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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I just got this E-mail this morning.
---------------------------------
FDA Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee:
Bush Selection Favors Prayer for PMS, and opposes the Use of Contraception by Unmarried Women.


President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist, and sources told Time magazine (see article below from Time, "Jesus and theFDA") that in his private practice he will not prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. He is also the author of a book, As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now which amongst other things suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying.

The Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee is responsible for offering expert scientific and medical advice to the FDA on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology, and related specialties. The committee's responsibilities include all contraceptive drugs and drugs used in performing medical abortion as well as drugs used for infertility
treatments, hormone replacement therapy and labor and delivery.
--------------------------------------------------------

Hoboy...this is not looking very good at all.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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TheBovrilMonkey
TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England
Member Since: 3rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 2629
Posted:Fair enough, I'd forgotten that you're a fair way away from your books at the moment.
I'm sure I can wait a while and carry on discussing it when you've got access to your books again.
I'd be very surprised if there were no other religion threads popping up to remind us later.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Dirty Marmite Spider
Dirty Marmite Spider

Climbing up my leg
Location: England
Member Since: 17th Sep 2002
Total posts: 141
Posted:Post deleted by Dirty Marmite Spider

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:I'd write more, but I gotta head out. Ray: "Only one person in the history of earth is perfect" You're talking about Jesus? He wasn't, he had loads of flaws. Jesus existed and was just another man and there's historical evidence that he misbehaved and slept around. There's also evidence that he moved to France and fathered a big family. The evidence is all 2000 years old and has been tampered with to suit various people's needs.

Anyway, how about this. I am potentially as important, perfect, powerful and spiritually brilliant as Jesus. He and I are true equals. Why? Because Jesus says so. Read the Bible, he says he's the son of God, and he tells me I'm also a son of God. QED.


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toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:Hey Bovril,

a couple of examples of the bible being historically accurate have been validated by using other religions written records as well. The great flood, for example, is corroborated by several of the oriental religions.

I do find it funny that the Christian researchers used other religions text to validate the historical accuracy of the bible. Who is to say the other religions are not valid?

In the end, though, this shouldn't be about religion. It should be about whether or not an individual has the capacity to understand the ramifications of their actions, and a willingness to include the wellfare of others that don't share the same views. IMO Hagar does not care about non-fundamentalist christians. I know many Christians that are pro choice, and pro birth control, however, their views will get ignored, too.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Stone:
If ya take the bible literally, as for example with creationism, then the bible is full of fairy tales.actually ray quotes the creation as one of the steadfast FACTS in the bible in this thread the universe (creation and religion hi-jack)

and ray - you can't accuse dom of only having book smarts when you yourself do not want to argue your point without your precious books. i see no balance whatsoever on your side of the argument.

if muslim doctor was at the centre of this debate would you be defending his religion-biased medical advice as strongly?

lastly i'd like to know a couple of things that i don't think are too personal given the topic of discussion here, although i know you will refrain from answering them if you feel they are inappropriate or may contradict your argument - have you or any of your loved ones ever been seriously ill, and if so how did you/they treat your/their illness?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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DTKB
member
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Member Since: 1st Sep 2001
Total posts: 54
Posted:Is anyone surprised at this coming from George W. Bush? I for one am not. He has proven himself, time and again to be an incompetent, redneck bigot who plays the puppet for all his advisors well.

A man who, quite frankly, became President through non-democratic actions in the supposed role model of democracies.

Perhaps we should re-classify Viagra and prescribe the Bible for impotency.

Yours Truly,

DTKB


DTKB

Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, But by the moments that take our breath away.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Dom, I suppose you wanted to get a rise out of me, but you failed. I never laughed so hard in my life... well maybe with the exception of those idiots that C@ntus posted on hehehe.

Dom your a moron, I think you should just go sit down and be quiet before you hurt yourself. I hear tendonitise (sp) is quite painfull.

It doesnt matter what religion this Dr. is, he should and does have the right and freedome to practice it how he feels as long as he does not break any written law.

The populous on this board is so open minded when it comes to whichcraft and Wicca but when someone mentions Christianity they are right winged hate full spawns of Satan.

Personally I feel there is a strong differance in Catholisisim and Christianity. I pray to God, not to a priest who then prays to Mary and then prays to Jesus who then tells God.

Very few Christian preachers/ministers/priests whatever it is you want to call them, have rapped little boys or what have you. Infact hardly any have taken a vow of abstinance (whatever). In fact all the ones that I have ever known, have families some of I am friends with.

The question about my loved ones, before answering that allow me to make something clear...
Faith, Prayer and medicine all heal. God has given us faith and prayer and the knowlege to use medicine.

Very few members of my family have ever lived through their deseases, some never new they had them others are incurable by medical standerds. They lived their lives, it was their time to go. If God wants you to die, for whatever reason, you are going to die and nothing can save you!

There is nothing wrong with birthcontrole, never said there was, however premeridal sex, I do believe is wrong. I do not however believe that anyone has the right to decide what lives or dies.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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falloutboy
falloutboy

remember
Location: Melbourne, Australia, Earth, M...
Member Since: 7th Mar 2002
Total posts: 433
Posted:Ray,

as mentioned before, it is impossible to prove, or disprove the existence of God (at least while you/we are alive).

It is however, your right to believe in whatever you will, and that's fine. 'Faith' is belief not based on proof. The problem that is occuring, is that you beleive so strongly, that it has clouded out the fact that there are INFINITE possibilites to this existence. Beleiving in one possibility is fine, but in doing so you must try not to disbelieve all others. You need to accept them as being possible, and show respect for those who follow them.

Religion is the following of "a set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader'. Now, i may not be a spiritual leader, but i have my own beliefs which i follow, and i'd expect you to accept that - as i accept yours - and not discount them as false. They are just as likely to be as "true" (whatever that is) as your own. The only difference being, that many people share your beliefs.

Maybe they're -all- true, and we're -all- right? Maybe truth lies only in the mind of the believer.


-As angels debate chance and fate-
i was riding through melbourne on a midget giraffe, things were peachy.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:In 1965 the U. S. Supreme Court ruled that a woman can not be prevented from obtianing birth control (Griswold v. Connecticut)...

Justice Goldberg states (about birth control): "the Ninth Amendment expressly recognizes, there are fundamental personal rights such as this one, which are protected from abridgment by the Government though not specifically mentioned in the Constitution."

[Also, I kinda frown upon the sentence "Dom, your a moron" not only because it's spelled wrong but because it's a direct personal attack. I know that Dom can take it but it's something that I hate to see on HoP. But that's just me...]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Kali
member
Location: Berlin, Germany
Member Since: 29th Apr 2002
Total posts: 577
Posted:Here's a couple of my thoughts on the matter:

It is really upsetting to me that a man is getting this position and I feel slighted as a woman that the government doesn't seem to think we're capable of handling reproduction when we've been doing it pretty much since the beginning of time. Besides that, it's not a doctor's job to prostelatize or morally judge his patients. I don't have a problem with him suggesting to his patients that they pray. A healthy spiritual life has been proven time and again to improve physical health.

I worked in social model detox and primary care, which was based on the AA spiritual model. My job was to review the first 3 steps of AA with the women in the center - the 2nd and 3rd of which are based on finding and developing a spiritual belief. BUT, its wrong for this guy to tell his patients what god to pray to and denying other treatment. All I could and would say to my residents was that they had to develop their own connection (and yes, Ray if someone decided that Christianity was what worked them, I still supported and encouraged it even though it isn't what I chose).

Another point I wanted to make was that I had a severe hormone imbalance and was on birth control for about 5 years. The symptoms I had included cramps so severe I couldn't breathe or get out of bed for days, irregular periods, and other stuff but I'll leave the gory details out. I didn' t have sex for about a year after being put on it. So, should I have been denied birth control even though I wasn't using it for sexual purposes. And for the record, I did pray for my cramps to go away. I prayed a lot and cried. They still came and stayed. The only thing that changed it was medication. I also did acupuncture and herbs when I got off birth control and haven't had a problem since then (I still take the herbs). So I'd just like to say that having a spiritual component to your life is a wonderful and healthy thing that can enhance your physical well being, but I don't think it can be the only means through which you maintain it.


Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:NYC, the attack was a personal one on Dom. However his direct assult and slander on my religion... lets just say that "moron" or howeve you spell it, is pretty darn polite. I could care less about what you or anyone thinks of my spelling. Perhaps you should teach grammer instead of chem. Then again I am a product of the American Public Education System!!

Lastly, yes a woman has the right to birth controle, the same as I have the right to buy, sell, possess and use weapons.

I am not arguing that this Dr. is probably not doing the best thing business wise, heck I think that he would make money if he pushed the drugs. Maybe it's not about that, maybe this guy thinks that he can reach women through his practice. You the so called open minded ones (generalised) should be more than accepting of his willingness and boldness to share his religion.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray,

He's not sharing his religion, he's forcing it.

What if you went to a doctor who told you that because he was a Mormon, he would not treat you unless you swore off caffeine?

This is the same. And often patients don't have a choice of physicians.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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fireboy
An angry young man with a passon for metal
Location: Wagga Wagga, N.S.W, Australia
Member Since: 23rd Dec 2000
Total posts: 252
Posted:My best guess what G.bush is thinking:

SINGLE MOTHERS ARE THE NEXT TERRORIST.

sorry i hat g.bush too.
stupid steriotypical president


Fireboy

<<SINister miNISister>>
remeber kids jesus slaves

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Ohh and the be muslim or die type thing isnt forcing? I know you dont want to get into that, it is far too easy to attack someone at home.

I recomend that you read "Jesus Freaks" compiled by DC Talk, that is a book of Martyrs stories. I would say that 70% happen from Muslim countries and that quite a few happen within the last decade!! In retrospeck what is happening here with this doc is nothing compared to what happens in the big picture.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Kali
member
Location: Berlin, Germany
Member Since: 29th Apr 2002
Total posts: 577
Posted:Yeah, but Ray, its all these things like what's happening with the doc that make up the big picture.

Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.

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Jade Lynx
member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...
Member Since: 19th May 2002
Total posts: 239
Posted:Raymond, the one comment i will make on the relative tolerance shown to Wicca and to Christianity on these boards is:

I have yet to see a Wiccan try to convince anyone else that Wicca is the only Way or to convince anyone to become Wiccan, and i have yet to see any Wiccan claim that anything is true because it was written down in a Wiccan text. In fact, i've never seen a Wiccan claim that God (whatever the term means to whomever) wants anyone to do or not do any specific thing. I don't just mean that i haven't seen it on these boards, i mean that i haven't seen it in 21 years of spending lots of time on a regular basis around Wiccans from a variety of traditions.

I am glad that you have a good relationship with your vision of God. I am glad that Dr. Hager has a good relationship with his vision of God.
What i'm saying is that it is not appropriate for a public health official to impose their personal morals on the public through their position. The separation of church and state is in the First Amendment. Not the the Third. Not the seventh.
The FIRST Amendment...

Jesus hasn't said a word to me yet. If He wants me, He'll let me know.
But i'm sure he loves you, because you love Him. He very good that way.

[ 11. November 2002, 18:39: Message edited by: Jade Lynx ]


We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Hrmm... I hate to play the "let's pick on Ray" game because it can only serve to make someone more defensive but I did have a few questions as I was sitting on the 6 train on my way home. And actually, in order to aleviate the "gang up on Ray" sentiments, I'm gonna just keep my comments and questions individual, rather than building on others ideas...

If I find the bible offensive, is that necessarily an attack on you? Because if it is, that seems unfair to me actually.

I think that because a philosophy is your religion and religion is your God and God is fundamental to your soul and persona... it makes any "philispopical difference of opinion" with you automatically escalate into a personal attack on your fundamental existance.

To use a silly example. If I say "gee I really like blue glowsticks" it is still open for discussion. Someone can offer differing opinions or critique blue glowsticks without it relating to me. But if I say "blue glowsticks are my God and represent Truth" it has created an automatic trigger. One can no longer speak out against or offer critique of blue glowsticks without attacking me directly because you are attacking my Truth and God.

I, personally, have no Truth. There is no philosophy, scientific or religious, that acts as my God. Therefore I can debate these things as independant of my own soul. I can debate the successes of modern medicine while others believe that alternative medicine is more effective that there is one Truth. I have OPINIONS obviously... but none of them are automatically defined as my God and inalienable Truth.

Since you do have an unwavering Truth in your life, it seems pointless to discuss it. Doesn't it?

I guess to fall back on my original point: Is debating with you about or critiquing the bible or religion automatically an attack on you? Because if it is, then it's not something I care to do.

[OK, I read over my post three times. If there was anything offensive or attacking, please reread it cuz it wasn't written that way by me. The only possible offense you could take would POSSIBLY be the link between worshiping a blue glowstick and your religion which was there ONLY to pick such a silly example that no one could possibly take offense.]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Wow, NYC I understand what you mean I really do. I am sure that you do not bring your views on there is no truth into the classroom, not only would it be unprofessional, but it would solidify my facorite quote from Thomas Jefferson, "The philosiphy in the school room in one gerneration will be the philosiphy of the government in the next." If you were to teach the no truth no religion philosiphy of yours you would undermind the very reason that this country was founded.

Never have I ever seen anyone who pracices wicca or witchcraft ever try to convince someone to swap sides. Why? I have no clue. I have no problem with anyone no matter what religion or lack of religion they are. Like I have said in a past post one of my friends a damn good friend at that, considers himself a warlock.

This Doc is not forcing his religion on anyone, not to the point of do this or die. We live in a modern world where in the US 80% of the homes have the internet and 95% have phones. If anybody really wanted to they could get a second opinion. What town is this guy from that he is the only OBGY in 350 miles? (350 is a 4 hour drive + or - a few variables) I can not believe that in our modern day in time that if somebody didnt like what he said couldnt find a Wal* Mart or another drug store and buy some medicine. I think that alot of you are making a big deal about nothing. It's not like we are talking about the only Doc within 1000 miles as if he were in a remote part of Alaska or anything.

Please, us sitting here some complaining some defending wont accomplish anything here online.

Just like waving white flags around wont stop a war.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
This Doc is not forcing his religion on anyone, not to the point of do this or die. Death need not be the forcing point of religion, Ray. Health, not necessarily death, also makes a great threat.

With this man in charge of the reproductive health division of the FDA he has the ability to force his religious beliefs on an entire nation, and that chills me to the bone.

Because in my religion, abortion is not only permitted under certain circumstances, it's required under certain circumstances.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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AardvarkOnAcid
member
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Member Since: 5th Jul 2002
Total posts: 92
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Ohh and the be muslim or die type thing isnt forcing? 1. How is this relevant to the discussion?

2. Where exactly are you getting this from? It is not only in direct contradiction with the Quran but I've yet to hear even the most rabid fundies spout it.

Stop putting up straw men.


Is that all life comes down to? To be lying face down with an overenthusiastic guy in pink pin-striped pants sitting on top of you and grunting? -- Random MusingsSex, Drugs and Psytrance.

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AardvarkOnAcid
member
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Member Since: 5th Jul 2002
Total posts: 92
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Wow, NYC I understand what you mean I really do. I am sure that you do not bring your views on there is no truth into the classroom, not only would it be unprofessional, but it would solidify my facorite quote from Thomas Jefferson, "The philosiphy in the school room in one gerneration will be the philosiphy of the government in the next." If you were to teach the no truth no religion philosiphy of yours you would undermind the very reason that this country was founded.

And why was this country founded exactly? I recall something about independance from a monarchy an ocean away.

Never have I ever seen anyone who pracices wicca or witchcraft ever try to convince someone to swap sides. Why? I have no clue. I have no problem with anyone no matter what religion or lack of religion they are. Like I have said in a past post one of my friends a damn good friend at that, considers himself a warlock.

Do you think this friend will go to hell? Is not magic and witchcraft a sin in the bible? Does "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" ring any bells? Or do you disregard the portions of the bible that are inconvenient?

This Doc is not forcing his religion on anyone, not to the point of do this or die. We live in a modern world where in the US 80% of the homes have the internet and 95% have phones. If anybody really wanted to they could get a second opinion. What town is this guy from that he is the only OBGY in 350 miles? (350 is a 4 hour drive + or - a few variables) I can not believe that in our modern day in time that if somebody didnt like what he said couldnt find a Wal* Mart or another drug store and buy some medicine. I think that alot of you are making a big deal about nothing. It's not like we are talking about the only Doc within 1000 miles as if he were in a remote part of Alaska or anything.

By law, you can't buy birth control pills without a prescription. So no, you can't just go to a wall mart and buy some pills.

Please, us sitting here some complaining some defending wont accomplish anything here online.

Just like waving white flags around wont stop a war.

What the hell does this have to do with questioning the competance of a federal appointee?


Is that all life comes down to? To be lying face down with an overenthusiastic guy in pink pin-striped pants sitting on top of you and grunting? -- Random MusingsSex, Drugs and Psytrance.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Shucks Ray, you missed my question. I even wrote it twice... Perhaps you didn't think it was an honest question but it sincerely was: Does a critique of the Bible automatically escalate into an attack on the individual who holds it to be his God?

I think that realization helps me understand religious people more completely. IF someone attacks a philosophy which another holds to be his God it would be impossible NOT to take it as a personal attack.

I never really thought of it that way. Can you confirm or deny Ray?

[As for me, I certainly don't even tell the kids about my religious beliefs. But am just as adamant that no religious beliefs be thrust upon or even acknowledged (to use the language of the Constitution) by any leg of my public school.]


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, it isn't about Christianity. It's about one asshole who calls himself a "Christian" and thinks it's his job to use his position of power in the government to force the rest of us to follow his rules according to his religious beliefs.

It's not about Muslims or Wiccans or Jews, either. If it were any other religious fanatic with similarly fanatical views, I'd be up in arms about it, too.

But in this country and with this administration, it's so-called "Christians." And this is not a Christian nation. But the repeated attempts to turn it into one are among the many forces that are making me seriously considering leaving and eventually seeking citizenship elsewhere.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:quote:The populous on this board is so open minded when it comes to whichcraft and Wicca but when someone mentions Christianity they are right winged hate full spawns of Satan. I think the populous is pretty tolerant of most things Ray, but you keep imposing your beliefs with customary missionary zeal.

In my own personal opinion, I do believe that christianity has lost the plot, and has fallen into the hands of Satan. The greed tell's ya that. Think JC would kick the shit out of all these "so called" christians, if he walked again today.

I don't know anything about wicca, but I do know that if God created the universe, the planets and everything. Then he/she created nature, and he/she works through nature. Darwin understood nature, but the Christians could never accept evolution. They always thought they were some kinda "supreme" animal, created in God's image. So when faced with that reality, they invented all this creationism rubbish by twisting the bible.

For some reason, christians have always suppressed nature, the natural cycle, mother earth and all that. That's why I find their teachings so hollow and artificial. I think they really miss the point completely. The answer ain't in no books, that's for sure.

Back on topic. I think appointing a guy like Dr. W. David Hager to such an important position, is about as appropriate as appointing David Copperfield (the popular magician.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:1 post at a time....

quote: With this man in charge of the reproductive health division of the FDA he has the ability to force his religious beliefs on an entire nation, and that chills me to the bone.
I would like to see one person force their beliefes on the "ENTIRE" US. The US is so diversified that no one ideal can be accepted by everyone. Not even the ideal on what freedome is.

Ardvark, other than my terrible grammer hehe...
Once I get to my book, or maybe you can even read it "Jesus Freaks", it tells of many martyrs slain for their beliefs. Some not all mind you were slain because they were not Muslim.

How is it relevent? When quoted out of context like that it seems a rather unrelevent statement. I was refering to how some religions have the tendoncy to force their religion.

This country or actually the colonies that would later make up this country and then some, left England not only from tyrany and oppression but also from religios persicution.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... what book, chapter and verse was that and please quote the text before and after it that way we may know the context please. Personally I have never heard that. My friends fate is for him to decide, not me.

The birthcontrole pill thing I wasnt refering to, and that I did not know thanks for that bit of info. However last I knew you could buy some pretty siera hotel pain killers at local stores.

I was saying our debate was pointless, true if your point is to debate, then it has accomplished his goal but if you point was to remove this man from office then it is pretty much pointless.

NYC, I am sorry for missing your questions, I am not well known for detailed reading.

The Bible is not my God, so no but an attack on my God is , to me, an attack on me. Since I hold what is written in the Bible as God's Word then I consider an attack on it, an attack on my God and thus an attack on me. I will defend to the bitter end if needs be.

Yes the way I see it, an attack on my beliefs is an attack on me.

Mike, the national religion is Christianity, meaning the majority of the population consider themselves Christion. So... look at it from a political point of view, do you please the masses or do you please the minority? If the masses will get you re-elected then you please them, that is if you want to be re-elected.

So Stone, your saying that Darwin was right and that we are all fish? That the Bible's "Let us make man in our likeness..." is total rubbish?

Evolution is full of holes, none of it can be proven by actual science. They are theories, Creation is not a theory it is what God said and did.

7 days of Creation, 7 days in the week. So your saying that 5 1/2 thousand years ago man knew that there were 7 days to a week without some sort of either A. precise math equations that I still can not fully comprehend or even begin to understand or B. Devine inspiration?

I do not think that the Bible is twisted, however I will admit that there have been some persons in the past and more than likly in the present and deffinatly in the future that have twisted the Bible to their will and corrupted the unknowing.

As far as David Copperfield goes... you would be supriesed what someone can do when they are put to the task. Dont scoff the man on something that he has never attepted. (Yes I know you were being sarcastic and joking but you know me, I have to put my own tid bit in there.)


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:quote:Creation is not a theory it is what God said and did.Ray, it’s a story or a parable if you like. It has significance, but it can't be proved because it didn't happen. The world was never made in seven days.

Think about it Ray. You think something like the Grand Canyon happened over night. It just doesn't work like that. It took millions of years.

Darwin is right, a walk in the woods will tell you that. And, evolution has been proved. Darwin never said you were a fish, more of a monkey (wee joke there), more likely we started out as humble bacteria And, if you look at the genetics or DNA maps then there is not a lot of difference between the species anyhow.

The important point is when did the conscious begin. When and where did humankind get souls? Where did that spark, that separates humankind from animals, come from? That’s the question no one can answer. And, yeah I'd have to agree that divine inspiration is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Miss the point on the maths, but humankind has had precise maths down pat since forever. Look at the pyramids, and other ancient feats of architecture that are over 6000 year old. Oops, the world is only 5500 year old. How can the be


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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AardvarkOnAcid
member
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Member Since: 5th Jul 2002
Total posts: 92
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
1 post at a time....

quote: With this man in charge of the reproductive health division of the FDA he has the ability to force his religious beliefs on an entire nation, and that chills me to the bone.
I would like to see one person force their beliefes on the "ENTIRE" US. The US is so diversified that no one ideal can be accepted by everyone. Not even the ideal on what freedome is.

Ardvark, other than my terrible grammer hehe...
Once I get to my book, or maybe you can even read it "Jesus Freaks", it tells of many martyrs slain for their beliefs. Some not all mind you were slain because they were not Muslim.

Examples please. Want the converse? The spanish inquisition. The phrase conversion by the sword was pretty much defined there.

I have a fairly decent grasp of middle eastern history. Give me examples, dates, people. Not to nitpick, but you made a sweeping statement. Support it.

How is it relevent? When quoted out of context like that it seems a rather unrelevent statement. I was refering to how some religions have the tendoncy to force their religion.

Does that make it ok to do so in a country where there is a basic separation between church and state?


This country or actually the colonies that would later make up this country and then some, left England not only from tyrany and oppression but also from religios persicution.

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... what book, chapter and verse was that and please quote the text before and after it that way we may know the context please. Personally I have never heard that. My friends fate is for him to decide, not me.


King James Translation, Exodus 22:18. Alternately translated as "Thou shalt not suffer a sorcer to live" in a few other translations. I'm sure you have a bible around that you can use to get the surrounding text.


The birthcontrole pill thing I wasnt refering to, and that I did not know thanks for that bit of info. However last I knew you could buy some pretty siera hotel pain killers at local stores.

I was saying our debate was pointless, true if your point is to debate, then it has accomplished his goal but if you point was to remove this man from office then it is pretty much pointless.

NYC, I am sorry for missing your questions, I am not well known for detailed reading.

The Bible is not my God, so no but an attack on my God is , to me, an attack on me. Since I hold what is written in the Bible as God's Word then I consider an attack on it, an attack on my God and thus an attack on me. I will defend to the bitter end if needs be.

Yes the way I see it, an attack on my beliefs is an attack on me.

Mike, the national religion is Christianity, meaning the majority of the population consider themselves Christion. So... look at it from a political point of view, do you please the masses or do you please the minority? If the masses will get you re-elected then you please them, that is if you want to be re-elected.

A basic point in the american system of government is the protection of the minority from the tyrany of the majority. Why do you think the US isn't a direct democracy? Why not just have one legislative branch, etc. Its been a constant theme since the 1770's.


So Stone, your saying that Darwin was right and that we are all fish? That the Bible's "Let us make man in our likeness..." is total rubbish?

Evolution is full of holes, none of it can be proven by actual science. They are theories, Creation is not a theory it is what God said and did.

Darwin never said that. Reference, please.

Evolution is not full of holes and if you think it cant be "proven by actual science", you have no clue of what science is about.

I know a fair amount of evolutionary theory, and I'd be more than happy to refute any "holes" you care to bring up.

You don't want me to get started on Creation.


7 days of Creation, 7 days in the week. So your saying that 5 1/2 thousand years ago man knew that there were 7 days to a week without some sort of either A. precise math equations that I still can not fully comprehend or even begin to understand or B. Devine inspiration?


How about one way to a segment time, with its only real significance being that we use it today. Whats magical about having 7 days a week? Are you saying that because the Europeans conquered people using different calendars, the idea of 7 days in a week is divine? Please.


I do not think that the Bible is twisted, however I will admit that there have been some persons in the past and more than likly in the present and deffinatly in the future that have twisted the Bible to their will and corrupted the unknowing.


Exodus - God kills all the first born childern. Why? What was their sin? Because the happened to be unlucky enough to be born to the enemy?

Ex. 21:15 - And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Ex. 21:17 - And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Mark 7:9 - 7:12 to see what Jesus thought of the above two.

Ex 22:20 - "He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." What were you saying about "be muslim or die" again?

Luke 19:27 - But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Zecharaih 14:2 - For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

First Corinthians
14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

I can quote more, chapter and verse, all day if you want.

The writers of the Bible were twisted fucks.



As far as David Copperfield goes... you would be supriesed what someone can do when they are put to the task. Dont scoff the man on something that he has never attepted. (Yes I know you were being sarcastic and joking but you know me, I have to put my own tid bit in there.)


Is that all life comes down to? To be lying face down with an overenthusiastic guy in pink pin-striped pants sitting on top of you and grunting? -- Random MusingsSex, Drugs and Psytrance.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Actually Stone, carbon dating is inacurate and has been proven so. It is still used because like standerd mesurments it is something that will never be let go of. I never said the world was 5500 years old, I was using that as a base number that was actuall wrong, now that I come to think of it. It is estimated that there were 2000 years between creation and the flood, 2000 from the flood to Christs birth and 2000 years from the birth of Christ to present day well 2002 hehe. I dont know what I was thinking I do apologyse for my rash figuring of years.

Darwin is wrong, he even recanted all that he said, quit trying to get a rise out of me.

Ardvark, what does the spanish inquisition have to do with the US, my history is a bit ruff but was the Americas even found when that was happening?

There is seperation from church and state to pervent ANY religion from taking over the government like what happend in England.

Hmm Old Testiment law, I am not Jewish therefore I do not live by those laws, however when I do get married I will just have to beat my wife with a stick the width of my thumb... that is if I lived by Old Testiment Laws.

By the way those laws were thrown out and replaced with two new ones. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, body and streangth, and love thy neigbor as yourself."

You cant have 1 legislative branch, you have 2 for the simple purpose of checks and balences. However from a political standpoint I would kiss the ass of the majority rather than squabble with the minority.

Hole #1 Primordial ooze... oxygen is the giver of life, it is also the destryer of existance. Oxidation in metals and when the human body rots it is due to... oxygen how can something as frail as our "beginging" ever withstand the very substance that gives us life?

Hole #2 Big Bang... take everything you need to build a house, set it on a nuke and blow it up, how many times will you have to set the nuke off before you get it to blow up into a house? Your trying to tell me that and explosion formed the universe?

Actually the I do believe Aztecs have the most acurate calender, before modern science. So the evil Europians came to the South American continent area and changed their calender?

You quoted 1st Corinthians out of context, the Corenthian Church they had a problem (not to be sexist) with women babbiling through the service gossip... yadda yadda yadda, it however does not say that the practice of keeping women quiet was for the rest of the Churches.

The 10th plague, when God says DO SOMETHING and you dont, there are reprecutions get over it. If Pharo (sp) would have listend the first time, none of it would happen.

For Luke, out of context...

Exidous 22:20... yep, thats the way it was, if you worshiped anything other than God, you died. I do recall though not the place in the Bible... the Isrialites went out to war, they were told to take nothing back with them, one man did, he held those items more important than God, becuase he disobeyd him, and his whole family, their livestock and servents were swollowed by the earth!! See that law was not to call for just the deaths of the enimy but for everyone.

Why dont you try quoting in context, I am sure anyone can pick through Exidus, Laviticus, Numbers and Dueteronimy and find something they dont like. Or something that they think is too harsh. In the end it is still choose God or die, except when the time comes it wont just be your body dieing it will be your soul, wishing it were dead for all eternity.

John 1:1 In the begining was the Word, the Word was God, the Word was with God. That quote right there gives you God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

John 3:16 For he loved the world so much that he gave his only begotton Son, and who so ever believith in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life... 3:17 For He did not come into the Earth to condem it, but to save it.

Go back to your sex, drugs and psytrance, but dont you dare come up to me at the Gates and say why didnt I warn you, dont any of you say that. If you have read the above 2 scripts and dont listen to them, you will go to hell for all eternity.

Its up to you people.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Actually Stone, carbon dating is inacurate and has been proven so. go on ray, prove this to me! it is inaccurate under *some* circumstances but we know what these circumstances are and can tell if we can trust radio dating to the point of getting a plus minus for every dating that is made. in any case, its a sh*tload better than your 'estimation' of 'someone said there was about 2000 years here, 2000 years there so that adds up to about this for the age of the entire universe'. a laughable deduction.

quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Darwin is wrong, he even recanted all that he said, quit trying to get a rise out of me.sorry if this sounds rude ray but that is a complete crock of sh*t. darwin is not wrong - i'm not saying he's right but his theory of evolution stands up to serious scrutiny. i'm getting fed up with you making blanket statements as if you have irrefutable evidence for your claims. most of the time you don't and, in this case, you never could have.

check out this text on the matter:

`Shortly after his death, Lady Hope addressed a gathering of young men and women at the educational establishment founded by the evangelist Dwight Lyman Moody at Northfield, Massachusetts. She had, she maintained, visited Darwin on his deathbed. He had been reading the Epistle to the Hebrews, had asked for the local Sunday school to sing in a summerhouse on the grounds, and had confessed: "How I wish I had not expressed my theory of evolution as I have done." He went on, she said, to say that he would like her to gather a congregation since he "would like to speak to them of Christ Jesus and His salvation, being in a state where he was eagerly savouring the heavenly anticipation of bliss." `With Moody's encouragement, Lady Hope's story was printed in the Boston Watchman Examiner. The story spread, and the claims were republished as late as October 1955 in the Reformation Review and in the Monthly Record of the Free Church of Scotland in February 1957. These attempts to fudge Darwin's story had already been exposed for what they were, first by his daughter Henrietta after they had been revived in 1922. "I was present at his deathbed," she wrote in the Christian for February 23, 1922. "Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. . . . The whole story has no foundation whatever."' (Ellipsis is in the book)

Clark's source for Lady Hope's supposed quotations of Darwin is given as "Down, the Home of the Darwins: The Story of a House and the People Who Lived There" by Sir Hedley Atkins KBE, published by Phillimore for the Royal College of Surgeons of England, 1974.

Henrietta's rebuttal is referenced more fully as: Mrs R B Litchfield, "Charles Darwin's Death-Bed: Story of Conversion Denied," The Christian, February 23, 1922, p. 12.'

not enough for you? try this

anyway, just because there is a rumour that the man who came up with the theory recanted it on his deathbed has *absoulutely nothing* to do with the theory's relevancy. if einstein had recanted his general theory of relativity on his deathbed would you then claim that nuclear weapons shouldn't actually work?!

secondly, you quote this bloke john. how about this quote 'do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law'. why isn't that just as relevent to everyone's everyday existence?

take note of that quote because if you don't listen to it, don't you dare come up to me the day before you die complaining about how you relinquished your free will to religion and never really decided on your own how to live your life.

i apologise to everyone for the sharpness of this post but i am ill right now and hence and have very little patience. as you can tell, i am getting very annoyed by ray's repeated refusal to directly argue his points with anything other than sweeping statements that he cannot back up for another 3 months until he gets his books (that it seems must directly quote the history of the universe direct from the mouth of god).



"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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AardvarkOnAcid
member
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Member Since: 5th Jul 2002
Total posts: 92
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Actually Stone, carbon dating is inacurate and has been proven so. It is still used because like standerd mesurments it is something that will never be let go of. I never said the world was 5500 years old, I was using that as a base number that was actuall wrong, now that I come to think of it. It is estimated that there were 2000 years between creation and the flood, 2000 from the flood to Christs birth and 2000 years from the birth of Christ to present day well 2002 hehe. I dont know what I was thinking I do apologyse for my rash figuring of years.

No. Carbon dating is accurate to within a certain range. The farther back you go the more iffy it gets, but its hardly completely inaccurate in all cases. Its also far from the only way of doing dating of finds.


Darwin is wrong, he even recanted all that he said, quit trying to get a rise out of me.


Darwin was one person who came up with an idea. The idea did not end or stop changing and improving with him. Judging evolution by what darwin wrote over a hundred years ago, knowing a tiny fraction of what we know is silly. He also hardly recanted, but rather changed his theory. The reasons were more because he lacked the ability to explain how characteristics were passed (which we now know is due to DNA/Genes/etc), than because he found god.

You still haven't reference where Darwin said we were fish. Don't bitch about me not giving full context to biblical quotes if you put ridiculous words into people's mouths.

Have you actually read *any* Darwin?


Ardvark, what does the spanish inquisition have to do with the US, my history is a bit ruff but was the Americas even found when that was happening?

I don't know. What does "be muslim or die" have to do with anything?

There is seperation from church and state to pervent ANY religion from taking over the government like what happend in England.


Except that religeon didn't take over the government in England. The King decided that catholicism was inconvenient and went his own way.


Hmm Old Testiment law, I am not Jewish therefore I do not live by those laws, however when I do get married I will just have to beat my wife with a stick the width of my thumb... that is if I lived by Old Testiment Laws.


But you're willing to take Genesis at face value. You said it is the word of god. Exactly which parts of the old testemant do you consider the word of god. What about the rest? Was God kidding? Did he change his mind? Who decides what applies?

A number of times in the new testemant, Jesus damns people for not following the old testemant. See the Mark reference.


By the way those laws were thrown out and replaced with two new ones. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, body and streangth, and love thy neigbor as yourself."

You cant have 1 legislative branch, you have 2 for the simple purpose of checks and balences. However from a political standpoint I would kiss the ass of the majority rather than squabble with the minority.

Hole #1 Primordial ooze... oxygen is the giver of life, it is also the destryer of existance. Oxidation in metals and when the human body rots it is due to... oxygen how can something as frail as our "beginging" ever withstand the very substance that gives us life?


Bodies rot because of microbes. Anaerobic microbes for the most part. Having exactly nothing to do with oxygen.

Oxygen does not give us life. Oxygen is used in our metabolic pathways -- big difference. All evidence points to the primordial ooze being in a nitrogen rich atmosphere with most of the oxygen bound. So in other words there wasn't enough free oxygen to oxidize a significant of molecules in the primordial ooze. To the best of our knowledge.


Hole #2 Big Bang... take everything you need to build a house, set it on a nuke and blow it up, how many times will you have to set the nuke off before you get it to blow up into a house? Your trying to tell me that and explosion formed the universe?

The parts of a house aren't self replicating. DNA is. This is a fact. We can see it work. TTake a bunch of proteins, put em in a jar and leave em alone with a bunch of fatty acids. Add lightning, energy and UV rays. Leave alone for billions of years. See if they form a membrane around themselves. They do. A couple (out of countless tries) got themselves self replicating. This is all conjecture, but at least we can test it in a lab and see if it works. Thats what we're talking about. That has nothing to do with the big bang, which is one conjecture on how the universe looked at the "beginning". There is a world of difference in the acceptance of evolution by natural selection and the big bang.

Blowing something up is massively different from letting compounds swim around for a couple billion years in a high energy system with lots of organic molecules around.

So basically, you know nothing about biology, physics or chemistry, but feel free to authoritatively declare that certain things are incorrect.


Actually the I do believe Aztecs have the most acurate calender, before modern science. So the evil Europians came to the South American continent area and changed their calender?


Hardly.

I'm just curious why you think that having 7 days in a week is a proof of god.



You quoted 1st Corinthians out of context, the Corenthian Church they had a problem (not to be sexist) with women babbiling through the service gossip... yadda yadda yadda, it however does not say that the practice of keeping women quiet was for the rest of the Churches.


Where did you get this from? Where does it say this in the Bible?


The 10th plague, when God says DO SOMETHING and you dont, there are reprecutions get over it. If Pharo (sp) would have listend the first time, none of it would happen.

What were the sins of the infants who died? Did *they* disobey god?

For Luke, out of context...


Oh really? I have an etext bible in front of me. What about the context makes this sentence totally different. I'm not about to start quoting pages and pages. Note that this is the New Testemant and this is supposed to be Jesus speaking. Or wait, he later said to love everyone, and this is all irrelevant, right?


Exidous 22:20... yep, thats the way it was, if you worshiped anything other than God, you died. I do recall though not the place in the Bible... the Isrialites went out to war, they were told to take nothing back with them, one man did, he held those items more important than God, becuase he disobeyd him, and his whole family, their livestock and servents were swollowed by the earth!! See that law was not to call for just the deaths of the enimy but for everyone.


Yes, according to the story.

How about Lot sending his two virgin daughters to be raped by a mob to save two angels? Genesis 19:8

Or God sending two bears to rip to shreads 42 childern who made fun of Elisha? 2 Kings 2:23-24

Or the countless rape, enslavement, and such which goes on in his name?

Yeah, all this is done to unbeliever's so its ok?


Why dont you try quoting in context, I am sure anyone can pick through Exidus, Laviticus, Numbers and Dueteronimy and find something they dont like. Or something that they think is too harsh. In the end it is still choose God or die, except when the time comes it wont just be your body dieing it will be your soul, wishing it were dead for all eternity.


Whereas you're happy to find a few points which make you feel good and feel free to disregard anything that doesn't.

What do you consider context?

Choose God or die? Does the phrase "be muslim or die" seem in the slightest way amusing now?



John 1:1 In the begining was the Word, the Word was God, the Word was with God. That quote right there gives you God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.



Ummmm.... no. The quote you give says nothing about the Holy spirit or anything resembling the trinity.



John 3:16 For he loved the world so much that he gave his only begotton Son, and who so ever believith in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life... 3:17 For He did not come into the Earth to condem it, but to save it.



Congratulations. You're able to find a few happy points. Lets forget everything else.... until we need to find a reason to outlaw homosexuality.



Go back to your sex, drugs and psytrance, but dont you dare come up to me at the Gates and say why didnt I warn you, dont any of you say that. If you have read the above 2 scripts and dont listen to them, you will go to hell for all eternity.

Its up to you people.So. To wrap up - If we don't believe in what you believe, and hold the same morality as you do, we should die and go promptly to hell.


Is that all life comes down to? To be lying face down with an overenthusiastic guy in pink pin-striped pants sitting on top of you and grunting? -- Random MusingsSex, Drugs and Psytrance.

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