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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:Right....during my time here on HoP I have noticed many conflicting veiws. (most based around religion wink) but was wondering, Many here seem to have a scientific background / belief system (please lets not descend into a disscussion on belief) and others a more alternative thought process.

I was looking at some threads and visualised 2 groups disscussing. in the blue corner, a group of (for sake of a better word) hippies, and in the red corner, a group of (for sake of a better word) scientists.

I was wondering about peoples thoughts on modern medicine verses alternative therapies.
Can reflexology alieviate asthma. or are inhalers the best cure?

Whats the best way to fix a bad back?

seconds out round 1. ubblol


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Aryth
SILVER Member since May 2005

Aryth

in a beautiful daze....
Location: Liverpool, England

Total posts: 134
Posted:*walks to the blue corner*

Personally i feel that natural remidies and alternative therapy are a really good method of healing for some people but not for others. Natural/alternative healing is mainly based on cures and remidies which have been used for centuries, so for these to have started there must be some element of truth to them.

My belief is that a large part of both modern medicine and natural healing is based on the positive attitude of the patient and the want to be cured. People who are cynical of natural remidies will not feel better form a headache aafter taking some form of herbal medication, but they will after a paracetemol. People who believe natural remidies work will feel better after herbal medicine.

Arguably this could all be related to the placebo effect but in my opinion if nature can give us all various ailments and poisons then why can't it cure also?

Alternative therapies such as raikia (i can't spell sorry) can be very empowering for people and can help in the healing process alongside modern medicine. I think a balanced combination of the two is the best option.


Whatever happened to my green and pleasant land?

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Drudwyn


Drudwyn

Forget puppy power, Scrappy's just gay
Location: Southampton Uni

Total posts: 632
Posted:Woof!

I'm a hippy scientist, so where does that put me? I believe that I live in an evolved body, from compounds that were made from the fusion of hydrogen and helium atoms in ancient stars. As Joni Mitchell sang, "We are stardust". But I believe that the mind and body are seperate beings. The body is matter and the mind isn't. I can use lots of words like Quantum to explain it, but it's bloody long winded and I'll end up quoting fringe science books at you, and you'll only get bored.

Basically I believe I have at least part of the soul of a dog in a human form. All life is part of the same one consciousness, and our experiences and memories are shared, and we evolve too, and although our body dictates thoughts, we can go beyond our bodies desires and be more. I believe in the healing power of Raiki, in herbal remedies, in acupuncture and in the power of chemicals.

But if science proves something i believe in right or wrong, my beliefs will change, or I'd just be a hypocrit. So if there's a scientific explanation, then I'll go with that one. But at the fringes of science there is nothing but philosophy and possibility... confused i have no idea where I'm going with this one... so I'll go away now.


Spin, bounce, be one with the world, because it is yours to enjoy...

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Dr_Molly


Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home

Total posts: 2354
Posted:I don't think the hippies and the scientists have such clear cut boundries.

Last week we went dowsing round the lab (the hold two sticks and see when they cross thing). I'm not sure it worked though - I apparently divined a scientist when I was really expecting to get a sink confused

I am often impressed by how open minded people are to different ideas. But isn't that what being a good scientist is all about? smile


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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: Molly

I don't think the hippies and the scientists have such clear cut boundries.



Me neither. I think each approach works in the same way, just using a different medium. I've just not figured out what I think is working.

Recently science has embraced a lot of things which ancient cultures practised, such as obvious things like Yoga, Qi Gong, Tai Chi etc. A couple of days ago I was reading about a new type of contact lens which applies pressure to the front of your eye to alter its shape. You wear the lens at night, take it out and your vision is better. It gets bad again by the evening, but the theory is good. Apparently in ancient China people were known to sleep with little sacks of stuff on their eyes for the same benefit. shrug


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Molly

I don't think the hippies and the scientists have such clear cut boundries.



I agree. I often think that it's only when the media gets their hands on it and tries to make a story about it that it gets into a "vs" situation. Most real scientists I know are very open minded.

I think modern medicine gets a bad wrap. It's really very good at some things. If I get shot in the leg, I'd much rather be wheeled into a corporate hospital than a herbalist. smile and then there are some things that modern medicine is absolutely horrible at. Which is where 'alternative' medicine can help.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Lemonkey


Lemonkey

Stalking amidst the desert, carrying an oversized scalpel...
Location: Huddersfield + Hull Uni... UK.

Total posts: 1019
Posted:Bit of both.

Willy - is bad for your health...

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Fine_Rabid_Dog


Internet Hate Machine
Location: They seek him here, they seek ...

Total posts: 10530
Posted:ditto

Bit of both...


The existance of flamethrowers says that someone, somewhere, at sometime said "I need to set that thing on fire, but it's too far away."

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_SkwaiR_


_SkwaiR_

newbie
Location: Swansea/ROxford

Total posts: 13
Posted:well theres gonna be natural therapies that can help with certain problems, sure, but theres almost always some kind of pill (not that kinda pill!) that can be taken which does the job just as well or better (not always, but alot of the time) and requires a lot less energy. I reckon a bit of both should be used. take a little from column A, and a little from column B peace

We Are The Youth Gone Wild!!!!!!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Hey, I'm an M.D. from a traditional medical school with an M.S. in molecular biology.

And yet I employ and recommend natural remedies all the time.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

And yet I employ and recommend natural remedies all the time.



Like ice cream and alcohol. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:And fish oil!

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:I know there are no clearly defined boundaries between hippies and scientists (owsley wink) but was trying to draw a distinction.
I myself am very open minded and been for a few alternative therapies. I've had Raiki and accupuncture both of which brought on the most god awful migraines. I had both these treatments off recommended trained professionals (raiki with a raiki master) I agree nature has the power to heal eukalyptus and aloe vera are just 2 of an array of plants with great medical properties.
Doc I wouldn't call fish oil a natural remedy just good diet. The same as I would call medatative techniques relaxation. I agree more with Aryths placebo effect and positive attitude to healing (think the raiki may have just stressed me out more)


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I call fish oil a natural remedy because it's not something one would normally eat. Fish, sure. But not fish OIL, which is the concentrated essential fatty acids from fish body. Fish comes in fillets, fish oil comes in pills or in liquid. And besides, fish has heavy metals, while commercial fish oil preparations don't.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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=Flashpoint=
SILVER Member since Sep 2004

=Flashpoint=

Pasta of Muppets
Location: in the interwebs...

Total posts: 2719
Posted:Fnah.

I'm going to go for the balanced view:

Maladies (headaches etc) are usually better treated by alternative or traditional remedies.

Disease and infection (save for surface infection, natural poultices are good, so use them) are better treated by modern medicine, like penicillin and the like.

Try treating AIDS with Chamomile tea, and see where it gets you...

However, some modern treatments are just pill forms of modern drugs. Take digitalin (?) which my dad takes for his heart... Its just foxglove extract.

I believe the synthetics (such as Keflin (?)) should not be used unless there is no naturally derived treatment available, as resistant strains of bug can appear. And lots of us will die, horribly...

Consider the opiate derivative drugs. Where do they stop being natural? At the extraction of the opium from the poppy? When its refined into Morphine? When its refined again into Heroin?

Note: I'm not medical at all, so Doc please correct names of drugs as appropriate, and any information I provide is perfectly open to being a load of crap, cos I dont know anything about it... biggrin


ohmygodlaserbeamspewpewpew!
ubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmileubbrollsmile

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:wrote a post and deleted it. I'm not a doctor or a homeopathist, so my opinion is pretty invalid.

just one point though:

Why is this thread called Science vs Nature?
Thats a false dichotomy, suggesting the two words are of the same order.
It's like saying "Red vs Cube" or "Pride vs Wombats".
It also suggests modern medicine is "unnatural" somehow. Is it? And don't many alternative remedies claim to be scientific?

What the HELL does natural mean anyway???


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:never judge a book by it's cover sim. wink

I thought synthetic chemical remedies versus natural extracts and homeopathic treatments was a bit long winded.
I Looked at a couple of threads including accupuncture and saw differences in opinion. some thought it was great and others disagreed.
I know many medicines contain natural extracts but we still take the "pills" "capsules" that contain them. these are pharmaceutically reproduced. it is almost impossible to get powders and salves that are 100% natural. many "new age" remedies including raiki, have little "scientific" proof that I have seen / believed. do people here feel the power of the mind andtruely natural remedies are betterthan pharmacutical?

Flash I have to disagree on the headache front I suffer terrible headaches and no amount of alternative therapy has worked as well as neurofen and imigran.


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: Mynci
...it is almost impossible to get powders and salves that are 100% natural.

Written by: simian
What the HELL does natural mean anyway???





EDIT: Oh, maybe it means this:

"a feed or ingredient derived solely from plant, animal or mined sources, either in its unprocessed state or having been subject to physical processing, heat processing, rendering, purification, extraction, hydrolysis, enzymolysis or fermentation, but not haviing been producted by or subject to a chemically synthetic process and not containing any additives or processing aids that are chemically synthetic except in amounts as might occur unavoidably in good manufacturing practices"



But what makes the distinction of 'substances that do or do not fall into that definition' at all important or meaningful?

EDITED_BY: simian (1127306831)


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Hmm, reread that and maybe i sound a bit shirty and pedantic.

Basically it seems to me like there's two debates waiting to start here:

Non-synthetic v Synthetic Remedies
and
Conventional (scientific) medical opinion v Alternative (non-scientific) medical opinion

and i'm trying to pin you down to one smile

in my opinion:
non-synthetic remedies = good
synthetic remedies = good
conventional opinion = good
alternative opinion = rubbish


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:who asked for meaningful. wink I was wondering about opinion and more about homeopathic remedies than natural preparations.

Are people who react to raiki, pyramid therapy etc really ill? are they experiencing psychosomatic symptoms (not just imaginary but the brain telling them they are in pain) or do these therapies have a basis we cannot measure quantatively. people say they work and they feel better after so that is to some extent measured qualitativly.
Can anyone explain the medical basis of:
Raiki
Accupuncture
Pyramid therapy
Light therapy
Crystal therapy
what do they do to the body? and why do people feel better.
I apologise simian if i was a bit vauge but wanted to see what people thought on quite a wide subject


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:But alternative remedies... even if they are just psychosomatic, what's the problem? If they help the body heal itself, it doesn't matter if they're real or not (to me at least).

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Because if they're psychosomatic then if they work for you then you might end up recommending them to someone else for whom it doesn't work, and they then have less opportunity to try a kind of therapy that isn't psychosomatic. I've read stories about people refusing to let doctors treat themselves or their kids because of their beliefs in various forms of alternative medicine that have then failed and led to deaths.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/PhonyAds/silverad.html
br>
http://www.auroville.com/vijnana/interest/aids.htm


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:quote: 'Natural/alternative healing is mainly based on cures and remidies which have been used for centuries, so for these to have started there must be some element of truth to them.'

Nope: people have been racist for centuries. doesn't mean there's an element of truth to it.


ture na sig

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Centuries ago, people also died at 40 routinely from things like abscessed teeth.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:That's not true. Everything was better before Starbucks.

There wasn't any war or disease or poverty or opression.

Corporate America invented war, disease, and poverty to sell movies and beer. And now they invented hurricaines to kill all the poor people and raise oil prices.

Just ask the guy on the corner of 2nd avenue.

Actually, you don't need to ask him. He'll just yell it at you for free. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:2nd and what? Because at 2nd and 4th it's all the fault of a lack of Jesus.

Maybe these things change block by block? confused


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:I believe there is some possibility for faith healing / energy healing etc. on two bases...

1. Mind over matter... namely that so much of our internal states are regulated subconsciously, however ritual / meditation / energy healing can supply a way for the mind to direct these normally automatic processes in a more efficient way that allows the human body to heal by natural processes. Like bringing one's attention to a specific problem and exerting more direct control over the healing process.

Of course that could be because of belief (subconcious reprogramming?), etc. That's one possibility I see.

2. Energy manipulation... everything is made up of energy (E=mc^2 and all that). Physical forms allow for one way directly manipulate energy. More subtle ways of energy manipulation may exist as well.

Note that I specifically see these as POSSIBILITIES of explanation of these phenomenon. But given that no one has ever been able to really reproduce their claimed effects in a controlled setting, I don't know about the practicality of these treatment methods anymore. I used to be a strong believer in them, but not so much any more. I don't outright dismiss them, but at the LEAST some element of belief / placebo effect seems to be working here in any real cases.

As for the energy thing, I see one scientifically proven methodology that I can point at to support at least some kind of extra perceptory ability people have with energy / magnetic fields or whatever, and that is dowsing. I have seen that work amazingly accurately. Pendant magic / divination etc. is supposed to work on the same principle... people being able to sense these energy fields and such...

On a side note, my boss is from India, and has brought me many manuscripts written by his teacher, who I guess is big over there. He is a Pranic healer, and he swears by it. I'[m not so sure about it. I've injured myself several times and he has "sent me energy" and I did heal fast (pulled muscles, sprained ankle, etc.) but what is really "fast"? Eh.


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Dr_Molly


Dr_Molly

Pooh-Bah
Location: Away from home

Total posts: 2354
Posted:hehehe

I was giggling about this thread in my office and casually mentioned the title to my friend, who very earnestly turned and said:

"Well, Nature has a higher impact rating."

hehehe

um... maybe you have to be a scientist to get that one tongue


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Posted:Nice topic.

I have a pretty scientific background, so i'd mostly go for a modern treatment. I do believe in reiki/acupuncture/meditation etc though because I've personally had good experiences with these, and i'm very much into the mind over matter side of things.

Taking some random herb without the slightest evidence that it will cure your ailment seems pretty silly to me. The only possible way i could imagine this working is if... somehow your belief that it will cure you is so strong that your reality will warp and it does cause some of beneficial chemical change (this is not the same as a placebo effect).


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think that a lot of 'health' is about ones state of mind, so, for those who 'dislike' orthodox medicine (for whatever reason), alternative treatments will be something they're happier about doing, possibly leading to a health benefit.

Whereas, if they had some conventional treatment, especially if it was invasive, or if, as it generally does, it involves long waits and impersonal service- that could well lead to a low mental state, perceived, or even actual (there is evidence that fear/anxiety can lead to actual health problems) lowering of health.

A further factor, and perhaps this will annoy some people, so apologies, but it's what I believe- is that alternative treatments can be beneficial even if they 'don't work' (in the orthodox sense of producing testable changes) in that they can be a substitute for orthodox treatments that would have negative consequences for that individual.

Examples here would be situations in which unnecessary anti-biotics were prescribed- this used to be very common (possibly still is); an infection that would go away of its own accord in a few days, with minimal distress, would be prescribed unnecessary antibiotics, which, in some cases, would have an adverse effect on that individuals health.

Similarly with those who are prescribed anti-depressants/other mood altering drugs when, in that individuals case, such drugs are not only innapropriate, but lead to greater harm.

Many doctors will deny that this happens these days, that is their opinion, I'd refer people to the misprescribing of tranquilizers in the 60's, and ask if it's so impossible to believe that similar things happen today with prozacs etc.

In those scenarios, the individuals who 'walk away' from the orthodox system, and choose alternative treatments, are at a health advantage, even if the 'treatments' they choose have no measurable effects.

There's a lot more to health than the physically measurable- most alternative practice involves very obvious and noticable respect for the patient, who is given time to talk, receives clear explanations and basically comes away feeling comforted.

This is in sharp contrast to a visit to the hospital or GP (from the experience of the UKs NHS anyway), where they are often made to feel disrespected and fearful. Of course, this is not intentional, and is a consequence of low funds and high demand; nevertheless, from the perspective of the patient, at the end of the day, orthodox diagnosis/treatrment can be deeply unpleasant.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:quote psyrush:

'somehow your belief that it will cure you is so strong that your reality will warp and it does cause some of beneficial chemical change (this is not the same as a placebo effect).'

oh, please . . .


ture na sig

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