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Mint Sauce
BRONZE Member since Sep 2003

veteran
Location: Lancs England

Total posts: 1453
Posted:Legalize Cannabis Yes/No

I'm only starting a new thread on this because I wanted to put a poll into it to get a judge of opinion there are a few topics relating to cannabis (go search)

To start of I would like to ask the question should it be Legalized. And your opinions on why or why not.


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Chronofracture



........
2) Buy/find a small notebook and a pen. Then, for a month, every time you wish to partake in your addiction write down your reasons for doing so. No guilt trips, just your reasons for that particular cigarette/coffee/mars bar.

3) At the end of the month examine your notes. Do your reasons seem sensible, can you see any patterns, did you care enough to finish the experiment?

4) With this personal information, decide what if anything you wish to do about your addiction.

And in answer to the threads title, all drugs should be legalised. But then I also believe there should be no laws, so it's a bit of a moot point...




 Written by: Chronofracture



@ OWD - what did you think of the rest of my advice?

I don't have a problem with AC writing books, nor people buying them, this is the way of the world. But as with the rest of the self help market, how many buy his books and in fact don't sort out their problems...

Why is this? Maybe because people are looking for a way out of their situation whilst at the same time taking no responsibility for it. The way his work is marketed feeds into this desire. The information his books contains is good, as with many self help books, but it is marketed in this way.

I'm overjoyed if someone reads one of these books and is inspired into a better understanding of themselves and their situation. This can be the start of a process which leads to positive change. Without this understanding, you may stop smoking (and there are many ways to stop someone smoking), but you won't address the underlying reasons for why you started, or then displacing that behavior onto another addiction.

Funnily enough I believe that overcoming an addiction, in a similar way to dealing with a period of insanity, can be one of the most transformative experiences a person can have. Leading to a sense of empowerment and self-control that few other paths in our safe western world can provide. There is no "easy way", only conflict leads to change.



One reason not everyone who buys the book don't sort out their addiction is because, for most long term nicotine addicts, quitting smoking is very hard- the undestanding necessary to escape it can be elusive.

I've known many people who are put off by what they see as the dogmatic/authoratitive tone of the book; I've known many who quite simply didn't understand the book and some who believed they understood it but, when they explain their understanding, they obviously haven't.

And, of course, many read the book and fail to quit because they don't believe one of the central points that it makes (such as the importance of, having quit, never have 'just one cigarette'; or its advice not to use substitutes (patches, herbal cigarettes etc). Often, after more failed attempts following traditional methods, they go back to Carrs book and, with the benefit of experience, see that his points are indeed valid, quit again, and succeed (this is what happened to me).

As to the rest of your advice- it's sound enough- taking notes is something I believe strongly in.

It's not the way i quit, and, given that I've not personally tried that approach with smoking or seen the results of anyone else using it, it's not an approach I personally would recomend.

I highly recommned Carrs approach because it's the one that worked with me, i've seen others succeed with it and I understand how and why it works so well.

Overall though, your advice seems to be focused on a kind of psyco-analytical approach focused more on self-understanding than actually quitting.

 Written by:


4) With this personal information, decide what if anything you wish to do about your addiction.




I think most who read Carrs book have made the decision that they're tired of being addicted and they want to know how to quit.

Additionally, as an ex-nicotine addict who is now free of it for life, I have certain opinions about smoking, one of which is that any smoker who's under the impression that they want to smoke for any reason other than being addicited, or that smoking carries any benefits to them; is deluded.


 Written by:


Funnily enough I believe that overcoming an addiction, in a similar way to dealing with a period of insanity, can be one of the most transformative experiences a person can have. Leading to a sense of empowerment and self-control that few other paths in our safe western world can provide. There is no "easy way", only conflict leads to change.




I agree, that overcoming addiction is a highly transformative experience; however, IMO, this is not only due to the self-understanding gained and the ability to disengage from and disable the habitual thought patterns that previously sustained the addiction; it is also because freeing oneself from the insiduous mental/spiritual effects of nicotine/other drug, itself facilitates transformation.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted: Written by: Chronofracture


how many buy his books and in fact don't sort out their problems...

Why is this? Maybe because people are looking for a way out of their situation whilst at the same time taking no responsibility for it. The way his work is marketed feeds into this desire.




hmmmm, did you actually understand the book?

now i don't know anything about the marketing because i haven't seen any....i was recommended it individually by 4 different people who have (so far!) completely given up smoking based on the advice he gave.

i'm not sure that you do comprehend it fully, because a lot of the method is to do with taking responsibility, not letting someone else do the work. he talks about not relying on anything else, but your own will power...how that encourages people to give up responsibility is beyond me. as far as i can see he's making people more responsible for their own decisions than pretty much every other method i've seen, as most of them seem at the very least to advocate using patches or whatever.

if you want a quick fix with no effort....well, i don't thnk alan carr is the way to go.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Chronofracture333


Chronofracture333

Hobo Gaylord
Location: I am worldwide and lush

Total posts: 329
Posted:@ Tao Star



Did you understand my post? As I said in it his books do contain a really useful perspective on nicotine addiction.

And as far as I remember, and it has been a while, his approach is similar to cognitive therapy, it seeks to change the way you think about smoking. To replace ideas that keep you scared and trapped in your behavior, with a more positive set of beliefs. Ones that will naturally lead you to change your behavior. Change ideas, change behavior. No willpower required anymore because there is no longer any conflict between what you want, and those unquestioned assumptions.

But you say " he talks about not relying on anything else, but your own willpower".



You did not appear to understand my post, you do not appear to understand Allen Carr.



meditate



I was suggesting was that all the good ideas/methods in the world will do no good unless put into action. I believe everyone is possessed of the ability to examine themselves honestly, see through their own lies, and act accordingly. However hard that might be. And that the self help market is one I have problems with.



@ OWD



Not suggesting this for everyone, but I know several people who only quit, having tried many times, after large doses of LSD. Same with other problems...



And while we're on the subject of Allen Carr, I've only read one of his books but....



Allen Carr writes a book on quitting ciggarettes, cool he's an ex-smoker he might have something useful to say on the matter. Allen Carr writes another book on smoking, ok, maybe he didn't get everything down first time. Allen Carr writes books on how women and children can stop smoking, I'm starting to get worried. Allen Carr writes on how to stop drinking, was he ever an alchoholic? This is just dangerous. Allen Carr writes on how to stop worrying, lose weight, be succesful or any other self help topic he can get his name on. He's just another explotative hack.

EDITED_BY: Chronofracture (1143821186)


*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*

"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted: Written by: Chronofracture


@ Tao Star

Did you understand my post? As I said in it his books do contain a really useful perspective on nicotine addiction.
And as far as I remember, and it has been a while, his approach is similar to cognitive therapy, it seeks to change the way you think about smoking. To replace ideas that keep you scared and trapped in your behavior, with a more positive set of beliefs. Ones that will naturally lead you to change your behavior. Change ideas, change behavior. No willpower required anymore because there is no longer any conflict between what you want, and those unquestioned assumptions.
But you say " he talks about not relying on anything else, but your own willpower".

You did not appear to understand my post, you do not appear to understand Allen Carr.

meditate

I was suggesting was that all the good ideas/methods in the world will do no good unless put into action. I believe everyone is possessed of the ability to examine themselves honestly, see through their own lies, and act accordingly. However hard that might be. And that the self help market is one I have problems with.






woah! ok there!

all i was saying is that the 'ignore it and hope it will go away' method suggested by AC is just another way of giving yourself willpower, and since it doesn't use any other aid, it is entirely based on willpower, whatever language he uses to get round it.

i think anyone who's tried or suceeded in giving up wil say that, even though this method can be helpful, there will still come points when you have to resist...you can't really just 'become' a non smoker. and saying to yourself, 'i no longer smoke' is an effective way of dealing with it.

well, it worked for a few people i know.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:This gentleman is simply applying cognitive methods to a problem. He found it worked with smoking, and wrote about some specific arguments to attempt to change the readers perception of smoking. Someone coming into reading his book is probably incapable of quitting themselves and is already looking for such arguments.

As I disagree that smoking is inherently evil, and because I completely disagree with OWD about the "delusion" factor smokers possess, and because *I* don't have a problem controlling such habits, I don't agree with Mr Car. HOWEVER I do respect OWD's possition as such a belief structure is central to his methodology of staying nicotine free, and because that makes him happy I'm glad his viewpoint worked for him.

Don't take this the wrong way... but harping on everyone else that they are "deluded" and you are the only one with the correct belief... it runs so parallel to religious belief structure that I think this is why I'm so put off by the possition. In a way, it seems to me that by applying this book you are simply planting a DIFFERENT delusion into your head with the purpose of achieving a goal which you have found you don't appear to be able to do (NOTE: I fundamentally disagree with this point of view, as OWD knows. I believe we have the power to change anything about ourselves, though it appears to be "impossible" sometimes.). Now you are forced into believing THIS delusion and never see a more balanced neutral viewpoint.

I'm not saying that's necessarily bad. If it doesn't really matter to you how you view the subject, then this is a perfectly good way to change the thing you want to change. Probably one of the best actually. However, I disagree that this is the only correct view to take. That viewpoint works great for one person. It wouldn't for me, and for a great number of other people. But just saying that "all smokers are deluded" falls victom to a fallacy.

But as I say, that's not necessarily bad. If you're in it for the pragmatic solution, it's a GREAT pragmatic way to achieve an ends. I personally don't think the ends justifies the means, because I'm not a PURE pragmatist... but I see the value of the position which is why I think the method is a good one for some people. I just feel the method is incomplete because it leaves the new non-smoker with an unresolved NEW delusion which might cause them distress in other ways... for instance, worrying about everyone else who isn't keen to this new enlightened way of thinking. The clear parellel to cult initiation ritual is here (I'm using cult in a purely non-conotative manner here meaning "religious, group-think, etc."): break them, initiate them, rebuild them. It's also one of the reasons I don't care for organized religion.

That being said, I do USE this though with my smoker friends, and even my girlfriend. I don't particularly like the smell of cigarettes all the time anymore and I hate living in a cloud against my will. At the same time, I still have a cigarette every once in a while when I'm drinking and such (maybe two or three a month, if that). That's the thing though: my viewpoint changes based on many factors. I have very few fundamental beliefs... I find it easier to adapt that way. Most of the time I'm in the "Smoking is stupid" viewpoint, but once in a while I enjoy a casual smoke. I have moved beyond the view that only one viewpoint can be right (in this situation). THAT is the key to personal responsibility. Complete personal prohibition from something is alright individually. Perhaps something doesn't suit you. But if you do like something, just learn to incorporate it into your life instead of denying it (deluding yourself, if you will).

It seems more rational, or perhaps more responsible, to say "I like smoking. I don't like what it does to me if I do it a lot. I will find the balance between the two." I fundamentally disagree that this is not possible. And despite my last post, I've gotten right back into this debate again.... smile oh well.

The method is a powerful one going back for a very long time. I recognize the method, and as such feel I see through it to the inherrent delusionary tactics enacted to make it work. And it does work. If thats all you care about, its a great method. But because I would rather feel I have control of my life this method doesn't work for me. Also why I'm not into organized religion. I know you'll say "It is giving you control and freeing you from the (demonized) nicotine which is enslaving you" but I think THAT is simply another delusion trapping you to a different viewpoint. Perhaps a better viewpoint given your desire to not smoke at all, granted. But I still feel its just another delusion and gives you LESS power of your own actions than building the internal reasoning faculties, checks, and balances, that can be applied to other situations more fluidly. This method only provides you with a single new delusion to solve one problem. The METHOD is excellent and should be internalized and used on problems as another tool to strengthen yourself. But believing those self-created delusions is just as dangerous as believing the ones you unconciously make that trap you into such addictive / habitual cycles.

(* steps down from soapbox and walks back to silent contemplation *)


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Chronofracture333


Chronofracture333

Hobo Gaylord
Location: I am worldwide and lush

Total posts: 329
Posted:@ i8beefy2

ubblove & hug

Yep pretty much my own view. Down with the church of Allen Carr.


*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*

"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"

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i8beefy2
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

i8beefy2

addict
Location: Ohio, USA

Total posts: 674
Posted:Down with the church? Oh no my friend, not my meaning at all. It's a very respectable little belief structure with some very good points. For those it works for and who have no problems with the limitations for growth, it is perfectly respectable.

As I said, for a pragmatic point of view it is excellent. I'm very pragmatic so I recognize that. But I am also very conscious of the limitations involved in believing the structure created by such a point of view. I prefer the structureless and feel I'm better able to deal with a changing world in a fluid manner. Me and my Taoist philosophy of life and all that. smile As such, this has a pragmatic use, but not universally pragmatic (universally true), and thus I reject it as being the best answer to addictive behavior... rather it is a ladder (a method or tool) to cross over a seemingly insurmountable peak. Useful to employ later if some new peak comes up that you need it for, instead of throwing away the ladder simply because it got you over one small problem. smile


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Chronofracture333


Chronofracture333

Hobo Gaylord
Location: I am worldwide and lush

Total posts: 329
Posted:Fair enough. I should have seperated the statements, my admiration for your viewpoint should not be connected with my personal dislike of evangelical ex-smokers. Apologies for my clumsiness.redface



& more hug


*no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no moves there are no*

"Oooh, what a shiny new move!"

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ickleMatt


ickleMatt

enthusiast
Location: L.O.N.D.O.N.

Total posts: 242
Posted:What the hell are the British government up to? Revealed: how 10 joints could lead to 14 years for dealing

Can they not provide a consistent line on what kind of trouble you face if you are caught with a bit of puff? This is just stupid talk. 5 grams - intent to sell? Don't make me laugh.

I think they are just trying to provide as many mixed messages as possible so we don't know what to think and get scared and spend all of our time getting stoned at home.


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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:Well i suggest everyone move to brighton, the streets and parks always smell nice down there. It's been legal there for years....oh no wait....it's just no one cares. It's so blatant and i've never seen any hastle from the police.

I've not read this thread but since there is absolutely no reason to ilegalise weed in the first place i'm not sure what the question is.

Hemp is an increadible product, better than cotton for clothes, better than diesel for cars, that's why weed is ilegal. It's got nothing to do with the THC. Just a way to keep cotton and diesel selling well. Easiest way to do that was a smear campaign on 'getting high' with Hemps fun cousin.

And it's only in very recent history that this happend, hemp used to be the number one cash crop on the planet.

You can run cars on hemp oil (diesel engines were originally designed for hemp oil)
You can make plastic from it
You can make clothes, paper, rope
you can drink the oil, it's extremely good for you as is very rich in omega oils
you can eat the seeds
then there's all the medical data about thc and it's positive (and negative) effects.

It really is a wonderful crop and i'd love to start a hemp farm in nz smile

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I think it's ridculous that alcohol is legal, yet people can go to jail for smoking a plant!

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:Can we also do away with the restrictions on prescription drugs? In America, we have to get a doctor to approve most medications before we can take them. We can go drink ourselves silly in bars, but we have to go get a doctor's permission slip to take a pill that makes us a little happier without impairing our driving skills.

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:was that sarcasm patriarch?
I cant believe you seriously think that making prescription drugs freely available is a good idea? confused shrug


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, USA

Total posts: 607
Posted:Why should we allow pot and alchohol, but not viagra?

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:oh, when you said a "pill that makes us a little happier" I assumed you were talking about psychiatric medicines, not viagra.

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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Neon_Shaolin
GOLD Member since Jul 2005

Neon_Shaolin

hehe, 'Member' huhuh
Location: Behind you. With Jam

Total posts: 6120
Posted:Why would you need to be driving when on viagra? ubblol

"I used to want to change the world, now I just wanna leave the room with a little dignity..." - Lotus Weinstock

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:ubblol good point!

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: , United Kingdom

Total posts: 15414
Posted:Something to do to 'relieve' the monotany of driving long distances?

devil


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops, United Kingdo...

Total posts: 4525
Posted:surely thats dangerous though Jon? According to Patriarch917 "rollerblading kills".

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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_Aime_
SILVER Member since Jan 2004

_Aime_

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hastings, United Kingdom

Total posts: 4172
Posted:You could indicate right with a simple thrust of the hips biggrin

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GitasGuy


GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 2303
Posted:To answer your initial survey, i don't believe it needs to be legalise, just decriminalised. To many people are having their lives stained with conviction for something i believe is no worse than drinking!

 Written by: Mint Sauce


And for all those out there who say but it dose no harm. I ask you HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS there have been hundreds of medical tests and trials run on cannabis all coming to totally different conclusions some good some bad.




Marajuana itself is not dangerous. The hydroponics and chemicals added to it these days may have changed this a little. But it has been around for hundreds of years possibly thousands. And yet there has never been a reported death associated with smoking it.
You have to smoke something like 4 pounds of the stuff very quickly (which in itself is impossible) just to overdose.

As for inhaling smoke and that cant be good for you - Well your half right at the time its doing damaged, but as doctors will tell you when you give up smoking. Your body repairs itself, that include your lungs! within 12 months your body has no lasting effects.

I only this year gave up smoking cigarettes and marajuana after 10 years of heavy abuse. thankx


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:CNN on pot

 Written by:

Marijuana may stave off Alzheimer's
POSTED: 7:57 p.m. EDT, October 5, 2006

WASHINGTON, (Reuters) -- Good news for aging hippies: Smoking pot may stave off Alzheimer's disease.

New research shows that the active ingredient in marijuana may prevent the progression of the disease by preserving levels of an important neurotransmitter that allows the brain to function.

Researchers at the Scripps Research Institute in California found that marijuana's active ingredient, delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, or THC, can prevent the neurotransmitter acetylcholine from breaking down more effectively than commercially marketed drugs.

THC is also more effective at blocking clumps of protein that can inhibit memory and cognition in Alzheimer's patients, the researchers reported in the journal Molecular Pharmaceutics.

The researchers said their discovery could lead to more effective drug treatment for Alzheimer's, the leading cause of dementia among the elderly.

Those afflicted with Alzheimer's suffer from memory loss, impaired decision-making, and diminished language and movement skills. The ultimate cause of the disease is unknown, though it is believed to be hereditary.

Marijuana is used to relieve glaucoma and can help reduce side effects from cancer and AIDS treatment.

Possessing marijuana for recreational use is illegal in many parts of the world, including the United States, though some states allow possession for medical purposes.



I actually have forgotten why I am posting this here... anyone got a spliff to refresh my memory? wink


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Bek66


Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place

Total posts: 4728
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917



Why should we allow pot and alchohol, but not viagra?





Because, if abused it can make you permanently impotent!!!

Alcohol as well!!!



Pot is just too promising in it's positive aspects to NOT at least be open to the idea of legalization...



It kept me from wasting away to nothing while I was recovering from major surgery. Staved off depression and made me turn inward enough to where when I had recoverd, I was a much stronger person...Inside and out!!!

EDITED_BY: fyrespirit (1160242019)


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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