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TheCleaner


member
Location: phoenix, Az, USA

Total posts: 23
Posted:I have an hour drive to and from work, affording me two hours too many of thinking time. Every once in a great while a feeling of impending doom starts to shape the path of those thoughts. An incomprehensible series of events could lead to my instant demise. So I ask myself (no I don't say self), "have I lived my life well?" This rather unoriginal question cascades into many more. Not taking you on the scenic route of those thoughts brings us to the question at hand. Do you feel that the world as a whole is getting better or worse? To general of a question you say? Add up everything.EVERYTHING. Leaving theology at the door, do you feel that we, earth/world/mankind/humanity, are headed in the right direction? Are we, collectively, reaching for the "Good" or "Bad". Granted, ideas of Good and Bad greatly differ from one to the next. Think beyond your little corner of the grand picture. I think you see what I mean. The diversity that exist within this subculture of individuals from around the world, will give a better/more accurate answer. Than would asking those that I associate with on a daily basis. Thanks to all for, if nothing else, listening and thinking about it.

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Thistle


Thistle

old hand
Location: Nottingham UK

Total posts: 950
Posted:I think generally as a collective people are getting worse and the state of things is diabolical.For example: The global spread of capitalism. Why does everything have to come down to money? Its the most important thing in modern society as a whole. Like when there's a disaster or something the news. The readers talk briefly about the suffering and then spend ages talking about how much its all going to cost. In most circles you are what you earn and not judged for the kind of person you are. Everything has a price and i think that its fundamentally wrong to put a price on everything.Next, environmental Pollution:We all pollute, we are all responsible for the condition of our beautiful planet. But when i ask people what they think about it, they are so complacent. Saying things like " well I don't pollute as much as the big companies and mine is just a drop in the ocean" ?????? This attitude baffles me as we're all part of a bigger picture and everything we do has an equal and opposite reaction. I call this *ostrich syndrome*. I don't think we should go back to living in caves or anything that extreem, but please someone invent a non-polluting mode of transport as good as a car. Its time to wake up and acccept that its everyones problem. Environmental destruction:THE RAIN FORESTS. Rainforests are known as *sinks* in the respect that they absorb huge amounts of carbon dioxide ,and i mean HUGE, and process this into oxygen. Without them the earths atmosphere would change composition & we won't be able to breathe any more. Still every day an area the size of the british isles is felled (and for you guys from big continents this is a very,very big island of hundreds of square miles) not long for us now unless we change our ways.In conclusion, I believe we, as a civilisation, are doomed. But life will prevail and the Earth will heal herself after her near total destruction by a very virilant parasite known as the human race. That is unless we do things differently and we start right now, today.On a human level though I love people. I feel privilaged to be part of a group of sensitive caring individuals who are a far cry from the *Norm*.Onelove, Thistlefirepixie
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Are we nearly there yet?

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KT


member
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand

Total posts: 54
Posted:well said.....
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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:In my point of view on the world around us...We are exactly where we are because it is where we should be. Evolution and adaptability have allowed us as humans to develope as far as we have and do what we will. Earth and nature have existed long before we were a spark, things became extinct long before people came about (ex: dinosaurs)..it's the law of the land, things come and things go. If the forces of earth don't take care of us then we will do it for them. I am pagan, I believe in conservation and preservation for purely selfish reasons so m y son and his children can enjoy them as much as I do. I think overall that it is too late to undo the damage we have done but trying to undo it will save us and the plants animals as we know them, not the earth on the whole. It will still be there. The trend we are on now will only force everything to evolve and adapt (sharks, gators, etc...) or make way for the next thing. The earth will move on with or without us..while my preference is with...things don't look so good for the thousand year outlook there, but you never know. In the end, it isn't happening tomorrow which shallow is at may be, is what I am concerned with. My theory on it all....I am going to live forever..so far, so good!
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Posted:I think things are getting worse.I agree with what Thistle said, and if she haddnt, I would have
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However!I think there is hope. I believe most ppl are very closed minded, but eventually shit will get so fucked up, that they will have to accept that they are personally responsible for the fuckups on a local and global scale.I think it is very unfortunate, that many many forms of life which we share this world with will be made extinct before ppl wake up, but I think it is inevitable. On a cosmic scale, humanity will not make a difference, whether or not we wipe ourselves out (more than likely). There is still a lot of time for new forms of life to develop out of the toxic wastepile that we will leave behind when we have rendered this planet unlivable (even to ourselves).alternatively, ppl will wake up (hopefully soon) and there will be a paradigm shift IRT consumption, and things will start to get better.At this point, I'm living my life as best as I can, in the hope that others might see that it is possible to minimise the harm.Josh


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Posted:I think things are getting worse.I agree with what Thistle said, and if she haddnt, I would have
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However!I think there is hope. I believe most ppl are very closed minded, but eventually shit will get so fucked up, that they will have to accept that they are personally responsible for the fuckups on a local and global scale.I think it is very unfortunate, that many many forms of life which we share this world with will be made extinct before ppl wake up, but I think it is inevitable. On a cosmic scale, humanity will not make a difference, whether or not we wipe ourselves out (more than likely). There is still a lot of time for new forms of life to develop out of the toxic wastepile that we will leave behind when we have rendered this planet unlivable (even to ourselves).alternatively, ppl will wake up (hopefully soon) and there will be a paradigm shift IRT consumption, and things will start to get better.At this point, I'm living my life as best as I can, in the hope that others might see that it is possible to minimise the harm.Josh


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Dr.NoodleHead
BRONZE Member since Mar 2001

member
Location: The Giant Mushroom, United Kin...

Total posts: 170
Posted:Bit of a heavy one this and I'm pretty much with Thistle. Although there is a growing body of people who are environmentally aware, caring, spiritually sound, creative and unselfish, I feel the vast sea of humanity rarely looks further than its own navel (or in the West its bank balance). None of us are perfect and we all consume to a greater or lesser extent, but are you - as an individual - trying to reduce the environmental impact you have on this planet and enhance your social/spiritual impact - or are you just along for the ride and stuff anyone who's unlucky enough to come after us?Life is a truly awesome phenomenon that we may never understand fully on either a scientific or spiritual level. I'd love to have faith in the fact that the planet will "bounce back", but despite a life devoted to studying living systems on a micro and macroscopic scale, I don't believe anyone can know how this infinitely intricate system will behave after we've trashed it. Yes, life is supremely tenacious and has survived mass extinction events before but they have been entirely caused by natural processes (albeit rather catastrophic ones!). Our planet has never faced an onslaught by man before and I don't believe anyone can guarantee the survival of life in any form, although I truly hope that something beautiful will come from our rather botched attempts at planetary stewardship.Most importantly, I don't believe we have the moral right to cause mass extinctions and leave the air, land and seas swimming with waste. Remember, we haven't so much inherited the planet from our ancestors, we're just looking after it for our descendants.Hmmmm, that was a bit of a rant sorry. I just get a bit wound up that we in the "developed" nations are so egocentric that we're making the decision for the rest of the planet whether they like it or not. I also think we live in one of the most exquisitely beautiful places in the universe and it's rather sad that all we can think to do with it is vandalise the place."Life is like a beautiful melody, only the lyrics are messed up." I guess we're the lyrics.In hope Noods
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Fish are just like trees except they move and they're invisible

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adamrice


adamrice

poo-bah
Location: Austin TX USA

Total posts: 1015
Posted:Looking at the state of the world in general, there's a great deal to be pessimistic about, but there's also a great deal to be optimistic about.Not too long ago, many of us here probably assumed the world would end in nuclear armageddon. It could still happen, but the risk is much lower, I'd say. Environmental catastrophes are still possible (if they aren't already happening), but awareness of this as a problem is much more widespread than just 50 years ago. With human rights, again, there's one hell of a long way to go, but there has been a stunning amount of progress in the past 50 years. Think of what a trivial amount of time 50 years is in recorded history, and think of the profound changes we've seen.And I'm going to step in here and put in a good word for capitalism. Capitalism is about matching needs with demands as efficiently as possible. This is, ultimately, the most environmental approach--remember: efficiency equals lack of waste, and lack of waste equals lack of pollution. When you see capitalism leading to environmental destruction, that is not because capitalism is evil, but because for capitalism to work well, it demands a lot of information, and the future cost of environmental destruction is not properly reflected in current pricing (a price just being a piece of information). And if you think a centralized mandate could do a better job, you're wrong. Economies are too big to be regulated efficiently by diktat, even with the best of intentions (which intentions seldom are). They tried that under Communism. Capitalism will more or less work if you just leave it alone.In East Germany, farmers routinely fed their hogs bread instead of grain, because the state mandated that a loaf of bread should be cheaper than the grain that went into it, despite the fact that value (labor and materials) had been added. This is madness.Money is about subsituting a generally recognized placeholder for the increments of our labor. Otherwise everything would be on a barter system, which is extremely inefficient. Try getting along without capitalism or money, and everybody will be a lot poorer. Capitalism creates inequities--no argument--but which is better: a system where there are huge differences between wealthy and poor, but the poor are relatively well-off, or a sytem where just about everyone is crushingly poor?Is the world getting better or worse? I don't know. But I'm an optimist.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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Posted:worse, but for mostly theological reasons, so i wont get into it at the risk of a huge arguement. only a few things make me think we might have a hope. but i try not to think about this sort of a question in general, or watch the news, b/c it depresses me when i think about this sort of thing.(seriously) anyway, whatever.

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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:I watched Gandhi last night. It made me feel that people in a society are bad. People let greed lead them to awful things, greed for money yes, but mainly greed for power. Horrible acts are carried out in the name of 'religon', something evident in history (Hitlers persecution of Jews's) and today (the continuing troubles in Northern Ireland) which are just 2 examples of a multidute of the grief humans inflict on one another.I think as long as there are seperate churches or in fact organised religon instead of a collective simple belief, people will continue to distrust and hate people of other religons. As long as there is hatred towards people of different race, fighting will continue. As long as there is inequality between men and women, there will never be peace. Can anybody name a peaceful time in history? If you have seen the Matrix, you may recall where Agent Smith called humans a disease? We kill our fellow man and through greed and selfishness have destroyed this beautiful planet. There is good in everyone, but in society this 'good' is like searching for a needle in a haystack. At heart though, I am an optimist. According to the Celestine prophecy, the World is due to evolve from the scientific age. How much further can science and technology go? Perhaps this evolution that is predicted is not so far away.This is a complex topic and one that we could all debate for hours, but I think I shall quit on an optimistic note.Kat

Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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Posted:I'm not going to go into the debate about whether or not Communism or Capitalism is better, but what I will say is this;I think there is room for a hybrid contender.Historically speaking - more ppl have had a worse time when Dictated totally by economy, or by government. The REASON the lower class is 'relatively well-off' is because it has been reaping the benefits of regulated capitalism (regulated capitalism of course, is slowly eroding).the more Lasse Faire (fark - cant rememeber how to spell it) a capitalist economy becomes, the more poor people there are. The worse conditions they experience etc etc (and of course, the fewer, but much much richer ppl there are) This is also what happens historically speaking with totalitarian government.The more right your government gets...the worse off the working class (and the larger it gets). conversely for the left, to a point, after which the majority of ppl start getting cained again.Quite simply, I think there NEEDS to be government which watchdogs the corporations and makes them accountable. I think that multinationals should be disbanded, as there is no way in the current global climate to make them accountable.Of course this will never happen, because no government is strong enough to stand up to big business (in fact in this country - the government is too busy dropping their pants for big business to wake up and see the decline of the standard of living experienced by the majority of ppl).You wanted a Rant, and baby! You got one!
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(well actually you didnt, but you got one anyway
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)Josh


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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Hear, hear Josh!I love the theory of communism, but it's pants in practice. I also love the personal benefits of capitalism, if you work hard enough the streets are paved with gold.However I agree that the government should not adopt a complete laisser faire system as in this way the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. And the government do need to extract their heads that they have lodged so firmly up multi-nationals asses and think about the people they are meant to be representing.But I guess we all have to wait until election time until the politicians 'caring streak' surfaces.------------------"London is a city coming down from its trip and there's going to be a lot of refugees" - Danny,Withnail & I

Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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adrian


member
Location: sydney

Total posts: 58
Posted:well, i love this planet, i think for the most part it is a verry buitfull place, the only thing wrong with it is ppl. if it wasent for humanity this planet would be great, to take a line from lister from red dwarf "i think humens are a desease, all the other planets are floating around out there saying, dont go near earth , its got humens"ppl are killing this planet, they always have been.just my thinking on it.------------------ladies and gentelmen take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice...

ladies and gentelmen take my advice, pull down your pants and slide on the ice...

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Asaf


member
Location: Jaffa, Israel

Total posts: 10
Posted:I'm not gonna add IMHO after every statement, it should be obvious on such a subject. Therfore, In My Humble Opinion:The human race is a product of nature, i.e. part of evolution (if we take this theory for granted for a minute, otherwise the scenario is God Does Whatever SHe Wants and There's Nothing We Can Do About It). It is quite clear, though, that WoMan is not the *last* link in the chain of evolution (unless we're the Kevlar at the end of the poi, in which case... oh, well, Jerusalem is not far away, let Gog & Magog start the final fire show). We can either progress into this next link (by all means - from yoga to genetic engineering), or be replaced by it (i.e. destroy ourselves. "This species has amused itself to death!" as old Roger Waters put it).The advantage we have over the dinosours is that we have the choice, they didn't. Mother Nature will survive everything humans throw at her (there'll always be the cockroaches, nor to mention life on other planets in other galaxies that surely exist). Humans can adapt or disappear. At the moment it seems to me that 'we' are not doing very well.The best theory I know for sustainable development (and I don't know loads) is Timothy Leary's SMI2LE = Space Migration, Intelligence Increase, Life Extension. Problem is this theory is sci-fi today as it was 30 years ago, because it has to involve major shifts in the focal points of power, and the Powers That Be obviously don't want that to happen and are in a position to postpone progress (although not abort it altogether). PS - The argument about Communism and Capitalism seems (IMHO again and again) futile. Both systems are mirror images of each other, and both consist of the privilege of a select elite. In both USSR and US of A (and also in ancient Egypt and Rome and in african tribes, for that matter), it was always easier for the son of the leader to rise to the top than it was for the son of the chimney-cleaner. This is the primatic behaviour human race must de-condition in order to evolve to the next step.and yiddie yiddie quip, blah blah blah and Yadda Yadda Yadda, indeed.Asaf (on a particularly stoned night) ------------------Love Is The Law, Love Under Will (A.C.666)

Love Is The Law, Love Under Will (A.C.666)

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s-p-l-a-t


member
Location: Brisbane, Qld, Australia

Total posts: 383
Posted:Worse in a manner of speaking definitely. We're stuffing things up now more than ever. We're cutting, killing, raping and ravaging the land with chemicals, pesticides, oil etc etc etcBut everything is as it should be. I expect there to be a kind of climax sometime perhaps not too far away. With disastrous results. And I think things that we didn't even realise we were doing will continually pop up. Things are as they should be - for sure we're on a downward spiral, I think if we concentrate on respect and understanding for other human beings then we'll better be able to handle it as a whole species. Forgive me if I'm wrong - I have read the Celestine Prophecy (and follow-ups) but in my readings was led to believe it was a kind of though eye-opening, (definitely) fable? I.e. not to be taken as fact, but to be taken in in context?

The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you.- B.B.King

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CAINED-AND-UNABLE


member
Location: Manchester

Total posts: 214
Posted:I believe that the human race is slowely dying. It is unfortunate however that the capitalists etc are taking down innocents with them.Its a shame that nature is having to suffer.Its also a shame that there are not enough peope who protest openly to make a huge difference in the greater sceme of things.Which, gets me thinking of the meaning of life. Which i believe varies from preson to person.If your whole existence is base around commercialism, then so be it. I don't care, or get angry as long as it doesn't effect me irreversably. I meen, in this day and age its impossible to live in the city without buyingnstuff everyso often. but one should not become a slave to your possessions.Life should be about living for the moment, th emotion: Anyone seen 'fight club' ? <lol>
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Kat
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Kat

Pooh-Bah
Location: London, Wales (UK)

Total posts: 2211
Posted:Hi SplatGood point about Celestine prophecy.It is indeed a fable, but where did this fable come from. There are so many fables that criticize and threaten the church - have you seen Stigmata? Apparently there is a Book of St. Thomas that states that there should be no organized church.You will find that many of the existing reading refer to a church for the people, this church is meant to be a church of the mind, not a church of structures. The readings of Paul can be linked to St. Celestine prophecy with the talk of the 10 levels. St. Pauls theory is that people are reincanated and live there life again and agin until they reach a spritual level that will give them access to heaven. I have always said that life was our purgatory, which doesn't apparently exist anymore - I spent half of my childhood praying for all those souls in purgatory and dead people today get a ticket straight to heaven, what is that? Nostradamus predicted World Peace around 2020 or so, will we have it, I don't know,but hey we can only hope and do our best to make it happen.As the Celestine Prophecy says people are searching for something, there is only so far that science can take us before we start looking for meaning somewhere else.Kat ------------------"London is a city coming down from its trip and there's going to be a lot of refugees" - Danny,Withnail & I

Come faeries, take me out of this dull world, for I would ride with you upon the wind and dance upon the mountains like a flame.

- W B Yeats

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TheCleaner


member
Location: phoenix, Az, USA

Total posts: 23
Posted:Thank you.

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N8


member
Location: NY, USA

Total posts: 336
Posted:whoa, that's a lot of angst. And a lot of good points too. I waited to reply to this one cause I figured you would all say what i wanted to, but in with much better words. I was right.Props to Kat, the noodle, adamrice, and [josh]-couldn't have said it better if i tried.I think as far as the human spirit is concerned we are a much more developed race than before. For every benifit though you can find a downfall, i suppose that's just the balance of chi, for if there was no evil in the world, what would we use to judge that which is good, pure, and holy.A scary little point I pose to you now- Remember the roman empire?Our society is dangerously similar to there's - right before their empire collapsed...------------------Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

Care of other people's approval and you become their prisoner.Live fully, Rave wholly.Fluid are the movements of my strings...

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Thistle


Thistle

old hand
Location: Nottingham UK

Total posts: 950
Posted:Bump

Are we nearly there yet?

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Itsgottab


member
Location: NZ

Total posts: 244
Posted:i think the world/us is where it should be, we'll move though what ever is put before us, either the changing enviroment or us changing our enviroment, all can and will be overcome. as for the 'poor' in captialist countries being 'relativily well off' this is a misconception that those who would like to see a continuation of captialism. In 1495 it took the average peasant 15 weeks to aquire his families needs for the year, this 15 weeks has gradually increased to the point where today the average man/woman is collectivily in debt equal to 1 years work. while they may look 'well off' the turth is hidden in their bank accounts and other debts they have credit cards, store debts and the like. if you take standard of living away from a purely dollars and cents value and included things like leisure time, quailty of produce, and mental wellbeing you'll find that our status of 'well off' is quickly disappearing.lets not asume that the only alternative to captialism is communism. their can be voluntary collectives that work very well. sure they may not be making cars and spaceships but things that people really need.

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Burnt


member
Location: Sydney

Total posts: 13
Posted:I have two opinions on this topic, I think the human race is a big problem for this planet, the problem with us (IMHO) is we think we are special and all other living creatures are beneath us.The only thing special about us is our IQ. On the other hand, considering that in a few billion years nothing will survive on this planet due to the Sun's life cycle, the Human race (or whatever we evolve into) is the best chance for life from this planet to survive beyond Earth's expiration date. That is we are the best chance at the moment, there is every possibillity that intelligent beings may evolve from 'lower' life forms that exist today.

Play with fire and you might get Burnt.

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Firefairy


member
Location: UK

Total posts: 115
Posted:agreed - we r a destructive disease & that mother nature could well spit us off. however, I have to dissagree that there are few of us out there that know whats going on and want to do something about it. I think there r many of us, but that there is a general feeling of apathy and dispondancy. We all have to take personal responsibility for our part in it all but most people feel that we are too impotent to make a difference. they dont realise/believe in the power they have - (and we do, for eg. recently in the uk, the public jo used their economic power to boycot supermarkets that sold GM produce)saying that, look at how many groups are out there, trying to bring about change, and they are uniting through the invention of communications - look at us! (also see - warning new york political rant thread about an a People's UN)i too despair at the state of the world and what we humans do but i, on a whole, am optomistic that things are changing - things only usually get better after they get worse, after all!Its a beautiful place and most of us are beautiful people (those that are'nt are just disconnected, hurt or scared - the powerful live in utter fear).IMHO - we must not direct our hate at those in power because it gives them more power; disable them with the energy of our love and bring them into our light.take at look at www.positivenews.org.uk

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