man getting in the water, there is a previously existing level to measure it against because the water previously existed inside the bathtub. There is no "container" that we know about for the universe/space/time. Thus no previously existing level to measure displacement against.

now one could take this arguement further and start to debate such things as what the meaning of the universe is, and therefore what objects are considered to be part of the universe (ie are fish part of the water because they move through it? if not then technically there is a hole whereever the fish is because the water has to flow around the fish..etc etc) and one could argue that being that the universe is considered by most to be boundless that displacement is impossible blah blah blah, but I don't feel like getting all that existential at this point.

;-)


I once learned every move that there was,
Every style, Every technique.
Then I woke up, and forgot it all,
So now I struggle to dream.

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:Displacement. smile

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:could it work if...
If you were fully submerged in water and then came out....does that class as air displacement??? because the water level drops and air fills the space and you are now occupying a space inair....could it work for any transfer between media?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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saya


saya

member
Location: the Netherlands

Total posts: 30
Posted:I thought a train leaves a 'hole' behind it when its going fast. It pushes the air in front of it away and leaves a space with lesser air (low pressure) behind it and all the other air around it starts running into it until its 'normal' again. At least, I believe that thats what I've been told when I was talking with someone about the train pulling you with it when it passes. When you are walking this also happens but it never leaves a hole because the air is moving around you at the very moment you are walking so its immediatly filled up again. At least thats how I see it.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:You definitely displace the atmosphere.

Do you displace space? i think no, but you do distort it.

confused2

where's someone with a PHD in physics?

failing that, someone who half-remembers an popular article they can misquote to us. wink


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:the answers so far are pretty damn good i reckon smile

displacing space is a misnomer - if by 'space' you mean vacuum, then no, there is obviously no displacement because there is nothing to displace.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Though, if you 'distort' spacetime (which is how gravity works innit? confused)

then some displacement would be involved. Oh, but in reverse (pulling it in toward your gravity well). wouldnit?

confused shrug


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:the distortion of spacetime by a mass is not really that analogous to displacement.

if you could measure the distortion in spacetime caused by a body as easily as you can measure a rise in water level within a container due to the displacement caused by a body then you could indeed calculate the mass of the body.

but i think water displacement is the more readily available, intuitive and easier to explain technique seeing as it avoids the requirement of an understanding of special relativity and all that...


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:hmm, but you can't fit the moon in a bathtub.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:You do distort air but air is much 'spongier' than water and so absorbs the displacement.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:monkey - you don't calculate the mass of the moon by directly measuring the distortion it causes in spacetime either (though even newton did get it slightly wrong).



smile





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:but you could though, couldn't ya? if you really really wanted. Or am i arse-backward?

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:yes - there are lots and lots of ways to calculate mass smile

the techniques used in each are different.

using the displacement of a liquid is one method.

it is nothing like measuring the strength of a body's gravitational pull and calculating it that way.

unless you were thinking of a kind of direct measure of space-time distortion that i'm ignoring...?


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:just thinking that it's a way in which you could say you're "displacing space". Although kind of inverted.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:its that bloody poi spinning induced pseudo science creeping in again innit? mad

wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Written by: coleman


the answers so far are pretty damn good i reckon smile



displacing space is a misnomer - if by 'space' you mean vacuum, then no, there is obviously no displacement because there is nothing to displace.





cole. x





But isnt the vacuum itself considerd as 'something'? So would you make a whatever shape in the vacuum?


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I think you might be missing, or at least not mentioning, the differences in compressability of water and air. Air is so compressable that it will compress more noticably before it displaces.

But polythene's right. It's really just displacement.

I like watching a helium balloon in a car more. It's trippy.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:no, it's nothing. That's the point of vacuum.

Although i suppose we can talk about it as a theoretical "space". So it's a thing.

But only in our heads. It's not made of anything. Or to put it another way: it's made of nothing.

In fact, what you're talking about is Negative Space.

Do a search for it in poi moves smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Brit_Joe


But isnt the vacuum itself considerd as 'something'? So would you make a whatever shape in the vacuum?



Vacuum is generally thought of as the lack of something. Dictionary calls it the "lack of matter"... so no, it's specifically NOT something.

Kind of like "cold" but in a more material sense. smile


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:lol, so your saying a vacuum is nothing, and that its somehow out of the universe?

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:NYC- How much do you reckon spacetime compresses?

*pictures a crane that uses cosmaulics to move planets about*

argh - the poi spinning induced pseudo science is eating my brain


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: Brit_Joe

lol, so your saying a vacuum is nothing, and that its somehow out of the universe?



um, it IS nothing.

Out of the universe??? huh?

is a hole in a bucket out of the bucket?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Brit_Joe

Im thinking, this is pretty dumbed down even for television there really stretching this out over an hour.



obviously their 'dumbing down' was pretty ineffective ubblol

considering dumbing down is supposed to present complex issues as less complex ones, it seems that they didn't explain displacement very well at all (as nyc said, the incompessibility of a liquid is an essential element of displacement) or even say it enough times for it to stick in your head!

so the answer to your query is "displacement can only occur in a liquid" (and, you could possibly argue, in liquid-like materials such as sand too).

the only other related fact is that you cannot occupy the same space as something else.
that should tell you that wherever you are, there is not air/water/someone else taking up the same space as you are - so yes, wherever you are, you always create a you-shaped hole in the universe.

beware: entirely different rules apply to cats.


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: simian

NYC- How much do you reckon spacetime compresses?




4.5

But I'm not sure of the units yet. wink

And a vacuum is an ideal concept. If you went to a party, and there were no girls there, you wouldn't wonder where the 'no girls' starts and stops. Nor if the lack of girls was a part of the universe. There just aren't any girls. And the party sucks. Now if you go to a party and there isn't any matter there, you're at a vacuum. And that's the worst party ever.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Ok but isnt the universe made up of something itself, if you take away all the stuff thats inside the universe (saaay put it into an alternate one) what are you left with? The material that makes up the universe?

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

wherever you are, you always create a you-shaped hole in the universe.



Isn't that just because you're defining 'you' to be whatever happens to be in that space? Isn't it relatively arbatrary where 'you' start and stop?

ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:I doubt it, you could define 'you' as whatever is inbetween the layer of air (and germs and stuff thats floating around) and your last layer of dead skin

*tries to be clever amoung the brainiacs but probably fails miserably*


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: Brit_Joe

Ok but isnt the universe made up of something itself, if you take away all the stuff thats inside the universe (saaay put it into an alternate one) what are you left with? The material that makes up the universe?



Ether. Doesn't exist.

Take a cup of tea

Remove:
the teabag
the water
the sugar
the milk
& the cup

You are left with exactly the same stuff as what you get when you remove all stuff from the universe.

Its scientific name is "bugger all"


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:nyc spank


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:But what about the idea of alternate realitys or universes (whatever there called), there must be something to seperate the two, like a room in a house, if you have a room and build a partition you have two rooms, remove the wall and you have one, and only one.

Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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