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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Ok a lot of you dont know but I have been suffering horrible postnatal depression, and to help to alliaviate the symptoms Phaerie kindly offered some aucpunture. I must admit I was a bit nervous about how much it would hurt and the type of reaction I may have to it, but I am here to say if you have never had it you should TRY it.

I floated out of Phaeries treatment room. She was damn good at what she does and I can quite honestly say that I haven't felt as light and relaxed and free as I did this morning in a very very long time.

I found it easier to breathe, that tight ball of anxiety was gone, I felt chirpy and I even sung at the top of my lungs on the way home.

I felt my panic ebb away and can honestly say that the pins didnt even hurt! I didnt feel them go in, I felt a wee bit of tingling where the pins were placed but that was it.

amazing! Totally mindblowing experience.

Phaerie, you were born to be a healer beautiful girl. Heres me blabbering away as Im feeling all this tension leave my body and you took it all in your stride.


anyone here have acupunture? how did you find it? how did it work for you? hug


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:I would love that greensox! Im sure that Phaerie would be a good resource as well!~!

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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greensox
greensox

newbie
Location: Northants, England
Member Since: 25th Sep 2005
Total posts: 21
Posted:Awh Thanks, Ill stick this thread in my faves so I can come back to it, hug

Feel good saying of the week :

*Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission*

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Phaerie
Phaerie

veteran
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 10th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1240
Posted:more than happy to give more info about stuph if you need it greensox smile

Only when you close your eyes can you really see...

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Accupuncture is a problem when it comes to studies.

How do you do a control?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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JauntyJames
JauntyJames

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA
Member Since: 22nd Dec 2004
Total posts: 3533
Posted:Um, surely you would do a control the same way as with everything else, wouldn't you? One group receives acupuncture, the other doesn't. Oh, I suppose you meant you couldn't use a placebo. I'd heard somewhere (there's a reliable source for ya, "somewhere") that there is a way of putting in the needles so they don't really go in. This sounds a little dodgy to me, I'd think I'd be able to tell whether or not I had three inch needles sticking in me, but I suppose it doesn't sound any dodgier than acupuncture itself.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I'd like to see some sort of placebo, but it's probably just not doable.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:could you do acupuncture when people were under anesthisia? I know that sounds really weird, but it solves the control problem assuming it still works....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:er, how about:
One group is given acupuncture
The other has needles stuck in random points on the body?

or, test on animals.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Phaerie
Phaerie

veteran
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 10th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1240
Posted:this is a big problem within acupuncture, mainly

a) because putting needles in anywhere on the body can have some effect (no matter how small)

b) acupuncture is most effective when you have the treatment tailored to you specifically (not having points a, b and c for all patients etc)

c) unable to single blind effectively let along double blind

d) most of the studies that are done for acupuncture use VERY inappropriate points for what they are trying to achieve

e) not performed by qualified acupuncturists (dont by physios or GP's)



SO all in all, basicaly what im saying is the majority of research that exists out there for acupuncture is really really bad.



but slowly this is being improved. i think that the way forward in acupuncture research is working on specific points and dealing with them rather than specific conditions. for example there is a point on the leg (st36) which has strong connections with the stomach, when needled it increases the peristalsis and secretion of gastric juices. Needle another point around that area but not right on the point and it will not have that effect on the body. another example of point research would be the point p6 on the wrist. if needled when someone is having a heart attack and that heart is fibrilating it will relax the muscle and reduce the amount of damage done from lack of oxygen.

i think that by going through and doing similar things for all the points, having something that is "scientifically" measurable. whether they understand why its happening or not, they are still able to say, "yes i can see it increases gastric secretions by x%" etc etc

am i making any sense to people who were questioning it?



as for performing studies on people with particular diseases to test the effectiveness of acupuncture, it is VERY hard to have it so it will stand up to scrutiny.

BECAUSE

for acupuncture to be most effective a full history has to be taken and a treatment tailored accordingly. just because you have a headache doesnt mean that you can use a particular point every time for it to work. the head ache might be caused by 10 different things in 10 different people. so point 1 will work for 1 or 2 people but not all 10.

so if someone wanted to treat say asthma with acupuncture for a study, there are a small group of points that may be used for each patient, but in general each treatment will be completely different which makes it very hard to have control and consistancy.



as for blinding, it is not possible to blind the practitioner to the treatment, as if they are qualified and know what they are doing they will be able to look at the points selected and know whether it will be effective in the treatment of whatever condition it is.

as for patient blinding, there is a new needle that they have developed that supposedly doesnt penetrate the skin, but still this isnt that great, as it still stimulates that particular point (in effect turns it from acupuncture to acupressure).

the other option for blinding the patient is choosing "nonpoints" but even this can have an effect on the patient. this is probably the biggest problem within acupuncture research.

Written by: Kyrian


could you do acupuncture when people were under anesthisia? I know that sounds really weird, but it solves the control problem assuming it still works....



acupuncture has actually been used as anesthesia, brain surgery has been performed with nothing to prevent the pain cept acupuncture. it is also an alternative when getting dental work done. i know several people who have had it, and claimed they felt nothing cept a strange sensation when having root canals done.

however, i would suspect that acupuncture wouldnt be as effective if someone was "under". but thats just my opinion, nothing to back that up.



feel like im rambling.



if anyone wants to know more about this PM me. dont want to bore everyone anymore!


Only when you close your eyes can you really see...

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:boring schmoring!
that was wonderfully written.
i understood every word!
smile wink
yay.


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:When you say brain surgery has been done just under acupuncture do you mean the whole procedure? Because the brain itself won't feel any pain as far as I know...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Phaerie
Phaerie

veteran
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 10th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1240
Posted:no, i mean that instead of an injected anaesthesia it was induced by acupuncture.



had to laugh, the definition of anaesthesia on dictionary.com

Total or partial loss of sensation, especially tactile sensibility, induced by disease, injury, acupuncture, or an anesthetic, such as chloroform or nitrous oxide.



go acupuncture :P

EDITED_BY: Phaerie (1127822239)


Only when you close your eyes can you really see...

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:woo!
one day at school they showed us this video of this western dr being shown around a chinese hospital (where they use both western medicine and tcm (trad. chinese med.) intergratedly.. anyway, there was this one scene where they actually had a lady having brain surgery and she had just one needle in her for the anesthesia, and she was talking to this guy while they were poking and prodding and doing whatever they do to people who have brain surgery...
was pretty cool...
-dances-


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:You don't need any anaesthesia for brain surgery, the brain doesn't have any pain receptors.

http://www.hospitalnews.com/modules/magazines/mag.asp?ID=3&IID=57&AID=723
br>
All you'd need anaesthesia for is opening the skull up, which is why I was asking whether acupuncture was used for that...


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Phaerie
Phaerie

veteran
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 10th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1240
Posted:and yes, that is what the acupuncture was used for.

Only when you close your eyes can you really see...

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shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted::P
wink


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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i8beefy2
i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA
Member Since: 24th Mar 2003
Total posts: 674
Posted:On aside note, the guy who pioneered a lot of neuroscience by poking at the brain of a conscious individual with eneltric probes and asking what happened, actually underwent the procedure himself. Once the skull has been opened, there is no reason for anesthesia since the brain has no pain receptors.

But it's wierd as hell to see a guy with his head open, and recounting how a certain spot being poked illicited a certain smell / memory or whatever. Very wierd indeed.


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