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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I just got this E-mail this morning.
---------------------------------
FDA Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee:
Bush Selection Favors Prayer for PMS, and opposes the Use of Contraception by Unmarried Women.


President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist, and sources told Time magazine (see article below from Time, "Jesus and theFDA") that in his private practice he will not prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. He is also the author of a book, As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now which amongst other things suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying.

The Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee is responsible for offering expert scientific and medical advice to the FDA on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology, and related specialties. The committee's responsibilities include all contraceptive drugs and drugs used in performing medical abortion as well as drugs used for infertility
treatments, hormone replacement therapy and labor and delivery.
--------------------------------------------------------

Hoboy...this is not looking very good at all.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

Mike, the national religion is Christianity, meaning the majority of the population consider themselves Christion. So... look at it from a political point of view, do you please the masses or do you please the minority? If the masses will get you re-elected then you please them, that is if you want to be re-elected. Ray, the Constitution says that there is no national religion. It doesn't matter what the majority of the country is. In fact, John Adams specifically warned against the idea of a "tyrrany of the majority" whereby the minority's rights are completely suppressed because the majority wants things a certain way.

Regardless of what the majority of people in this country are, the Constitution says that laws should not respect establishments of religion, nor should they prohibit the free exercise of religion.

Making laws that are consistent with only one or a few religions would violate this clause. You might argue that the Constitution and the laws of the land are based on the Bible, but I could just as well argue that the laws are based on Torah, Talmud, Q'uran, or the laws of Hamurabi(sp?).

But when it comes down to whether unmarried women should be given access to contraceptives, or whether abortion should be permitted, there are widely differing views on those issues between the various religions in this country. Judaism requires abortion and even contraception in certain situations. Whether you believe that Christianity is the one true religion or not, the idea of the United States should be that religion doesn't play a role in deciding what is and isn't legal.

If this man plans to force his religious beliefs on the medical community at large, which is a very diverse community, by using his position, that would go against everything America should be about. It would be no better than the Taliban banning women from showing their faces.

In other words, according to the Constitution, religion is religion, and Christianity shouldn't get special dispensation just because the majority of people in the country happen to think it's the "right religion."

I've said it many times: I believe that Christianity is a beautiful religion and I have nothing against it. However, I am not a Christian and I do have a serious problem when people try to force me to follow purely Christian rules that don't apply in my religion.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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fluffy napalm fairy


fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land

Total posts: 3638
Posted:BACK ON THE ORIGINAL TOPIC -

Kali -

I like reading your posts. They're balanced and logical and educated. And make exactly the points I was going to.

Thank you sweetheart

In the last few weeks I have valued beyond anything I could imagine having a doctor I can talk to and trust. A doctor who gives me all the options, not just the ones he agrees with.

I think someone like that should be in charge.
'tis all

R xx

(edit: Spelling. Though I probably missed some...)

[ 13. November 2002, 04:28: Message edited by: fluffy napalm fairy ]


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Evolution? Really Ray? Even the Pope (recently) has acknowleged that evolution has a point.

Please note, Ray, that Darwin was one man who just happened to gather quite a bit of data. Unlike religion, scientists don't put much stock into a specific man but rather credit him with being the first to make such assumptions. The concept of "Darwinism" is one put on a scientific concept of evolution. No real scientist is going to use Darwin-the man- to prove anything. Many famous scientists, like Tycho Brahae (sp?) are famous ONLY because they got good data, not because they came to any conclusion.

Scientifically speaking, evolution is merely a trend of natural selection. Natural selection is pretty easily shown in everyday life. God did not put broccolli or colliflower or bananas or certain dog and cat breeds on this earth, nor did Noah take them on his arc. They only came into existance in the last couple thousand years. Bacteria evolve over days.

I really don't think that very many people understand the simple mechanism by which things evolve. Noone intelligent would ever say you were a fish. But what about black people? Are humans related to black people? What about asians? Did Noah take two asians/blacks/hispanics/etc. on the arc too? All of this is evolution. Any change from generation to generation is. It's easily shown in nature and it's going on today.

I'm sure you've got an excuse for all of it. And I clearly can't teach natural selection in one post. I can say that scientists, real ones-not the ones everyone here is discussing, do have a sense for how natural selection works. And most other people clearly don't.

I can say that science never ever contradicted anything in the bible. Simply because science never would acknoledge the bible as a source. Peoples interpretation of the Bible may contradict science, but never the other way around.

I guess that's a bad way of saying that science never tried to disprove anything in the bible. Scientific discovery is running it's own course. Then idiots decide to interpret both the bible and science and decide that it contradicts the Bible or God. I've never read anything in the bible which directly contradicts any science that I know, and yes, I've even looked. But I know many people who interpret it such that it will. Clearly that shows that the error lies not within both facts, but within the interpretation of both.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Dio


Dio

HoP Mechanical Engineer
Location: OK, USA

Total posts: 729
Posted:To take this back to the original argument of faith healing vs modern medicine, I'd like to point out something that I felt was relevant.

quote: Matthew 4:5-7
Then the devil led Jesus to the holy city of Jerusalem and put him on a high place of the Temple. The devil said, "If you are the Son of God, jump down, because it is written in the Scriptures: 'He has put his angels in charge of you. They will catch you in their hands so that you will not hit your foot on a rock.'" (Psalm 91:11-12)
Jesus answered him, "It also says in the Scriptures, 'Do not test the Lord your God.'" (Deuteronomy 6:13) Basic point of this is that, while faith is without doubt a powerful force capable of miraculous results, it's not something you should mindlessly depend on. I think that's the general opinion ppl are trying to get across, not that faith is impotent , but that it is not the only option . The Bible (New Century Version) seems to agree with this.


What hits the fan is not evenly distributed.

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Jade Lynx


member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...

Total posts: 239
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
I would like to see one person force their beliefs on the "ENTIRE" U.S. Ray, honey, it happens every day. Does the entire U.S> want to go bomb Irag? Does the entire U.S. think that the "War On Drugs" should even exist? Does the entire U.S. think that killing American civilans is terrorism while killing Iraqi civilians is just collatertal damage?
The way our government is set, it's really not that hard for one person to force their beliefs on the entire country. Dr. Hager can't make me believe the same way he does, but he can affect my everyday life. If i have consciously chosen not to bring another child into an already crowded world, why does HE get to decide whether i can avoid pregnancy only by abstinence. Is it reasonable for someone who has never even seen me to decide that either i take my chances getting pregnant or i never have intercourse ever again. My sex life is none of his goddamn business, thank you very much. I am an adult and i can make my own choices as to whether i am qualified or inclined to be a mother. Dr. Hager is NOT entitled to to decide whether i get to have intercourse.

quote:The birthcontrol pill thing I wasnt refering to, and that I did not know thanks for that bit of info.Does this help you understand what i am so upset about?

quote:Yes the way I see it, an attack on my beliefs is an attack on me.Welcome to my world. My beliefs are attacked every day.

quote:Mike, the national religion is ChristianityNope. No, it's not. There are prob more people who define themselves as Christian whether they practise or not, but this is NOT a Christian country. There are more females than males, is this a female country? There are more whites than blacks, does that make this a white country?
FIRST amendment...

quote:If the masses will get you re-elected then you please them, that is if you want to be re-elected.But is getting re-elected more important than serving the ENTIRE populace of the nation, whose taxes are paying your salary? Politics say yes, the Hippocratic Oath says no.

And the reason you've never encountered a Wiccan trying to convert you is that Wicca specifically avoids prosteletyzing (sp?). A Wiccan who went around trying to convert people would soon have no community, because it's just not the Wiccan way.

*Quick sidebar* You might mention to your friend that the word "Warlock" actually means "oathbreaker". Someone who was called a warlock would be someone who had been cast out of their group for some breach of promise. Your frined may wish to do a bit of etymological research and find a word with a meaning more to his choosing. You are welcome to pm me for a reading list for him if he's interested.

Finally, let me reiterate that i have no objection to your faith, nor to Dr. Hager's faith. I object only to Dr. Hager using a goverment position to advance a personal religious platform.


We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Look, point in case, either we are wormfood when we die or we are destind for another place. Believe what you will, hate what you will, quote and call something bull shit if you will. I will believe what I will, and if I am wrong and we are all just worm food, then I dont think that I have not lost a damn thing. So what if I have never seen the coulourfull world of ex or acid, so what.

I will live my life how I see fit, whats it to you?

We will see in the end, if I am right then great for me and it sucks for you, if I am wrong and there is nothing who cares.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

Intrepid Penguin


Total posts: 5635
Posted:right,
so up until the most previous post, i'd like to congratulate Ray on the context of his arguments. It shows he has come a LONG way since i first joined this forum, and his points are concise, and his language exact to getting the meaning of his posts accross. Kudos to Ray, thankyou for taking your time to comment.

Another thing he stresses, is that this is His BELIEF. He isnt trying to force his belief down your throats either. So how about we all lay off? The religion/creationism/evolution/darwinism debate has been going on for centuries and centuries, and will continue to go on. There comes a certain point in time, where if you are to remain being CIVIL with someone, you will just have to say, "alright! i accept that this is your opinion, as i have my own." Personally, i think this thread has gone well OVER this point, and its getting quite a nasty tension again.

perhaps, you could take your creationism/darwinism/evolutionism discussions to pm please. I think Mike Ginny had a really important point when he started this thread, but it has just been hijacked to a point, where it is no longer the topic of discussion, and that is unfortunate and not at all nice to read.


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:
Non-Https Image Link


[ 13. November 2002, 17:21: Message edited by: flash fire ]


HoP Posting Guidelines
Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
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If you can answer YES to these 4 questions then you may post a reply.

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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

Intrepid Penguin


Total posts: 5635
Posted:Ahhhhhhhhh Flash, you make my day! i'm sitting here giggling like crazy now.....

Currently on the right side up of the world.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:That’s one opinion. I think the thread got hijacked on the sixth post, in a similar way to many other threads have been hijacked recently.

I certainly feel that some people’s belief’s ARE being forced down my throat.

And despite all that, many posts have, at least partially, remained on topic.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:*Laughs* While I believe my friend Flynt is right, I must laugh at Stone's last little quip, so did you have to count when my first post on this topic was or what?

You know if you dont like what people say, dont listen, if you dont like what they say dont read. If you dont want someones opinion dont ask for it.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Ray, while you're ordering people around I'd just like to add

don't bite at every opportunity, Ray.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hmm... been takin orders for a few years now, and what I just said doesnt sound like an order. More like advice.

Ohh well hehe I need to quit beating the perverbial dead horse.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Flynt:
There comes a certain point in time, where if you are to remain being CIVIL with someone, you will just have to say, "alright! i accept that this is your opinion, as i have my own." Personally, i think this thread has gone well OVER this point, and its getting quite a nasty tension again.
Amen Sister
I decided this earlier and stopped posting on this thread because I knew it was pretty much pointless trying to get Ray to question his faith for a while (Although I don't agree with it, Ray's dedication to his faith deserves my respect).
I hadn't read this thread in a while and I have to say that I'm shocked how hostile people have become trying to argue their points.
I think it's now time for everyone to call it a day and move onto something more worthwhile. Or get back onto topic

Personally, my view is that people should keep their own beliefs out of their working lives.
Unless they're priests/ministers etc obviously


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:
As a doc he can run his practice as he wants inside certain guide lines. Now I am guessing that his practice is successfull, so I dont see what the big deal is. Just becuase he recomends things that are different, doesnt mean that he should be looked at with such disgust! When you have acupuncture and the "here eat this root" type medicine, why is it so hard for people to believe that maybe there is something to the Bible?I am going back an taking another look at my first post, how exactly is that above (also known as "the sixth post") off topic?

It is still about the Doctor, it is still about his religion.

Yes this got off topic but it didnt start here.

I guess I am offended at this attack on me. I tried to just brush it off as Stone just wanting to get the last say.

Heaven forbid I stand up for something. I may not be very political in how I come accross, but just like it has been said before thats my right.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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flash fire
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

flash fire

Sporadically Prodigal
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2758
Posted:Ray - Please pursue this with Stone via PM. No more flaming on this thread from anyone.

Thanks

(edited cos I got the wrong composition of sand!)

[ 14. November 2002, 14:52: Message edited by: flash fire ]


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Cantus
SILVER Member since Jul 2001

Cantus

Tantamount to fatuity
Location: Down the road

Total posts: 15965
Posted:Was it UHT sand perchance? Cos I do that a fair bit.

"I'll carry this....It's harder to spill a hat" - Chellybean
"...like a rabbit caught in a lighthouse?" - Chellybean

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Jade Lynx


member
Location: Laguna Beach, but i live in De...

Total posts: 239
Posted:OFF TOPIC!

Flash, where did you get that peacebomb smiley? That's terrific!

I hope i haven't been who anyone means as far as attacking anyone elses beliefs ..

Anyway, my thoughts are pretty well expressed above, so i'm calling it done.

Raymond, i don't especially expect ever to share your beliefs, but i respect them, and i'm glad that you have so much devotion to your faith.


We got the MikeZ in the house, woot!Glue the ham, hat baby!

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Kali
BRONZE Member since Apr 2002

member
Location: Berlin, Germany

Total posts: 577
Posted:quote: Kali -

I like reading your posts. They're balanced and logical and educated. And make exactly the points I was going to.

Thank you sweetheart

Aww! Thank you, darling!


Flynt and Flash, you guys expressed everything perfectly. Thank you.



Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:I have a few points to make here.

First off, ALL recognised religions are historical in origin, and have factual basis. That does not make an arguement for being right at all. Thing is Ray, Christianity is not the only recognised religion, politically or historically, and in fact, much of the Christian history coincides/clashes with many other religions. You follow a book written from one side of the story, and others follow a testament written from a different perspective. In order to get along with other people, this must really be understood.

Next, ALL mythos and most stories which compile these religions are also based on fact, "based" being the opperative word because as time passes word definitions change, stories were stretched in the oral tradition and again altered in translation.

There is no absolute FACT about any book, document or other as old as the bible, especially because of how many translations and edits it has been through. That is why the modern incarnation is called a VERSION. The stories are just that, versions of moralistic tales from which to draw lessons. Just like Aesops fables, the tales of Anansi, Finn McCoul and Heracles.
Based on this, there is no right and no wrong in any religious discussion we might have, there are only opinions, points of view and personal choice.
Ray, you know I love you but your tone really is too forceful here. You can not make people believe the way that you do, not in this forum and not with the lack of a corporeal God to stand behind you and prove everyone else wrong.

Now, onto the other points. Actually, if he is the sole physician available to women under the new HMO policies then he *is* pushing his beliefs on others. Not everyone has access to every doctor, and as HMO's become more common and more restricting, it is harder and harder to have choices about where to go. Not to mention distances travelled.
Here is a little shared story about Pele....
I was raped several years ago. I became pregnant from that encounter. When my boyfriend at the time (not PWB!) found out, he beat me very badly, killing the fetus inside me. However, my body did not expell the baby and I was suffering fetal poisoning (the fetus was decaying in the womb and poisoning me). That dead baby was killing me. Because of my insurance, I had the choice of two places to go for a special abortion process that I needed (D&L). Both were several hours away. One I couldn't get an appointment for months because they were overbooked so...I had to ride on a bus for 11 hours across the state to have this two day procedure done. I crossed a picket line with people who called me a baby murderer and who threw plastic rosaries and mini-bibles at me, all because my insurance wouldn't cover anyone closer to home or more descreet.

This man is anti-abortion as well Ray. If I had to go to his practice for my help at that time, I would have died, and there is nothing, NOTHING that reading the bible could have done for me. How many women in his practice have gotten pregnant from rapes because he told them to read the bible?
See, sometimes Ray, there is no choice, but what he is doing severely limits what options we do have.

Now, onto the bigger picture. It is his personal practice, though I do not think he has the right to do with it as he pleases, evidentally, he does. He is a public servant. That is like saying that a fireman has the right to choose whether or not to pray for rain instead of squashing the fire to me.

This very closed minded man is taking an official office. He has a history of religious partiality.
Now, there are laws in effect which dictate there be a seperation of church and state. This means that he has to be unbiased in his decision as a holder of a government office. I, personally, do not think he is capable of this and so therefore should not be appointed.
It does not surprise me at all that this is coming from GWB, it just frightens me. I am afraid to think what will come next.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Pele, your baby was dead. At that point it is a still born not an abortion. I am very very sorry to hear about such an awefull thing. I am so suprised at your then boyfriends reaction. I am really angerd by this.

On a last note, this man (I dont know if he has taken office yet) is untested. Nobody knows how he will act under the circumstances that he has been placed in. You dont know right now. You can speculate you can guess but you dont know. He has been appointed, give him a chance. Who would have thought that a self edjucated red neck hick could become a lawyer and then one of our greatest presidents.

Flashfire, it wasnt a flame. You should know what a flame from me looks like, that wasnt a flame by any comparison. however I will point future items like that twords PMs.

[ 15. November 2002, 00:56: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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el beardo
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

member
Location: london, uk

Total posts: 72
Posted:There are few things i like more than a discussion which turns into an argument over religion.

No offence Raymond, but ur turning all this into a long drawn out example of what happen when beliefs get tainted by dogmatism. Everything ur bible says MUST be right because, after all, thats what ur bible says. Of course, there's that little bit of hisorical evidence to support odd bits of ur book, so everything else, by some wonderfull inductive principle, must be true. And damm all u heretics. (sorry, I made up that last bit)

I wasnt going to join this dogmatic repitition of yours, after all, theres no question as to which one of us knows ur book best, and unless ur going to let me "prove" my points by simply pointing to the text in my book i have no hope of making any difference to this argument. However, u made me laugh and i couldnt help myself from bringing this up:

Let us assume ur right, espicifically that the bible is right, the word of god is right, etc etc.

now, about two thirds of the way down the first page of this discussion, in regards to abstinence, u said:
"You cant get pregnant if you dont have sex! (or artificial insemination {sp}) I never said that not having sex is easy." (sorry, i dont know how to do that whole quoting thing that everyone else is doing)

how can u say that as a god fearing, bible believing Christian? are u a fraud? or do u not know ur little book and ur religion as well as u seem to suggest u do?

I was under the impression that a pretty basic and relatively important part of ur religion, which i believe is stressed in ur book is all about how a certain woman got pregnant without having known a man's touch (just in case i'm not being obvious, im talking about mary's immaculate conception - no, not madonna's album!) so, either raymond is right, and u cant get pregnant without sex, and the bible is wrong, or raymond is wrong, and christianity lives to fight another day.

For someone who makes his arguments from a largely dogmatic point of view, u ignored/forgot a pretty important part of christian dogma. If ur going to make ur argument rest on the truth of christianity, at least stick to it.

my "not-even-two-cents",

Beard


May your staff spin fast and your poi always miss your balls.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:This may seem over the top, but it is on topic.

The reason I fear extremists like Dr. Hager being appointed to positions of power and influence is because, I think, it heralds a new era of darkness. An era, when all medical advancements will be swept aside by ignorance, and well-meaning but ultimately misguided beliefs.

From what I can gather (and please correct me if I’m wrong about these assumptions) there has been a substantial rise in acceptance of creationism by some communities is the States. Well-meaning creationists object to evolution being taught in schools. They get elected to school boards, and evolution is removed from the curriculum. Next thing you know creationism is being taught instead of science.

There may well be truth in the quote from Thomas Jefferson: "The philosophy in the school room in one generation, will be the philosophy of the government in the next." But its only a half truth. I think the Jesuit’s (an educational order of catholic priests) said it better with: “Give me a child at the at the age of seven, and I’ll have them for life.” The point being, who really influences the philosophy of the government.

Without science and an unbiased education system we will slowly slip into another Dark Age. An era where fact will be replaced by myth because there are no facts in creationism, just belief. Diseases like the plague, TB, whooping cough and polio will start to reappear and the age will be black for a millennium.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Wow, so every woman out there is touched by God. hmm I dont pretend to know God's will but since Mary I dont recall ever, ever anyone claming to be pregnant with no sperm!

I do believe that you can clearly see that I was not talking about Mary mother of Jesus. Another perfect example of quoting out of context!

Perhaps you should have put in your whole two cents and reread my post, perhaps then you would have realsised that I was talking about women now and not Mary.

Stone, when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.

Second off, if you want to be PC, neither creationisim nor evoloution should be tought in the classroom.

Science is not bad, there is nothing wrong with science, infact it was one of my favorite subjects in school. (bet you can guess what my least favorite one was too ) Teach science, NYC keep on teaching Chemistry. Those things are good. With out science we would not be having this conversation!

Stone, believe what you will about how the earth got here. I can not believe that there is any fact in any theory of evoloution just as you cant believe there there is fact in creation.

You cant change my mind and obviusly you wont change yours. Quit crying and assuming about things, you dont know the future. I dont know it either but I dont dwell on the unknown I focous on what I do know.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ray, I know I used your quote, but my comments were not really directed at you (certainly not personally). It was more of a general comment, trying to sort out a few issues in me head so they link up with what I said previously about Dr Hager, creationism and all that. Done arguing.

[ 15. November 2002, 16:37: Message edited by: Stone ]


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:Ok, so i jumped in a little late. Ad some people prolly stopped readig by now.... but here's some thoughts.

quote: Origially posted by Celeste:
And does this mean that sex education will once again only be based on abstinance? Didn't anyone realize that it didn't work the last time? Sex education is mostly "abstinence oly programs at the minute. And Bush has ofte talked about how those are the only ones that should get funding.

quote: Originally posted by MikeGiny:
Also, M.D.'s practicing as mainstream physicians should not be using faith healing. Or herbs. I won't use either. I will refer my patients to herbalists if I see fit, or to faith healers if I see fit, for that matter.

This doctor's practice was not terribly successful, in fact. He's scantily credentialed and is strongly opposed by the AMA.

And the fact that this sort of thing is getting into our government is yet another reason why I want to leave the country.
Amen. I keep being scared that i should get out before i can't leave. But at the same time i have a misplaced sense of loyalty... after all the system did't fail me if it did't exactly work ... no, actually most of the system was shit but i beat it. Had one advantage, used it to beat teh rest.

quote: Originally posted byy Toneman:
How many other states allow peeps to drive with their hunting rifles in the back window of their pickup?
I think MI does.

quote: Origially posted by Ray:
The populous on this board is so open minded when it comes to whichcraft and Wicca but when someone mentions Christianity they are right winged hate full spawns of Satan.
Ray, you take thigs so far out of proportion i can't eve belive it sometimes.

quote: Originally posted by NYC:
[Also, I kinda frown upon the sentence "Dom, your a moron" not only because it's spelled wrong but because it's a direct personal attack. I know that Dom can take it but it's something that I hate to see on HoP. But that's just me...] not just you.

quote: Originally posted by Ray:
Wow, NYC I understand what you mean I really do. I am sure that you do not bring your views on there is no truth into the classroom, not only would it be unprofessional, but it would solidify my facorite quote from Thomas Jefferson, "The philosiphy in the school room in one gerneration will be the philosiphy of the government in the next." If you were to teach the no truth no religion philosiphy of yours you would undermind the very reason that this country was founded.
I generally find that teachers have to ot say aything about their beliefs for fear of getting sued, altho oddly christia teachers i some districts get away with it, and in otehr districts only christian teachers can't. As to udermining the very reason this country was founded.....perhaps... but i'd like to pretend the religious freedom thing meant that, and not just "freedom of christianity." is that ok? cause that's what's the words say.

quote: Originally posted by MikeGiny:
Death need not be the forcing point of religion, Ray. Health, not necessarily death, also makes a great threat.

With this man in charge of the reproductive health division of the FDA he has the ability to force his religious beliefs on an entire nation, and that chills me to the bone.
Yup. I agree.

quote: Oriiginally posted by MikeGinny:
Because in my religion, abortion is not only permitted under certain circumstances, it's required under certain circumstances.
Could you articulate these circumstances? I'm just curious.

quote: Originally posted by MikeGinny:
And this is not a Christian nation No, but it was founded on christianity and based on christianity. So it's about as close as ur likely to get.

quote: Originally posted by Ray:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With this man in charge of the reproductive health division of the FDA he has the ability to force his religious beliefs on an entire nation, and that chills me to the bone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to see one person force their beliefes on the "ENTIRE" US. The US is so diversified that no one ideal can be accepted by everyone. Not even the ideal on what freedome is.
Yeah, but he can make it impossible to get stuff legally. That would suck, wouldn't it?

quote: Originally posted by Ray:
How is it relevent? When quoted out of context like that it seems a rather unrelevent statement. I was refering to how some religions have the tendoncy to force their religion.
Religious minorities have historically faired better under muslim governments tha christian ones.

quote: Originally posted by Aardvark:
Examples please. Want the converse? The spanish inquisition. The phrase conversion by the sword was pretty much defined there.

I have a fairly decent grasp of middle eastern history. Give me examples, dates, people. Not to nitpick, but you made a sweeping statement. Support it.
He has a point, ad it's a good one.

quote:Origially posted by Ray:
Ardvark, what does the spanish inquisition have to do with the US, my history is a bit ruff but was the Americas even found when that was happening?
er.... if all you wat is teh us, then i wouldn't suggest christian vs. all non-christian hate crimes.... that's prolly a worse record than usig the world!

quote: Origially posted bt Aardvark:
The parts of a house aren't self replicating

quote: Origially posetd by MikeGinny:
Regardless of what the majority of people in this country are, the Constitution says that laws should not respect establishments of religion, nor should they prohibit the free exercise of religion.
It's in te words. At that point, I don't thik intent matters. (see some previous remark i made)

quote: Originally posted by MikeGinny:
Making laws that are consistent with only one or a few religions would violate this clause. You might argue that the Constitution and the laws of the land are based on the Bible, but I could just as well argue that the laws are based on Torah, Talmud, Q'uran, or the laws of Hamurabi(sp?).

Actually, you can't. There's some very christian thoughts and ideals i our government. Torah? sure, go ahead. But Q'uran? I don't think so. I don't know eough about these to quote, but there's a lot of journalistic talk about imposing christian/jewish based ideals o other coutries right now.

quote: Originally posetd by MikeGiy:
In other words, according to the Constitution, religion is religion, and Christianity shouldn't get special dispensation just because the majority of people in the country happen to think it's the "right religion."

Too true.

quote: Origially posted by FNF:
In the last few weeks I have valued beyond anything I could imagine having a doctor I can talk to and trust. A doctor who gives me all the options, not just the ones he agrees with.
Lucky lucky girl. I hoep everything is ok tho?

quote:Origially posted by STone:
The reason I fear extremists like Dr. Hager being appointed to positions of power and influence is because, I think, it heralds a new era of darkness. An era, when all medical advancements will be swept aside by ignorance, and well-meaning but ultimately misguided beliefs.

From what I can gather (and please correct me if Im wrong about these assumptions) there has been a substantial rise in acceptance of creationism by some communities is the States. Well-meaning creationists object to evolution being taught in schools. They get elected to school boards, and evolution is removed from the curriculum. Next thing you know creationism is being taught instead of science.

There may well be truth in the quote from Thomas Jefferson: "The philosophy in the school room in one generation, will be the philosophy of the government in the next." But its only a half truth. I think the Jesuits (an educational order of catholic priests) said it better with: Give me a child at the at the age of seven, and Ill have them for life. The point being, who really influences the philosophy of the government.

Without science and an unbiased education system we will slowly slip into another Dark Age. An era where fact will be replaced by myth because there are no facts in creationism, just belief. Diseases like the plague, TB, whooping cough and polio will start to reappear and the age will be black for a millennium. wow. quite a post there. but u have a point. not, per se, today. but it took us over 1400 years to have a society as good as the romans again.... i'd like to see more of ur thoughts o this.

quote: Origially posted by Ray:
Science is not bad, there is nothing wrong with science, infact it was one of my favorite subjects in school. (bet you can guess what my least favorite one was too ) Teach science, NYC keep on teaching Chemistry. Those things are good. With out science we would not be having this conversation!
what about biology?

and pele.... eeesh! at least u had isurance at all, but still! Glad it's in the past

Peace & Love all....
Kyri


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:Hmm I thought NYC tought Chemistry, if I am mistaken and he teaches bioligy then please someone correct me.

I however think I know where you ment to go with that last comment, Bioligy is scince I have 1 heart 2 lungs 11 fingers and toes (so I didnt fare well at Bio hehe)

But to say that I came from a damn dirty ape or a puddle of goop and call it science is hogwash!

There is no fact and last I knew science is fact, however there is no science in Creationisim either, it is a matter of faith, but there is more to suggest my faith is right than there is to suggest it wrong.

Ardvark houses might not split and grow but nothing can form something from nothing without devine intervention. I want you to go to your lab, start with nothing and create something only using nothing. When you do that I will crown you as god, untill then it cant happen and nothing else is right!

God spoke it into existance other than that what do you need to know?

Kirain said in responce to my post:
quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ray:
How is it relevent? When quoted out of context like that it seems a rather unrelevent statement. I was refering to how some religions have the tendoncy to force their religion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Religious minorities have historically faired better under muslim governments tha christian ones.
Guessing at this I think she meant that persons of different religions other than Muslim while under Muslim rule have fared better than persons of different religions under Christian rule.

The year is 2002 we have different societies now, the way we view things is different than from times the Bible speeks of. Is that not correct?

If you look at something forgine (sp) and judge it by your standerds then it will always look harsh or wrong, silly or just plain stupid.

People who opposed the Isrialites, back in the time frame that the Bible speeks of, were not out to share land, they were out to either inslave, or just flat out obliterate the Isrialites. Kill or be killed, sorry I dont know about you but I would be doing the killing not the other choice.

So if you cant coexist one of you have to to die or move off. Since we are talking about limited fertile land, moving off isnt much of an option.

All I am trying to say is that the sitiuation is compleatly different now, you need to keep that in mind.

Lets look back within the last 100 years, who are the ones that have been slaughterd for their religion? The Jews ring a bell. Now if you try a well the US is out to kill Muslims I will use this defence. When the Japanesse attacked America, pulling us into WWII, was it a matter of budists killing Christians?

quote: quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ray:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With this man in charge of the reproductive health division of the FDA he has the ability to force his religious beliefs on an entire nation, and that chills me to the bone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to see one person force their beliefes on the "ENTIRE" US. The US is so diversified that no one ideal can be accepted by everyone. Not even the ideal on what freedome is.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, but he can make it impossible to get stuff legally. That would suck, wouldn't it?
He can not make something that is currently leagle, illeagle without some sort of committy, it is called checks and balances.

Kirian, one of the towns next to my home town called Muleshoe Texas, banned prayer IN ANY FORM. Is that fair to someone who wants to pray that there are no injouries or everyone has good sportsmanship?

Man I just lost about half an hour of rebutle when I hit the wrong set of keys. If I wasnt so angry I would continue.

[ 15. November 2002, 21:44: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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el beardo
BRONZE Member since Nov 2001

member
Location: london, uk

Total posts: 72
Posted:First, I freely admit that my last post was not entirely serious, but partly an attempt to show the futility of this argument. I realise u were excluding the example that falsified your argument when u made that statement, and, for sake of peace and harmony on HoP, I fully retract the statement.

However, I fell the time has come for me to say something seriously. For the past three pages, it seems that everyone is trying to make their points in polite, and most of all respectfull ways, trying not to offend others. EXCEPT for you, raymond. U r taking offence at nething u dont like, construying it as an attack against you, and in return often being offensive to individuals (for example, i believe u called poor old Dom a moron - dont worry Dom, we still love ya), and also being disrectpectuffull to other people's beliefs. If everyone else were to have ur attitude, a lot of people would think that u r making personal attacks on them.

If u r going to disregard the possibility of other people's beliefs, dont bitch when others dont accept yours either. Ur walking down the road of religious fanaticism and bigotry. I really never expected to see such disrespect and, to be honest, ignorance on this site, and amongst the community that uses this site.

We dont all think like you raymond. we dont all choose to follow the teachings of ur books. i know it means that, according to u, many of us will burn in hell, but its our choice. accept it. move one, grow up.

I apologise if this post has come out sounding ruder than it had to, but i really can't stand bigotry.

Oh, and by the way, the level of ur arguments really dont deserve the investment of a whole two cents.

beard


May your staff spin fast and your poi always miss your balls.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Hallo! Just posting to say that I've read through all this, all very interesting, educational and funny at places. I've almost fallen of my chair a couple of times, but that could be half due to the drugs I've currently got running round my body

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:quote: Originally posted by Ray:
I however think I know where you ment to go with that last comment, Bioligy is scince I have 1 heart 2 lungs 11 fingers and toes (so I didnt fare well at Bio hehe) Yup, that's where i was going. I think NYC teaches Chem too. I'm ot going to try and argue about evolution with you, i just wanted to see if you accepted biology as good.

quote:
I want you to go to your lab, start with nothing and create something only using nothing. When you do that I will crown you as god, until then it cant happen and nothing else is right! I am Thor god of thunder! Rarh!
ok, i'm sorry, i'm really tired and a little sick, taht was a tad rude. What I meant to say is that some previous religions have been proven wrong, and just because we don't know about something doesn't mean it's impossible. i.e. just because we don't know how to make something from othing (in this case create a universe?) doesn't mean it can't be done.

quote:The year is 2002 we have different societies now, the way we view things is different than from times the Bible speeks of. Is that not correct?I wasn't really referring to the times of the bible either, but i admit within the last 30 years muslim countries have become much less tolerant places to live. I still don't think there's aywhere near the scale of violence you suggested, but I would have to ask Aardvark about that as I have little knowledge on recet middle eastern history.

quote:If you look at something forgine (sp) and judge it by your standerds then it will always look harsh or wrong, silly or just plain stupid. I agree, but what is this relavnet to?

I don't think the US is out to kill Muslims. Lets just clear that up.

It is hard to delegalize things taht are legal, but ot all so hard as that. He can get it started, that's for sure.

quote:Kirian, one of the towns next to my hote town called Muleshoe Texas, banned prayer IN ANY FORM. Is that fair to someone who wants to pray that there are no injouries or everyone has good sportsmanship? Nope. That's unconstitutional, as it happens.

quote:Man I just lost about half an hour of rebutle when I hit the wrong set of keys. If I wasnt so angry I would continue.
sorry bout that.

Kyri


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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