Forums > Social Discussion > Science Vs Nature
Login/Join to ParticipateBRONZE Member
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Macaque of all trades
8,738 posts
Location: wombling free..., United Kingdom
Posted:
Right....during my time here on HoP I have noticed many conflicting veiws. (most based around religion
) but was wondering, Many here seem to have a scientific background / belief system (please lets not descend into a disscussion on belief) and others a more alternative thought process.
I was looking at some threads and visualised 2 groups disscussing. in the blue corner, a group of (for sake of a better word) hippies, and in the red corner, a group of (for sake of a better word) scientists.
I was wondering about peoples thoughts on modern medicine verses alternative therapies.
Can reflexology alieviate asthma. or are inhalers the best cure?
Whats the best way to fix a bad back?
seconds out round 1.
Right....during my time here on HoP I have noticed many conflicting veiws. (most based around religion
) but was wondering, Many here seem to have a scientific background / belief system (please lets not descend into a disscussion on belief) and others a more alternative thought process. I was looking at some threads and visualised 2 groups disscussing. in the blue corner, a group of (for sake of a better word) hippies, and in the red corner, a group of (for sake of a better word) scientists.
I was wondering about peoples thoughts on modern medicine verses alternative therapies.
Can reflexology alieviate asthma. or are inhalers the best cure?
Whats the best way to fix a bad back?
seconds out round 1.
A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
Most of the best western medicines come from synthesised natural remedies anyway so i don't understand what all the fuss is about.
I voted for balance of the 2, but i never take anything like antibiotics.
Healthy diet and a bit of exercise does the trick for me.
m
Most of the best western medicines come from synthesised natural remedies anyway so i don't understand what all the fuss is about.
I voted for balance of the 2, but i never take anything like antibiotics.
Healthy diet and a bit of exercise does the trick for me.
m
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
addict
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
577 posts
Location: Oregon, USA
Posted:
It's arguments like that that peeve me.. "clear the kind you are proposing, that some people have a medical response to -say- homeopathy"... I'm not really sure how you linked my statements and question to homeopathy. I am not much of a personal fan of homeopathy, and I do believe that certain folks will have better reactions to certain types of healing than others, and that healing methods can be tailored to the individual.
I think "proper scientific tests" is the main phrase there. A point to some of my statements is that scientific studies into the world of "alternative" medicines are still trying to formulate "proper scientific tests". Pharmaceuticals, which break the constituents down into specifics and only take that which they want for a medicine, can be tested in traditional methods because you are testing against those specifics. When dealing with a whole plant, and, more importantly, a process, traditional tests often break down and do not give an accurate return. Add to that the fact that "alternative" medicines are in a very high political realm right now and many tests have been weighted on both sides, giving less than stellar "scientific" results.
Written by: jeff(fake)
There is almost certainly variation which isn't understood yet but it is clear that the kind you are proposing, that some people have a medical response to -say- homeopathy whilst other do not, simply doesn't exist. Such a thing would be clearly demonstratable to the rest of the medical world who would be forced to accept it.
It's arguments like that that peeve me.. "clear the kind you are proposing, that some people have a medical response to -say- homeopathy"... I'm not really sure how you linked my statements and question to homeopathy. I am not much of a personal fan of homeopathy, and I do believe that certain folks will have better reactions to certain types of healing than others, and that healing methods can be tailored to the individual.
Written by:
This is simply an excuse for the failure of psuedoscientific procedures of any kind. You forget that you can make a test which looks at only one factor: Does it have any effect greater than a placebo?. There are medicines in use today which science has absolutely no idea how they work. It can however be shown that they do work. Many traditional chinese medicines can be shown to work with proper scientific tests, so why can't the psuedoscientic ones (even those that originated in the west) give anything other than a null result?
I think "proper scientific tests" is the main phrase there. A point to some of my statements is that scientific studies into the world of "alternative" medicines are still trying to formulate "proper scientific tests". Pharmaceuticals, which break the constituents down into specifics and only take that which they want for a medicine, can be tested in traditional methods because you are testing against those specifics. When dealing with a whole plant, and, more importantly, a process, traditional tests often break down and do not give an accurate return. Add to that the fact that "alternative" medicines are in a very high political realm right now and many tests have been weighted on both sides, giving less than stellar "scientific" results.
Written by:Nit-pick away. I still feel that some of your statements could have used more rationality; not that you care in the least.
Just nit-picking now, but they way you feel about my points will have no effect on whether they are right or not. Rational inquiry is the only route to objective truth.
Definition of poi- A Hawaiian food made from the tuber of the taro that is cooked, pounded to a paste, and fermented.
Ahnold discussing poi - "It is naht a toober!"
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
btw, science is a part of nature, not outside of it
And what do people mean when they say 'alternative medicine'
eg. If i have a sore throat i'll drink hot honey and lemon. Honey is a natural antiseptic and i even went to a chemist once and they said the best thing was not to buy the products but to drink honey and lemon.
Now to me that's a simple 'alternative medicine' and it works very well.
I sometimes take lactobacillus ('friendly bacteria') for my poorly stomach. I tried to get them on prescription but couldn't. So is this an alternative medicine? Because they definitely help too. They are in your stomach anyway but some people have more than others.
What about a good massage instead of deep heat?
A nice hot bath with lavender oil instead of headache pills?
Exercise and healthy food instead of slimming pills?
Not to mention all the things that can be done with Aloe Vera...
I don't understand how anyone in their right mind can consider these things not to work???
And Jeff, the hygiene problem in hospitals is due to the over use of antibiotics.
m
btw, science is a part of nature, not outside of it
And what do people mean when they say 'alternative medicine'
eg. If i have a sore throat i'll drink hot honey and lemon. Honey is a natural antiseptic and i even went to a chemist once and they said the best thing was not to buy the products but to drink honey and lemon.
Now to me that's a simple 'alternative medicine' and it works very well.
I sometimes take lactobacillus ('friendly bacteria') for my poorly stomach. I tried to get them on prescription but couldn't. So is this an alternative medicine? Because they definitely help too. They are in your stomach anyway but some people have more than others.
What about a good massage instead of deep heat?
A nice hot bath with lavender oil instead of headache pills?
Exercise and healthy food instead of slimming pills?
Not to mention all the things that can be done with Aloe Vera...
I don't understand how anyone in their right mind can consider these things not to work???
And Jeff, the hygiene problem in hospitals is due to the over use of antibiotics.
m
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
Posted:
Just nit-picking now, but they way you feel about my points will have no effect on whether they are right or not. Rational inquiry is the only route to objective truth.
I would argue this. Rational inquiry only get's you so far, at which point a RADICALLY different step is needed, that of induction, which is never 100%, but is still probably more correct than say, random assumption.
Further there is the interpetation thingy too that was pointed out, which can get you in trouble in poorly performed experiments, but isn't as much of a problem in well performed experiments which measure physical phenomenon. Once you start getting to things like MENTAL experiments and psychology, interpetation becomes much more important a factor, but in pure PHYSICAL science (and thus "modern" medicine) interpetation is not entirely a problem because cause-effect relationships can be drawn based on more testing and analysis. For instance: we study a disease, find out how it works, then design chemicals which will inhibit part of its life cycle at one of those points, and ta-da, new drug. Or sometimes we just find things that work and must be studied to find out why (like Viagra, which was discovered to have its current popular effect off of another drug, or Welbutrin which is actually a renamed anti-psychotic or anti-epileptic (?) I believe because of side effects that it has).
As for "alternative methods" of medicine... I don't know about them. My boss is a Prana healer, trained by the top healers in India (his home country... supposedly itrs a big industry there) and claims to have cured cancer and stuff, but Im still skeptical. In the Reiki field, there are actually arguments that the practitioner *must* be paid for the healings to make them work... kinda like cognitive dissonance (I paid for it, so it must be real, and it ends up working because they believe it will... aka the placebo effect, but take what you will from it). On the other hand, Chi movement can supposedly be tracked easily via a heat vision camera...
Anyway I gotta go home now... but Ill leave with this: if it works it works. If hyou want to try it, try it. I know lots of people that swear by it...
Just nit-picking now, but they way you feel about my points will have no effect on whether they are right or not. Rational inquiry is the only route to objective truth.
I would argue this. Rational inquiry only get's you so far, at which point a RADICALLY different step is needed, that of induction, which is never 100%, but is still probably more correct than say, random assumption.
Further there is the interpetation thingy too that was pointed out, which can get you in trouble in poorly performed experiments, but isn't as much of a problem in well performed experiments which measure physical phenomenon. Once you start getting to things like MENTAL experiments and psychology, interpetation becomes much more important a factor, but in pure PHYSICAL science (and thus "modern" medicine) interpetation is not entirely a problem because cause-effect relationships can be drawn based on more testing and analysis. For instance: we study a disease, find out how it works, then design chemicals which will inhibit part of its life cycle at one of those points, and ta-da, new drug. Or sometimes we just find things that work and must be studied to find out why (like Viagra, which was discovered to have its current popular effect off of another drug, or Welbutrin which is actually a renamed anti-psychotic or anti-epileptic (?) I believe because of side effects that it has).
As for "alternative methods" of medicine... I don't know about them. My boss is a Prana healer, trained by the top healers in India (his home country... supposedly itrs a big industry there) and claims to have cured cancer and stuff, but Im still skeptical. In the Reiki field, there are actually arguments that the practitioner *must* be paid for the healings to make them work... kinda like cognitive dissonance (I paid for it, so it must be real, and it ends up working because they believe it will... aka the placebo effect, but take what you will from it). On the other hand, Chi movement can supposedly be tracked easily via a heat vision camera...
Anyway I gotta go home now... but Ill leave with this: if it works it works. If hyou want to try it, try it. I know lots of people that swear by it...
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Hot baths and massage for relaxation, exercise and healthy food, preventing the overuse of antibiotics, the antiseptic effects of honey.
These are things which scientists have been saying for years. They are not 'alternative' in any way, they are in fact established medical facts. Just because they don't come in a white bottle doesn't mean they aren't mainstream.
I'm not sure what kind of image you are projecting onto me but you seem to be making me out to be some kind of nature hating nutjob. I don't advacate pill popping as a response to everything. Most of what you have described here is part of the dreaded scientific 'dogma'.
The 'friendly' bacteria yoghurt is still on uncertain grounds since almost all bacteria you ingest will be killed by the digestive process before reaching your intestines. I would add that taking a dose of artificially cultured and selectively breed bacteria doesn't sound very natural.
EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1131209091)
Written by: spherculist
eg. If i have a sore throat i'll drink hot honey and lemon. Honey is a natural antiseptic and i even went to a chemist once and they said the best thing was not to buy the products but to drink honey and lemon.
Now to me that's a simple 'alternative medicine' and it works very well.
I sometimes take lactobacillus ('friendly bacteria') for my poorly stomach. I tried to get them on prescription but couldn't. So is this an alternative medicine? Because they definitely help too. They are in your stomach anyway but some people have more than others.
What about a good massage instead of deep heat?
A nice hot bath with lavender oil instead of headache pills?
Exercise and healthy food instead of slimming pills?
Not to mention all the things that can be done with Aloe Vera...
I don't understand how anyone in their right mind can consider these things not to work???
And Jeff, the hygiene problem in hospitals is due to the over use of antibiotics.
m
Hot baths and massage for relaxation, exercise and healthy food, preventing the overuse of antibiotics, the antiseptic effects of honey.
These are things which scientists have been saying for years. They are not 'alternative' in any way, they are in fact established medical facts. Just because they don't come in a white bottle doesn't mean they aren't mainstream.
I'm not sure what kind of image you are projecting onto me but you seem to be making me out to be some kind of nature hating nutjob. I don't advacate pill popping as a response to everything. Most of what you have described here is part of the dreaded scientific 'dogma'.
The 'friendly' bacteria yoghurt is still on uncertain grounds since almost all bacteria you ingest will be killed by the digestive process before reaching your intestines. I would add that taking a dose of artificially cultured and selectively breed bacteria doesn't sound very natural.
EDITED_BY: jeff(fake) (1131209091)
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
Oh cool, so the only thing we were arguing about was a different idea of what 'alternative' meant.
I mean it as 'something your doctor won't prescribe to me'
You mean it as 'something which cannot be proven by scientific method' (forgive me if i'm putting words in your mouth)
So i think the only difficulty here lies in the fact that we are discussing this in text and not face to face.
Homeopathy certainly seems to have all but cured my terrible hayfever, reflexology has pointed out some health issues for me to deal with, orthodox medicine has helped me out, as have natural remedies.
It's all good in small doses.
m
Oh cool, so the only thing we were arguing about was a different idea of what 'alternative' meant.
I mean it as 'something your doctor won't prescribe to me'
You mean it as 'something which cannot be proven by scientific method' (forgive me if i'm putting words in your mouth)
So i think the only difficulty here lies in the fact that we are discussing this in text and not face to face.
Homeopathy certainly seems to have all but cured my terrible hayfever, reflexology has pointed out some health issues for me to deal with, orthodox medicine has helped me out, as have natural remedies.
It's all good in small doses.
m
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Funny, I prescribe relaxation, hobbies, and exercise all the time.
Most often, it's the patients who don't heed the advice.
Written by: spherculist
Oh cool, so the only thing we were arguing about was a different idea of what 'alternative' meant.
I mean it as 'something your doctor won't prescribe to me'
Funny, I prescribe relaxation, hobbies, and exercise all the time.
Most often, it's the patients who don't heed the advice.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Maybe it's another UK/USA thing?
In the UK, I've yet to encounter a GP who prescribed anything other than drugs and rigidly conventional treatments.
Some surgeries do have access to alternatives like Homeopathy, acupunture etc; but they're rare, and, whether a patient can access them on the NHS (National Health Service, ie 'free' (paid for by taxation)) is entirely down to the geographical area they live in, and therefore 'luck of the draw'.
Maybe it's another UK/USA thing?
In the UK, I've yet to encounter a GP who prescribed anything other than drugs and rigidly conventional treatments.
Some surgeries do have access to alternatives like Homeopathy, acupunture etc; but they're rare, and, whether a patient can access them on the NHS (National Health Service, ie 'free' (paid for by taxation)) is entirely down to the geographical area they live in, and therefore 'luck of the draw'.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
It just occurred to me that some unproven alternative treatments do have one characterisitc that would seem to justify their use in some circumstances.
(Anyone keen to kick off into a rant about what follows, would maybe do well to take note of those 'some's before doing so
).
Medically speaking, there's doubt about whether, for examples, homeopathy and acupunture have measurable positive effects on health.
However, that being the case, I believe it's accepted by the medical profession that they have no negative effects on health?
In the case of homeopathy, precisely the reason which leads to doubt over its effectiveness ie the fact that the 'active' ingredient is so massively diluted that it cannot be measured by scientific means; is the fact that guarantees that such a remedy cannot possibly have an adverse effect on health.
(this would not be true of all alternative medicines, for example, herbal remedies could well, in some cases, have a detrimental effect on health, as herbal remedies are basically just an alternative variety of pharmacuticals).
Take situations where a patient has a minor infection that, in the old days, prior to the awareness of the damge caused by unnecessary prescribing of antibiotics; would have been dealt with with antibiotics, even though the condition would naturally dissapear without such treatment (perhaps taking a few days longer).
In that situation, the doctor could, with a clear conscience, if the patient was a little unhappy about not recieving a pharmacutical prescription, liase with a homeopathist to select a appropriate homeopathic remedy.
In the best case scenario, the remedy actually works, but, in the worst case scenario of the remedy being inneffective, we still have the plus of no possible adverse effects, and also, a fair chance of a useful placebo effect.
It just occurred to me that some unproven alternative treatments do have one characterisitc that would seem to justify their use in some circumstances.
(Anyone keen to kick off into a rant about what follows, would maybe do well to take note of those 'some's before doing so
).Medically speaking, there's doubt about whether, for examples, homeopathy and acupunture have measurable positive effects on health.
However, that being the case, I believe it's accepted by the medical profession that they have no negative effects on health?
In the case of homeopathy, precisely the reason which leads to doubt over its effectiveness ie the fact that the 'active' ingredient is so massively diluted that it cannot be measured by scientific means; is the fact that guarantees that such a remedy cannot possibly have an adverse effect on health.
(this would not be true of all alternative medicines, for example, herbal remedies could well, in some cases, have a detrimental effect on health, as herbal remedies are basically just an alternative variety of pharmacuticals).
Take situations where a patient has a minor infection that, in the old days, prior to the awareness of the damge caused by unnecessary prescribing of antibiotics; would have been dealt with with antibiotics, even though the condition would naturally dissapear without such treatment (perhaps taking a few days longer).
In that situation, the doctor could, with a clear conscience, if the patient was a little unhappy about not recieving a pharmacutical prescription, liase with a homeopathist to select a appropriate homeopathic remedy.
In the best case scenario, the remedy actually works, but, in the worst case scenario of the remedy being inneffective, we still have the plus of no possible adverse effects, and also, a fair chance of a useful placebo effect.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Exactly what I meant actually.
The scientific meathod can prove the existance of any repeatable phenomenom, even if we don't know the causes (even if the causes are 'supernatural').
With all due respect all that can be said for certain is that your ailments cleared up whilst or near abouts when you were taking the remedies. It needs to be remembered that the bodies inherent healing systems are much more effective than anything else.
It is certainly a valid arguement. Perhaps that is what the doctors who do perscibe CAM are thinking. I'm not certain but I think doctors sometimes do prescribe placebos to people who are irrationally insisting on drugs. It would probably be best to prescibe sugar pills rather than involve the CAM industry.
Written by: spherculist
Oh cool, so the only thing we were arguing about was a different idea of what 'alternative' meant.
You mean it as 'something which cannot be proven by scientific method' (forgive me if i'm putting words in your mouth)
Exactly what I meant actually.
The scientific meathod can prove the existance of any repeatable phenomenom, even if we don't know the causes (even if the causes are 'supernatural').
Written by: sphericulist
Homeopathy certainly seems to have all but cured my terrible hayfever, reflexology has pointed out some health issues for me to deal with, orthodox medicine has helped me out, as have natural remedies.
With all due respect all that can be said for certain is that your ailments cleared up whilst or near abouts when you were taking the remedies. It needs to be remembered that the bodies inherent healing systems are much more effective than anything else.
Written by: onewheeldave
It just occurred to me that some unproven alternative treatments do have one characterisitc that would seem to justify their use in some circumstances...
Take situations where a patient has a minor infection that, in the old days, prior to the awareness of the damge caused by unnecessary prescribing of antibiotics; would have been dealt with with antibiotics, even though the condition would naturally dissapear without such treatment (perhaps taking a few days longer).
It is certainly a valid arguement. Perhaps that is what the doctors who do perscibe CAM are thinking. I'm not certain but I think doctors sometimes do prescribe placebos to people who are irrationally insisting on drugs. It would probably be best to prescibe sugar pills rather than involve the CAM industry.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
What happens when someone delays cancer treatment because they're busy taking megavitamin therapy?
And not all of these therapies are safe.
Many herbal remedies have been found to have unsafe quantities of heavy metal contaminationin them.
Megadoses of vitamin C can cause kidney stones. Megadoses of vitamin B-6 can cause peripheral nerve damage. Megadoses of vitamin A is toxic and cause severe birth defects. Saint John's Wort interferes with the metabolism of many drugs. Echinacea can cause autoimmune diseases to flare. Fish oil can interfere with anticoagulant absorption.
I could go on.
Written by: onewheeldave
However, that being the case, I believe it's accepted by the medical profession that they have no negative effects on health?
What happens when someone delays cancer treatment because they're busy taking megavitamin therapy?
And not all of these therapies are safe.
Many herbal remedies have been found to have unsafe quantities of heavy metal contaminationin them.
Megadoses of vitamin C can cause kidney stones. Megadoses of vitamin B-6 can cause peripheral nerve damage. Megadoses of vitamin A is toxic and cause severe birth defects. Saint John's Wort interferes with the metabolism of many drugs. Echinacea can cause autoimmune diseases to flare. Fish oil can interfere with anticoagulant absorption.
I could go on.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I think I made clear, in the post you're quoting, what type of scenarios I was referring to-
==================
I think I made it clear in the post you're quoting from, that I was referring to the subset of alternative remedies that are safe (eg homeopathic remedies that have scientifically unmeasurable quantities of 'active ' ingredient), whilst pointing out that-
EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1131308016)
Written by: lightning
What happens when someone delays cancer treatment because they're busy taking megavitamin therapy?
I think I made clear, in the post you're quoting, what type of scenarios I was referring to-
Written by: OneWheelDave
Take situations where a patient has a minor infection that, in the old days, prior to the awareness of the damge caused by unnecessary prescribing of antibiotics; would have been dealt with with antibiotics, even though the condition would naturally dissapear without such treatment (perhaps taking a few days longer).
==================
Written by: lightning
And not all of these therapies are safe.
Many herbal remedies have been found to have unsafe quantities of heavy metal contaminationin them.
I think I made it clear in the post you're quoting from, that I was referring to the subset of alternative remedies that are safe (eg homeopathic remedies that have scientifically unmeasurable quantities of 'active ' ingredient), whilst pointing out that-
Written by: OneWheelDave
......(this would not be true of all alternative medicines, for example, herbal remedies could well, in some cases, have a detrimental effect on health, as herbal remedies are basically just an alternative variety of pharmacuticals).
EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1131308016)
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Written by: onewheeldaveWritten by: OneWheelDave
Take situations where a patient has a minor infection that, in the old days, prior to the awareness of the damge caused by unnecessary prescribing of antibiotics; would have been dealt with with antibiotics, even though the condition would naturally dissapear without such treatment (perhaps taking a few days longer).
Well, this is an interesting one. Let's take streptococcal pharyngitis (strep throat).
Don't treat it, it goes away in 3-4 days. Treat it, you maybe gain a day or two.
So why treat it?
Because if you don't, there's a risk of developing rheumatic fever. If you do treat it, the risk is *far* lower. Almost nil, in fact.
Most bacterial infections, once established, don't resolve on their own, however.-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Well, wouldn't that be a case of an infection with potentially serious consequences then?
Whereas I was referring to non-serious infections that tend to go away of their own accord without risk of serious complications.
Maybe I'm using 'infection' in more of an everyday sense than you.
I'm sure you're not suggesting that, from a medical perspective, all minor sore throats require anti-biotics?
Because that's the kind of minor infection I was suggesting may be appropriate for 'treatment' with something unproven like homeopathy.
Well, wouldn't that be a case of an infection with potentially serious consequences then?
Whereas I was referring to non-serious infections that tend to go away of their own accord without risk of serious complications.
Maybe I'm using 'infection' in more of an everyday sense than you.
I'm sure you're not suggesting that, from a medical perspective, all minor sore throats require anti-biotics?
Because that's the kind of minor infection I was suggesting may be appropriate for 'treatment' with something unproven like homeopathy.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
No, but actually a sore throat with fever should be tested for strep and treated if positive.
No, but actually a sore throat with fever should be tested for strep and treated if positive.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
All of that is perfectly compatible with a patient being given access to a homeopathic remedy, if the test is negative.
It may even have the positive effect of more people coming into the surgery and being given the test- currently, many of those who are inclined to use alternative medicines would be disinclined to go to a GP with a sore throat, even if a fever was present.
All of that is perfectly compatible with a patient being given access to a homeopathic remedy, if the test is negative.
It may even have the positive effect of more people coming into the surgery and being given the test- currently, many of those who are inclined to use alternative medicines would be disinclined to go to a GP with a sore throat, even if a fever was present.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
My younger brother (imagine an extremist version of myself without any morals or even a passing disinclination not to offend people), is of the opinion that we should just let evolution take it's course with people who choose to use alternative medicines.
My younger brother (imagine an extremist version of myself without any morals or even a passing disinclination not to offend people), is of the opinion that we should just let evolution take it's course with people who choose to use alternative medicines.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
If the test is negative, then the patient can take balian orange peels for all I care.
I won't prescribe or recommend something without some good evidence behind it. Remember, cost is an adverse effect.
Written by: onewheeldave
All of that is perfectly compatible with a patient being given access to a homeopathic remedy, if the test is negative.
It may even have the positive effect of more people coming into the surgery and being given the test- currently, many of those who are inclined to use alternative medicines would be disinclined to go to a GP with a sore throat, even if a fever was present.
If the test is negative, then the patient can take balian orange peels for all I care.
I won't prescribe or recommend something without some good evidence behind it. Remember, cost is an adverse effect.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
453 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
453 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Posted:
Ive been haunting this thread and have stayed out til now, but feel the need to put my 1.5p worth in (although lots of it has been said by others. These are my p.o.v.s. I'm afraid I have a little problem with homeopathy. So once I read the word, I have to rant).
Warning
What people refer to as "alternative" medicine covers such a huge number of things, it is a dodgy term to use. As has been mentioned, lots of so called "alternative" treatments work (aloe vera, honey, st john's wort to name a few), but there is the world of difference between these proven methods and others such as homeopothy.
No, there is no problem with homeopathic remedies, if you don't mind spending unnecessary money on a completely ridiculous "cure". There is evidence that it does not work. And no, it would do no more harm than a sugar tablet (as that is what it is). Unless of course the person is really ill and depending on this to "cure" them, cos it won't.
Oh, unless you consider "cure" to mean the placebo effect - which is great. I'm all in favour of encouraging our own bodies to make themselves better, but there has to be a balanced argument. If the person is really ill, let's not rely on the power of thought. Let's treat with what we know works, because we have scientifically proved it.
I believe the best treatments consider a whole person approach. Which may mean advising relaxation, exercise, etc., as well as "herbal" remedies and controlled drugs (although perhaps not all at the same time....but maybe)
There is nothing to justify the NHS using homeopathic remedies (and they do, there are five homeopathic hospitals in the UK, and people reckon as many as quarter of GPs recommend homeopathy). At the end of the day, patients need to be able to make an informed decision, and being told that tablets that consist of nothing but the "vibrations" of active ingredients locked in the "memory" of water.....GRRRRrrrr, that is not informed consent to treatment. It is lying to vulnerable people.
So, no to homeopathy. No to scientific-evidence dodging "treatments". All others, alternative or not, if you can prove they work, they are fine with me.
Ho hum. Rant over.
:
Ive been haunting this thread and have stayed out til now, but feel the need to put my 1.5p worth in (although lots of it has been said by others. These are my p.o.v.s. I'm afraid I have a little problem with homeopathy. So once I read the word, I have to rant).
Warning
What people refer to as "alternative" medicine covers such a huge number of things, it is a dodgy term to use. As has been mentioned, lots of so called "alternative" treatments work (aloe vera, honey, st john's wort to name a few), but there is the world of difference between these proven methods and others such as homeopothy.
No, there is no problem with homeopathic remedies, if you don't mind spending unnecessary money on a completely ridiculous "cure". There is evidence that it does not work. And no, it would do no more harm than a sugar tablet (as that is what it is). Unless of course the person is really ill and depending on this to "cure" them, cos it won't.
Oh, unless you consider "cure" to mean the placebo effect - which is great. I'm all in favour of encouraging our own bodies to make themselves better, but there has to be a balanced argument. If the person is really ill, let's not rely on the power of thought. Let's treat with what we know works, because we have scientifically proved it.
I believe the best treatments consider a whole person approach. Which may mean advising relaxation, exercise, etc., as well as "herbal" remedies and controlled drugs (although perhaps not all at the same time....but maybe
)There is nothing to justify the NHS using homeopathic remedies (and they do, there are five homeopathic hospitals in the UK, and people reckon as many as quarter of GPs recommend homeopathy). At the end of the day, patients need to be able to make an informed decision, and being told that tablets that consist of nothing but the "vibrations" of active ingredients locked in the "memory" of water.....GRRRRrrrr, that is not informed consent to treatment. It is lying to vulnerable people.
So, no to homeopathy. No to scientific-evidence dodging "treatments". All others, alternative or not, if you can prove they work, they are fine with me.
Ho hum. Rant over.
: Boo x
I intend to live forever - so far, so good.
If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
The last three posts-
Between you you're just displayed a total lack of ability (or more likely, desire), to empaphise, relate to, or understand, those who do make use of alternatives.
I personally have no problem with that- it's been a mellow thread and I've not felt that I'm 'fighting- the-corner'for alternative medicine.
Just offering some feedback, as I feel that its basically that kind of attitude, that repels some people from using conventional medicine, when it could actually benefit them, and contributes to precisly the tradgedies you're all so keen to post about, where people do die when conventional treatment could have helped.
The last three posts-
Between you you're just displayed a total lack of ability (or more likely, desire), to empaphise, relate to, or understand, those who do make use of alternatives.
I personally have no problem with that- it's been a mellow thread and I've not felt that I'm 'fighting- the-corner'for alternative medicine.
Just offering some feedback, as I feel that its basically that kind of attitude, that repels some people from using conventional medicine, when it could actually benefit them, and contributes to precisly the tradgedies you're all so keen to post about, where people do die when conventional treatment could have helped.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
453 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
I invented the decaffinated coffee table.
453 posts
Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom
Posted:
Huh? Hang on, I think we've been pretty clear that we don't agree with sweeping all "alternative" remedies out as if they are all the same thing. They are not.
Personally, as I said, I have no problem with alternative forms of treatment (after all, what I offer as therapy is often labelled "alternative" healthcare). However, what I have a problem with is alternative medicines which are not proven to help, or worse still actually proven that it doesn't help. I think a lot of stuff about these medicines (and I'm mainly talking about homeopathy as that's what I've looked into in relation to this) is really misleading.
I do consider why people are motivated to turn away from conventional medicines. My theory is that people often think "alternative" means better for their bodies, I think it is that kind of attitude that repels people from using conventional medication when it could benefit them. This is often not the case.
I just think "alternative" medicines should have to prove their worth in the same way that "conventional" medicines do. This is because I think that there is a great deal of risk of harm if people are not given the chance to weigh all the facts.
Huh? Hang on, I think we've been pretty clear that we don't agree with sweeping all "alternative" remedies out as if they are all the same thing. They are not.
Personally, as I said, I have no problem with alternative forms of treatment (after all, what I offer as therapy is often labelled "alternative" healthcare). However, what I have a problem with is alternative medicines which are not proven to help, or worse still actually proven that it doesn't help. I think a lot of stuff about these medicines (and I'm mainly talking about homeopathy as that's what I've looked into in relation to this) is really misleading.
I do consider why people are motivated to turn away from conventional medicines. My theory is that people often think "alternative" means better for their bodies, I think it is that kind of attitude that repels people from using conventional medication when it could benefit them. This is often not the case.
I just think "alternative" medicines should have to prove their worth in the same way that "conventional" medicines do. This is because I think that there is a great deal of risk of harm if people are not given the chance to weigh all the facts.
Boo x
I intend to live forever - so far, so good.
If it costs "a penny for your thoughts", but people give you their "two-pence worth", who is getting the extra penny?
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
Science can neither prove nor disprove homeopathy.
I'm not a massive fan of it myself but i had really bad hayfever for about 15 years. I have taken every prescribed drug under the sun for it for all those years and none of them have worked for me. There was one drug i took for about 3 years which was later taken off the market because it was found to be dangerous, it was years ago and i can't recall the name of it.
I went to a reflexologist for other reasons and she told me to cut down on dairy and take Arsen Ald. homeopathic tablets. That year i had little hayfever, the year after i had virtually none. This summer i ate loads of dairy and if my hayfever got bad i took the same pills and it goes away.
Now it could be the dairy, it could be the pills, it could be a mixture of the 2 or it could be placebo. BUt i don't give a damn. Hayfever used to completely ruin my summers, my whole life i hated the summer until just a few years ago. My GP's failed me for 15 years, a reflexologist sorted me out in 1 year.
SO just cos the science doesn't exist to prove or disprove something doesn't mean that you should dismiss it. Especially if you haven't even tried it.
The memory of water thing is soooo contraversial. But i've heard about one experiment which demonstrates that crystals form quicker in water which has grown that crystal before, even after it has been diluted to homeopathic levels. Seems unbelieveable to me, but then again, it is the elixir of life So i wouldn't want to say either way.
here's some ratings i'd give to various remedies:
4/10 homeopathy (got to find a really good adviser, it's totally unique to you so it's very hard to prove or disprove in trials)
9/10 healing massage (once had a really bad leg, couldn't walk, had an increadible massage and could get up and dance for a few hours)
5/10 Reiki (most practitioners are usless but if you can find a good one it might be better)
9/10 Reflexology (had it myself and found the diagnoses 100 times better than my GP)
8/10 Iridology (never had it but a friend of mine had great results, plus it makes sense to me)
6/10 Acupuncture / Acupressure (never had it, know little about it, know a guy who used acupressure a lot and told me it's excellent)
-10 / 10 Antibiotics: Kills your gut flora, creates super bugs, handed out like sweets, definitely accellerating the exstinction of our race. Very useful in a very small number of cases.
5/10 Asperin problem here is that the more you take the more you need. Side effect seems to be more headaches. I used to take a lot, then lowered my dose and after about 5 years of taking less and less almost never get headaches.
9/10 hemp protein, love it, it's a super food and i'd recomend anyone to eat it.
5/10 St John's Wort reduces depression in the short term but becomes addictive and you get depressed when coming off it.
8/10 Slippery elm, totally sorts out upset stomachs and eating disorders
6/10 Lactobacillus seems to help stomaches but not really sure
....
Can't think of anything else i've ever taken really.
Science can neither prove nor disprove homeopathy.
I'm not a massive fan of it myself but i had really bad hayfever for about 15 years. I have taken every prescribed drug under the sun for it for all those years and none of them have worked for me. There was one drug i took for about 3 years which was later taken off the market because it was found to be dangerous, it was years ago and i can't recall the name of it.
I went to a reflexologist for other reasons and she told me to cut down on dairy and take Arsen Ald. homeopathic tablets. That year i had little hayfever, the year after i had virtually none. This summer i ate loads of dairy and if my hayfever got bad i took the same pills and it goes away.
Now it could be the dairy, it could be the pills, it could be a mixture of the 2 or it could be placebo. BUt i don't give a damn. Hayfever used to completely ruin my summers, my whole life i hated the summer until just a few years ago. My GP's failed me for 15 years, a reflexologist sorted me out in 1 year.
SO just cos the science doesn't exist to prove or disprove something doesn't mean that you should dismiss it. Especially if you haven't even tried it.
The memory of water thing is soooo contraversial. But i've heard about one experiment which demonstrates that crystals form quicker in water which has grown that crystal before, even after it has been diluted to homeopathic levels. Seems unbelieveable to me, but then again, it is the elixir of life
So i wouldn't want to say either way.here's some ratings i'd give to various remedies:
4/10 homeopathy (got to find a really good adviser, it's totally unique to you so it's very hard to prove or disprove in trials)
9/10 healing massage (once had a really bad leg, couldn't walk, had an increadible massage and could get up and dance for a few hours)
5/10 Reiki (most practitioners are usless but if you can find a good one it might be better)
9/10 Reflexology (had it myself and found the diagnoses 100 times better than my GP)
8/10 Iridology (never had it but a friend of mine had great results, plus it makes sense to me)
6/10 Acupuncture / Acupressure (never had it, know little about it, know a guy who used acupressure a lot and told me it's excellent)
-10 / 10 Antibiotics: Kills your gut flora, creates super bugs, handed out like sweets, definitely accellerating the exstinction of our race. Very useful in a very small number of cases.
5/10 Asperin problem here is that the more you take the more you need. Side effect seems to be more headaches. I used to take a lot, then lowered my dose and after about 5 years of taking less and less almost never get headaches.
9/10 hemp protein, love it, it's a super food and i'd recomend anyone to eat it.
5/10 St John's Wort reduces depression in the short term but becomes addictive and you get depressed when coming off it.
8/10 Slippery elm, totally sorts out upset stomachs and eating disorders
6/10 Lactobacillus seems to help stomaches but not really sure
....
Can't think of anything else i've ever taken really.
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
That's one factor, for some individuals.
There's many others, and, for those who are staunchly pro-conventional treatment and tend to be anti-alternative (to a greater or lesser extent), it can be difficult to understand them.
Here's a few-
1. the sheer unpleasantness involved with some conventional treatments- sometimes because some of the treatments/investigative techniques are quite invasive. Obviously, necessarily so in some cases- nevertheless, it can be a prime factor in people avioding conventional treatment.
2. In addition to 1 above, there's the long waiting times, short consultation times etc. Obviously, in the current funding climate, another unavoidable, but, nevertheless, another reason why some may look for alternatives.
3. The attitude of some orthodox practitioners i.e. 'I know better than you and will not deign to waste time addressing any concerns you have, other than what I think you need to know.
I've got friends who, when asking their doctor about alternatives to the treatment he was suggesting, where called 'an idiot'
Practitioners like this may be in a minority (though, judging from the number of complaints we hear, and from my experiences, it's not a small minority), but they really do damage the reputation of the profession as a whole.
4. Conventional treatment often does not work, occasionally makes things worse, and sometimes results in high profile cases of mistreatment. Just as the pro-conventionalists are concerned when alternative treatments lead to worsening, or even abuse; so others are quite aware that conventional medicine can be damaging as well.
5. Perhaps most importantly, and the point I mentioned earlier. is that many who use alternatives have a very different world view to that assumed by the medical profession- for them it's not 'life at all costs', many will not have treatment above a certain level of invasiveness, even if to not do so, in the eyes of conventional medicine, will result in their death.
(I'll point out as well, that it's seen as significant that some of those who refuse treatment, and who are effectively told by the medical profession that they are going to die; sometimes stibbornley refuse to do so )
A further gripe where this is concerned is that the medical profession, in those cases, rather than committing time and funds to investigating whether alternative treatment was a factor, will simply class it as 'spontaneous remmision' and leave it at that).
That makes sense; however, to many who use alternative treatments, 'proof' of that kind is not a priority.
Some are suspicious of the process by which conventional treatments are proven; partly because they have witnessed examples where conventional treatments seem to have damaged people they know, partly because they know that the process's main aim is profit for the pharmacutical companies; partly because they know that that 'profit driven' attitude has led to exploitation in third world countries who are denied vital drugs because they can't afford it- and a host of other factors.
ie, they see, what is, in their eyes, a 'bigger picture'- they simply don't care about,or require, the kind of proof you are talking about.
They live their lives, they draw their own conclusions- some will be ripped off, stitched-up, let down, damaged, even die; others will prosper.
Nothing I've seen or heard convinces me that they will necessarily do worse than some of those who stick to orthodox treatments.
Written by:
I do consider why people are motivated to turn away from conventional medicines. My theory is that people often think "alternative" means better for their bodies, I think it is that kind of attitude that repels people from using conventional medication when it could benefit them. This is often not the case.
That's one factor, for some individuals.
There's many others, and, for those who are staunchly pro-conventional treatment and tend to be anti-alternative (to a greater or lesser extent), it can be difficult to understand them.
Here's a few-
1. the sheer unpleasantness involved with some conventional treatments- sometimes because some of the treatments/investigative techniques are quite invasive. Obviously, necessarily so in some cases- nevertheless, it can be a prime factor in people avioding conventional treatment.
2. In addition to 1 above, there's the long waiting times, short consultation times etc. Obviously, in the current funding climate, another unavoidable, but, nevertheless, another reason why some may look for alternatives.
3. The attitude of some orthodox practitioners i.e. 'I know better than you and will not deign to waste time addressing any concerns you have, other than what I think you need to know.
I've got friends who, when asking their doctor about alternatives to the treatment he was suggesting, where called 'an idiot'
Practitioners like this may be in a minority (though, judging from the number of complaints we hear, and from my experiences, it's not a small minority), but they really do damage the reputation of the profession as a whole.
4. Conventional treatment often does not work, occasionally makes things worse, and sometimes results in high profile cases of mistreatment. Just as the pro-conventionalists are concerned when alternative treatments lead to worsening, or even abuse; so others are quite aware that conventional medicine can be damaging as well.
5. Perhaps most importantly, and the point I mentioned earlier. is that many who use alternatives have a very different world view to that assumed by the medical profession- for them it's not 'life at all costs', many will not have treatment above a certain level of invasiveness, even if to not do so, in the eyes of conventional medicine, will result in their death.
(I'll point out as well, that it's seen as significant that some of those who refuse treatment, and who are effectively told by the medical profession that they are going to die; sometimes stibbornley refuse to do so
)A further gripe where this is concerned is that the medical profession, in those cases, rather than committing time and funds to investigating whether alternative treatment was a factor, will simply class it as 'spontaneous remmision' and leave it at that).
Written by:
....................However, what I have a problem with is alternative medicines which are not proven to help, or worse still actually proven that it doesn't help. I think a lot of stuff about these medicines (and I'm mainly talking about homeopathy as that's what I've looked into in relation to this) is really misleading.
..........................
I just think "alternative" medicines should have to prove their worth in the same way that "conventional" medicines do. This is because I think that there is a great deal of risk of harm if people are not given the chance to weigh all the facts.
That makes sense; however, to many who use alternative treatments, 'proof' of that kind is not a priority.
Some are suspicious of the process by which conventional treatments are proven; partly because they have witnessed examples where conventional treatments seem to have damaged people they know, partly because they know that the process's main aim is profit for the pharmacutical companies; partly because they know that that 'profit driven' attitude has led to exploitation in third world countries who are denied vital drugs because they can't afford it- and a host of other factors.
ie, they see, what is, in their eyes, a 'bigger picture'- they simply don't care about,or require, the kind of proof you are talking about.
They live their lives, they draw their own conclusions- some will be ripped off, stitched-up, let down, damaged, even die; others will prosper.
Nothing I've seen or heard convinces me that they will necessarily do worse than some of those who stick to orthodox treatments.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
is a medium/large scary man
420 posts
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Milky Way...
is a medium/large scary man
420 posts
Location: Victoria, Australia, Earth, Milky Way...
Posted:
It is excellent! It should be about an 11/10... (and yes I know thats not possible lol) I've had acupuncture on my back and knees after trying "conventional" medicine for about a year and a half, and acupuncture wins hands down... three treatments and I'm back to my old twirling self again...
Cheers, Moka
(PS: I may be a little bit biassed... I'm actually doing an acupuncture course next year Thats how impressed I was... lol )
Written by: spherculist
6/10 Acupuncture / Acupressure (never had it, know little about it, know a guy who used acupressure a lot and told me it's excellent)
It is excellent! It should be about an 11/10... (and yes I know thats not possible lol) I've had acupuncture on my back and knees after trying "conventional" medicine for about a year and a half, and acupuncture wins hands down... three treatments and I'm back to my old twirling self again...
Cheers, Moka
(PS: I may be a little bit biassed... I'm actually doing an acupuncture course next year
Thats how impressed I was... lol ) Contact juggling was invented by dung beetles.
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
Cool then Moka, 11/10 it is then Glad it did the trick for you. LIke i said, i've never had it but hear it's very good. THe scincey skeptics around here put me off a while ago but that was the first and only bad thing i'd ever heard about it.
m
Cool then Moka, 11/10 it is then
Glad it did the trick for you. LIke i said, i've never had it but hear it's very good. THe scincey skeptics around here put me off a while ago but that was the first and only bad thing i'd ever heard about it.m
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
Quite the contrary. Science can both prove or dispove homeopathy, depending on whether it actually works or not. We have shown on this thread how anything having any kind of effect for any reason will be picked up in a double blind trial. Unless you are argueing that the universe somehow magically contrives in this one instance in all of space and time, defying all reason and logic, to twart mathamatical analyis then the only conclusion is that science can be used to prove or disprove homeopathy (if you are argueing for the magical solution, and I'm not sure you are, then frankly you are stupid). As it happens science has disproved homeopathy, but its adherents still cling to it, once and for all demonstrating Bejamin Franklin's famous quote:
"There are no bigger liers that the peddlers of snake oil, exept their customers."
I appreciate that you aren't being dishonest out of malicousness, but the net result is the same.
Written by: spherculist
Science can neither prove nor disprove homeopathy.
Quite the contrary. Science can both prove or dispove homeopathy, depending on whether it actually works or not. We have shown on this thread how anything having any kind of effect for any reason will be picked up in a double blind trial. Unless you are argueing that the universe somehow magically contrives in this one instance in all of space and time, defying all reason and logic, to twart mathamatical analyis then the only conclusion is that science can be used to prove or disprove homeopathy (if you are argueing for the magical solution, and I'm not sure you are, then frankly you are stupid). As it happens science has disproved homeopathy, but its adherents still cling to it, once and for all demonstrating Bejamin Franklin's famous quote:
"There are no bigger liers that the peddlers of snake oil, exept their customers."
I appreciate that you aren't being dishonest out of malicousness, but the net result is the same.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
BRONZE Member
A Fire Inside
191 posts
Location: portsmouth and sometimes oxford, United Kingdom
A Fire Inside
191 posts
Location: portsmouth and sometimes oxford, United Kingdom
Posted:
hello all i saw was science vs nature and i wanted to give you my informed opinion so i could add to your debate...i really love nature
hello all i saw was science vs nature and i wanted to give you my informed opinion so i could add to your debate...i really love nature
::: I LiKe pLeAsUrE sPiKeD wItH pAiN - MuSiC iS mY aErOpLaNe :::
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Jeff- Are you not concerned that your aggressive and derisory tone is totally alienating the very people you're trying to convince?
Despite the fact that I've been posting in defense of alternatives and homeopathy, here's a link which presents the arguments against homeopathy in a dignified and calm manner- I trust it will meet with your approval?
https://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=6
Written by: jeff(fake)Written by: spherculist
Science can neither prove nor disprove homeopathy.
Quite the contrary. Science can both prove or dispove homeopathy, depending on whether it actually works or not. We have shown on this thread how anything having any kind of effect for any reason will be picked up in a double blind trial. Unless you are argueing that the universe somehow magically contrives in this one instance in all of space and time, defying all reason and logic, to twart mathamatical analyis then the only conclusion is that science can be used to prove or disprove homeopathy (if you are argueing for the magical solution, and I'm not sure you are, then frankly you are stupid). As it happens science has disproved homeopathy, but its adherents still cling to it, once and for all demonstrating Bejamin Franklin's famous quote:
"There are no bigger liers that the peddlers of snake oil, exept their customers."
I appreciate that you aren't being dishonest out of malicousness, but the net result is the same.
Jeff- Are you not concerned that your aggressive and derisory tone is totally alienating the very people you're trying to convince?
Despite the fact that I've been posting in defense of alternatives and homeopathy, here's a link which presents the arguments against homeopathy in a dignified and calm manner- I trust it will meet with your approval?
https://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=6
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Scientist of Fortune
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
1,189 posts
Location: Edinburgh
Posted:
I quite agree with you Dave. I admit I lose my cool sometimes when folks are making elementary errors which we've corrected time and time again.
I quite agree with you Dave. I admit I lose my cool sometimes when folks are making elementary errors which we've corrected time and time again.
According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Probably just an accident of phrasing, which I'm sure you can see could be misinterpreted, but, concerning the 'we've corrected...'- I'll just reiterate that, in this thread, I've been mainly defending aspects of the alternative medicine community
You're right of course, it's easy to get annoyed by repeated postings of opinions you've addressed previously, but, as the rational individual, it's down to you to go the extra step, and keep your calm, rather than waste your energy composing a post that, being hostile, simply alientates the people you're trying to benefit.
That's how I look at it anyway, and I very frequently find myself tackling stuff which I've felt I've previously gone to a lot of trouble to clarify, so I do know how you feel; but, reacting in a needlessly hostile way really is counter-productive, and invariably prompts an equally,or more, hostile response.
Written by: jeff(fake)
I quite agree with you Dave. I admit I lose my cool sometimes when folks are making elementary errors which we've corrected time and time again.
Probably just an accident of phrasing, which I'm sure you can see could be misinterpreted, but, concerning the 'we've corrected...'- I'll just reiterate that, in this thread, I've been mainly defending aspects of the alternative medicine community
You're right of course, it's easy to get annoyed by repeated postings of opinions you've addressed previously, but, as the rational individual, it's down to you to go the extra step, and keep your calm, rather than waste your energy composing a post that, being hostile, simply alientates the people you're trying to benefit.
That's how I look at it anyway, and I very frequently find myself tackling stuff which I've felt I've previously gone to a lot of trouble to clarify, so I do know how you feel; but, reacting in a needlessly hostile way really is counter-productive, and invariably prompts an equally,or more, hostile response.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Similar Topics
Using the keywords [science v * nature] we found the following existing topics.
- Forums > Science Vs Nature [113 replies]
Show more..
© 1998 - 2024 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com