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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I just got this E-mail this morning.
---------------------------------
FDA Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee:
Bush Selection Favors Prayer for PMS, and opposes the Use of Contraception by Unmarried Women.


President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist, and sources told Time magazine (see article below from Time, "Jesus and theFDA") that in his private practice he will not prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. He is also the author of a book, As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now which amongst other things suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying.

The Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee is responsible for offering expert scientific and medical advice to the FDA on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology, and related specialties. The committee's responsibilities include all contraceptive drugs and drugs used in performing medical abortion as well as drugs used for infertility
treatments, hormone replacement therapy and labor and delivery.
--------------------------------------------------------

Hoboy...this is not looking very good at all.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_Stix_


_Stix_

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Total posts: 2419
Posted:Oh Man!!

From my understanding books aren't very good contraceptions..

glad I live in the UK..

Any one for a baby boom? But then again the US doesn't really have THAT much a problem with young mums as we do here do they? My impression is that there isn't really as much peer pressure to loose your virginity quickly as there is in the UK sadly..
Is that the case? But I still believe in having the right to choose contraception or not.. this dude is just saying no to all unmarried women.. ?? needs his head read!


I honour you as an aspect of myself..

You are never to old to storm a bouncey castle..

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Stix:

Any one for a baby boom? But then again the US doesn't really have THAT much a problem with young mums as we do here do they? My impression is that there isn't really as much peer pressure to loose your virginity quickly as there is in the UK sadly..
Is that the case? But I still believe in having the right to choose contraception or not.. this dude is just saying no to all unmarried women.. ?? needs his head read!We have been experiencing a decline in the teenage birthrate, which is good. The data that I have seen indicate that the average age at first intercourse in Europe is a year or two younger than it is here (13 or 14 vs. 15 or 16).

That said, there is a lot of peer pressure at work here and the problem is far from solved. And I don't know what a "solution" is. But I can tell you one thing: if the FDA approves faith healing as a therapeutic modality, screw research. I'll set up shop in any other country, research or not. I won't live in a theocracy.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Celeste


member
Location: Birmingham, Ala USA

Total posts: 48
Posted:Just when it seemed that we were making progress...this is very very sad news.

What does Dr. Hager really know about PMS anyway? (I'm not saying that men can't make good OBGYNs, but that there is a lack of first hand knowledge.) I'm pretty sure if he came down with a case of cramps so bad that he couldn't get out of bed one day that he wouldn't turn to his precious book for help.

And does this mean that sex education will once again only be based on abstinance? Didn't anyone realize that it didn't work the last time?


Life is serious, but art is fun!

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Grrrr, no commenting on the choice of the man for such a high profile position. Instead...

Imagine having such a person as your doctor. When you are a little older it is really easy to go, "I don't agree with you", and walk out the door. However if he was your family doctor and you were a lot younger, you would be so worried. There would be so many issues of confidentiality. And the advice....

I am not saying that what he is suggesting isn't a solution for some women. I am sure some women would find both solace and healing in the bibl because of their faith. However prescribing that solution to a young woman, unsure of herself in the world. Well it is like telling someone with constant headaches to go away and pray for relief. God works in mysterious ways, and I am sure that curing cramps isn't high up on his list of priorities. So when the PMS doesn't go away, it is a "blame God" situation. "Oh look, the lord didn't do anything, you were born to suffer."

I would not have so much of a problem with this if people could choose their doctor in all circumstances. They could make a choice about which doctor fitted in with their beliefs. However the fact of the matter is that a lot of young people are stuck with their family doctor.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:As a doc he can run his practice as he wants inside certain guide lines. Now I am guessing that his practice is successfull, so I dont see what the big deal is. Just becuase he recomends things that are different, doesnt mean that he should be looked at with such disgust! When you have acupuncture and the "here eat this root" type medicine, why is it so hard for people to believe that maybe there is something to the Bible?

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

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Total posts: 5635
Posted:eek!

*clings to her pms medication for dear life...*

`

thank God almighty for doctors who DO prescribe pms meds and do Proper check ups and actually HELP the patients they have. If i didnt have a doc who was thorough, no doubt i would not be on this earth anymore!


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:Ray,

Only when turning to your bible for healing is proven to work can doctors actually be fullfilling their hippocratic oath by prescribing it.

I want to know what the good Dr Hager would recommend to any patients who are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu etc.... Or indeed if he has any patients who don't follow the bible.

edit.... spelling

[ 08 November 2002, 03:33: Message edited by: TheBovrilMonkey ]


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:That's really shocking! Heads of committees should be impartial, but this is a completely unacceptable mixing of religion and politics. At his practice (no doubt in middle America) I doubt he has any non-Christian or unmarried women patients.

I went to a Christian Science school. I saw people get very ill, suffer and die needlessly because they believed the bible was more powerful than medicine and illness was a sign of weak faith. It disgusted me. Acupuncture and herbal medicine has been proven to work, I've seen it work, and I've seen the bible kill people.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Yes the Bible killed! It picked up a knife and stabbed that woman last night! Though I do get a euphoric high from the tattoo needle I just dont see how sticking a needle in my arse is going to cure any illness. Can it deaden a nerve and lessen pain? Well it will if it ruins the nerve.

I know of people who have withstood more than illness for their faith, martyrs still happen even today.

Ohh and Dom I love how you steriotype everybody in middle America, real openminded!!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Wait maybe your saying that only aithiests can be in office. I know that the only thing worse than Satan is a politician but come on Dom use a little of that "balance" you claim to love!

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

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Posted:Ray, settle pet! Dom is talking about Christian Scientists! A fanatical almost Cult like religion, that bans the use of any medicine practiced on their followers. If a christian scientists is in a car crash and needs a blood transfusion to be able to live, they will refuse it, on the grounds that it is not from God!

Sometimes God works THROUGH medicine, and through doctors. Sometimes people put a fanatical faith in the bible and refuse to listen to common sense, and they die......

Tis a reality my sweet, A misguided and aweful reality. Chill ok?


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:No, you're over reacting to me like you normally dio. I said people should be impartial, ie not overly dictate their personal and religion beliefs into their profession. Doesn't matter what religion, sexuality, race, etc they are. A doctor's role is to heal people, not preach and dictate that people should follow a religious code. If you have a medical condition and you go to a medical doctor he should treat you with medicine, not hocus pocus.

People withstand a lot with faith, but what I was saying is that many people (and people I've known) have died waiting for thier faith to heal them.

Oh, and statistically middle America is more right wing and religious than other parts, so it wasn't stereotyping everyone in middle America, it was an educated guess

No, we're not turning this into a slanging match again, it ends here.


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Hey Rozi, don't blame America, we didn't vote for Bush after all.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Okay, as long as you don't blame Australia for John Howard...

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Sorry Dom, I have yet react like I have in the past, I used sarcasim there not anger. The man has HIS practice, therefore it is HIS right to run HIS practice how HE wants. Who are you to say anything?

Dom, by middle America would that include Dallas, Albuquerque, Huston, San Antonio. Dom you steriotyped. Now you may have the wholesome shows of the 60's on the brain when you think middle America but the Bible belt deminishes quicker and quicker each year, tis a real shame.

Borval, what happend to the miricles of healing in the Bible? You dont have to agree believe in them, its up to you.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

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Posted:Listen, I don't really have anything against what this guy does in his own practice, because as you have said, there are a lot of cures out there that require faith of different types. Some Asian traditional methods really rely on the persons own belief in the efficacy of the cure.

However the position of a doctor involves some sort of implicit authority. We trust doctors. If this person was your family doctor, would you be willing to walk away if his advice didn't work for you? I would argue that many would not, some may even feel that it was a failing of their own faith that the pain did not go away.

At the same time, I don't believe he would be suitably impartial in his position with the Bush government. You could argue that every person has their own prejudices, and so it is inevitable that whomsoever held this position would be biased in some way. However I feel that in this instance, the authority given to this man could be detrimental to the choices Americans have in seeking out medical treatment. Whilst it in his practice he may have a certain amount of latitude, he is being given a position where he can dictate the direction of medical treatment in America. And he may choose to steer medical practice towards his own beliefs rather than allowing treatment to continue as a broad stream with many options.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
As a doc he can run his practice as he wants inside certain guide lines. Now I am guessing that his practice is successfull, so I dont see what the big deal is. Just becuase he recomends things that are different, doesnt mean that he should be looked at with such disgust! When you have acupuncture and the "here eat this root" type medicine, why is it so hard for people to believe that maybe there is something to the Bible?Ray, there's an unwritten rule in medicine. You NEVER EVER EVER push your religious beliefs on your patients. It's just not done.

Also, M.D.'s practicing as mainstream physicians should not be using faith healing. Or herbs. I won't use either. I will refer my patients to herbalists if I see fit, or to faith healers if I see fit, for that matter.

This doctor's practice was not terribly successful, in fact. He's scantily credentialed and is strongly opposed by the AMA.

And the fact that this sort of thing is getting into our government is yet another reason why I want to leave the country.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Jade Lynx


member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...

Total posts: 239
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
[QB]The man has HIS practice, therefore it is HIS right to run HIS practice how HE wants. Who are you to say anything?
[QB]But Raymond, honey, the issue to hand is not what he does in his private practise, but what he'll be doing as part of the Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee.

"The Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee is responsible for offering expert scientific and medical advice to the FDA on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology, and related specialties. The committee's responsibilities include all contraceptive drugs and drugs used in performing medical abortion as well as drugs used for infertility treatments, hormone replacement therapy and labor and delivery."

He can be as Christian as he wants, he's welcome to pray three hours a day for all of me, what is NOT acceptable is using a government position to forward the agenda of a specific religion. And, yes, i'm making an assumption here (and, yes, i know how to spell assume, thanks), but historically, strongly devout Christians in influential government positions have tended to try to use their infleunce to further the agenda's of their religion. I profoundly hope that this will not be the case with Dr. Hager, but past experience makes me feel trepidation about this appointment.
As long as i don't break laws, i have the right to have sex with whomever i choose, and my marital state has no legal bearing on such actions.
Keeping people from getting contraceptives does NOT keep them from having sex, it just keeps them from having the option of protection.
While the idea of celibacy out of marriage is a noble one in many people's eyes, it is unrealistic at best, and for many people is an ethical irrelevancy.

And, for the record, one of my closest friends was raised Christian Scientist, gets devastating cramps, and finds that ibuprofen does a lot more than sincere prayers ever did for her. If some people can receive relief by Christian prayer, i am delighted for them, but it does leave those
who aren't Christians out in the cold...


We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Total posts: 2629
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
Borval, what happend to the miricles of healing in the Bible? You dont have to agree believe in them, its up to you.The problem is that Dr Hager has a duty to his patients as a Doctor, which means he should do everything in his power to help them.
As far as we know, he's not an emmisary from God and therefore has no power to heal people with miracles.
Even if I believed in divine intervention to cure people, surely it has such a low success rate, that a doctor should be using something else to treat his patients? Otherwise I'd imagine it'd be all over the papers, and pretty much every doctor would be telling their patients to pray for healing - it'd be much cheaper than using any modern medicine.

I wonder if Dr Hager also prescribes reading the bible and praying to his patients who need a kidney transplant - surely God could do that for them if he'll relieve cramps for people who pray enough. He could probably remove a tumour too, for that matter.

This is something I read in a book a while ago (paraphrasing it because I can't remember it well enough to quote )
quote:A river burst it's banks near Old Mrs Johnson's house and as she watched the water run across the floor around her feet, she thought 'never mind, God will save me', so she waited.
A while later, a man waded past the house and noticed Mrs Johnson up to her waist in water and asked if she needed any help getting to safety. She replied 'No, God will save me, you keep walking' and waited a bit longer.
Even later still, a swimmer swam past and noticed Mrs Johnson sitting on the roof of her house and asked if she needed any help. She replied again 'God will save me, there's no need to trouble yourself' and carried on waiting.
Later still and a man in a boat rowed past, noticing Mrs Johnson clinging onto the chimney stack and asked if she needed any help.
Sticking to her faith, Mrs Johnson once again replied that she didn't need any help as God would save her and continued to wait.

A few minutes later, there was no-where else for Mrs Johnson to go, and she was swept away by the flood and drowned.
Upon her arrival at the pearly gates, she asked St Peter why God had not saved her.
He replied 'God sent someone to carry you to safety, someone to swim you to safety and someone to row you to safety, but you didn't let them help'.What's to say that God hasn't had a bit of divine intervention to ensure that we have medicine at the standards that we do now?


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Your right, who is there to say that God hasnt placed the knowlege in man to create medicine and that this guy is undermining it all, but Faith caused a deseased woman to be healed all because she touched Christs clothing. Faith allowed Peter to walk on water. Faith can do amany things, if your willing to let it.

Here is a story for you Borvile, I forget the name so I will just call the man Ethan.

Ethan was a God fearing man a new Christian during the tyrany of the Inquistion. Ethan soon found himself put on trial for hericy by the inquisition. Ethan refused to renounce God and Jesus Christ, refused to renounce what we believed to be true. He was turned over to the local magistrate to be burned. The night before his exicution his friends and family came and vistied him in his cell. The begged an pleaded for him to renounce all that he held true, but he refused. Instead he offerd them a sign, if he could raise his hands over his head and touch his fingers together, it would mean that what he believed was the truth.

He was tied and shackled and the fire lit, Ethan never screamed in pain nor did he curse the men who set him on fire. He simply waited, and when the time came and his bonds snapped from the fire, he raised his hands and touched his fingers togeather. He died soon after.

Later that very night his friends and family all were saved and reborn as Christians.

As soon as I get all my books back I would love to write all the stories I have of Martyrs.

Believe me when I say, there is a God, though we may not understand him all the time, He does love us.

You might say, Where was God when such and such happend? Man He was in the same place as He was when His Son was nailed to a cross and crucified.

Weather or not you hate Him or love him, He is still there. Weather or not you believe or not, He is still there. Weather or not you practice medicine in his name, He is still there.

This Dr. has every right to tell his paitence anything he wants. If he is not breaking the law, then he is fine. Unwritten rules are unwritten for a reason, because they dont matter. If they were truly important, there would be a law about them.

If you look down on this guy because of his religion or how he chooses to preach it to the people then I say you are closed minded and ignorant of what the world is truly about.

This world is about one thing, and its all who you know!

I am by far not the best person in the world, heck I have a friend that considers himself a warlock, that has better morals than I. However I do know the truth, my personal matters are for me and my creator. I ask that you refrain from pointing them out.

[ 08 November 2002, 03:22: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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toneman


member


Total posts: 195
Posted:I'd just like to point out since I'm from Texas, and have lived here for 20+ years, that Yes Dallas, Houston and San Antonio are full of right wing religious fanatics. Austin, no, but everywhere else, YES!! How many other states allow peeps to drive with their hunting rifles in the back window of their pickup?

I can't remember who it was on this board, but someone had a tagline something like...
"never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

<<<<<screw birth control, let's just pray those teens won't get pregnant>>>>


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Gosilyn


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Location: Houston area

Total posts: 4
Posted:Just a quick note from a newie to this site. I also happen to be a christian and a single mother of two, my first born when I was 20, out of wed lock and to an atheist father. (We met at church, oddly enough.) I can not and will not speak for any one else. I have strived to teach my children that abstinance is a good thing and that sex is a natural step in the sceme of things. It floored me when I got a note from my daughter's school informing me that they would be implementing a 'special' sex education program. When I requested more information as to what this 'special' curricullum was I was told that I could come to the school and watch a video that would be shown to the children. Intially I had flashbacks to being herded into the gymnasium and being forced to watch the health film that dispelled all the myths about menstruation. Well let me tell you that was not what was happening here at all. I have always been honest with my kids about their bodies and the nature of things. (All the gory details left out until they actually ask for them.) However, it was not the video that actually disturbed me (still the health film, just updated.) It was the puritanical way the teachers were handling it. They couldn't even answer the kids questions with any kind of consistancy. I understand that most people don't want to talk to their kids about sex, but at what point did we become so lazy as parents that the government had to step in and decree that the public school system must now do this for you? Does it really make you wonder why so many kids wind up as parents? Confused and scared. It's just the same old social taboos and irresponsible mentoring in a new dress. I for one, am proud of my kids and own my past indiscretions. I have neither a reason lie or hide things from my children. And I'll be damned if I'll let any politician (MD or not) screw my kids up any better than I can. So on that lovely little note, greetings from a fellow traveller and wishes of better things to come.

As Always, Gosilyn

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:The pill is what, 99% effective? That leaves 1% so do you want your teenage daughter to be the 1%?

The only contraceptive that works 100% is abstinance, maybe if you dont want kids getting pregnant, instead of teaching them how to use a condom you should teach them to keep their pants up and the skirts down.

Gosilyn is very right in what she said.

Thomas Jefferson once said, "The philosiphy in the classroom in one generation, will be the philosiphy of the government in the next."

Look at the government now, do you think it will get better or worse? Personally I think it will get worse, perhaps a little back to the basics is in order.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
The pill is what, 99% effective? That leaves 1% so do you want your teenage daughter to be the 1%?"There are people who say that abstinence is the only method of contraception we should use. They say that condoms break. Well to them I say this: abstinence breaks a lot more easily than condoms do."

-Jocelyn Elders, M.D.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:You cant get pregnant if you dont have sex! (or artificial insemination {sp}) I never said that not having sex is easy.

Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:Because the devil often wins! People who are trying abstinence are human and hence open to temptation. Sex is good. Good things are good to do.

The Bible is just stories and you can easily argue it's legitimancy and relevenace. The simplest and most import fact that is so often over looked is this: God gave you a free mind, he gave you the ability to make a decision that you believe is right. If God wanted us to behave in a certain way he wouldn't have created us as we are, he would have limited us.

So, surely anyone who tries to restrict your actions and beliefs citing God's Will is going against God's will.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:That is 100% false Dom! God gave us the freedome to choose, yes. He did this so that we might choose him, not so that we may ruin our lives or lead a self destrucitive path.

God put the rules in place, not man! The Bible is alot more than a bunch of stories, there is historicle fact in the Bible.

Only one person in the history of earth is perfect, so the rest of the population screws up from time to time. It doesnt mean that God doesnt love you. He may punish someone, but it only means that he loves them and wants to get their attention.

I have never heard anyone get something so simple so wrong Dom. I am trully ashamed of you. All of your book smarts have finaly failed you, and in the most crucial areana.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

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Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

The Bible is alot more than a bunch of stories, there is historicle fact in the Bible.
To someone who doesn't follow the bible, it's just a bunch of stories, nothing more.
I wouldn't mind seeing any historical proof that events described in the bible actually happened if you have them or know where I can find them.

In an effort to myself clear so I don't run the risk of being flamed by anyone, I'm not asking for proof of your faith, since I know that the essence of faith is that it can't be proved.
I would like know what basis there is for using the bible as a history book though.


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:I will get back to you when I have my books and stuff with me, in about 4 months!!

One thing is a piller found that had the names of kings written, just as they were in the Bible (same order)

The order the Bible had them was believed to be wrong untill that piller was found.

I will dig up the factual info when I get all my stuff back, sorry I dont have it all memorised.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hey Ray, wot give you the right to talk for ALL christians, and why are you so defensive about christanity???

I mean this thread waz about a doctors ability to perform an important role in the community, and he is obviously not in a position to offer expert scientific and medical advice.

Look at most christian religions, and you will see that was men who put the rules in place, not god. Their suppression of sexuality, for example, has led to all sorts of problems. As a zillion or "so called" christian priests are up on one type of pedophilia charge or another, unfortunately

If ya take the bible literally, as for example with creationism, then the bible is full of fairy tales.

But, perhaps the worst thing about "so called" christanity is that it tries to deprive people of the ability of people to think for themselves.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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