Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > Is Poi Swinging, Juggling or Dancing?

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:I remembered that I used to think that Poi spinning was a a type of Juggling.

And that a very long time ago on HOP (4 years?) i had a "discussion" with someone (an aussi or a Yank) about this on a thread called something like "Is Poi Juggling or Dancing?".

They said that Poi was a type of dance. biggrin
I strongly expressed the view that poi was a type of juggling frown

Ahh what a young fool was I. Thats probably the second most wrongest thing I ever wrote on HOP. (and there have been lots of them) .Poi can be thought of as juggling but in doing so, So much of the art, almost all the things that I think are important about poi are neglected.

I would dig out the thread, but it wsa on HOP's second board which got accidently nuked a long time ago.

So, better late than never:

Yes mr/ms somebody from the other side of the world,
I agree, Poi is a kind of dancing,
and a kind of Swinging,
and a Kind of Manipulation,
But mostly a kind of Dance biggrin

(yes poi can also be juggled, See wibbling Matt! Most things can be juggled, but that aint what we is mostly doing)

Wobble
smile

biggrin

That'll put a cat amongst the works rolleyes


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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:What was the first most wrongest thing? *carefully places spanner amongst cats*

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Puresock
Puresock

addict
Location: Oxford, UK
Member Since: 22nd Jun 2004
Total posts: 406
Posted:I tend to say juggling instead of "object manipulation", because the average member of the public just wouldn't understand. So, in that definitiion, poi is, and has always been, juggling smile And so is CJ. And skipping. and all that jazz.



I have a horrible image in my head of a cat in works.


"Take that, math!"

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:this post will be entitle "maybe..."



maybe back then you was treating poi more like juggling objects cos your time was mainly taken up with learning and doing juggling - that's what your brain was in tune with at the time and that's how you swinging (especially as it was so related to club swinging for you back then).



maybe nowdays you think of poi more as a dance cos your spare time and learning priorities have very much swung towards dancing.



maybe they are both depending on what day it is and who you are at that time.



maybe your question is so subjective that there is no absolute answer, even for an individual.



for me, poi is still more like object manipulation:

you can dance with three balls as much as you can dance with poi - if you are a good juggler.

you can do tricks with poi that are as technically advanced as pretty much anything you can describe with juggling balls - if you are a good poi spinner.

plus, one can spin poi without moving - you might not like it but you can.

i don't think something that can be executed without any major movement can be labelled as 'mostly a dance'.



the last sticking point that prevents me labelling poi as dance is the fact that it is not connected to any particular type of music.

dance styles that demand the use of objects are pretty rare and it is almost unheard of if the objects do not add an acoustic element to the dance.



without the basic connection to music and no overall stylistic framework, when people ask me what poi spinning is, i'm very disinclined to tell them "its a type of dance".





cole. x



*smiles inanely while stroking a wildly flapping pigeon with a spanner*


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:I think the real question here is:

Can jugglers dance whilst juggling?

Because the few jugglers that i've seen dance whilst juggling were infinitely more enjoyable to watch than the ones who plant their feet in the floor and practice math.

But as for poi, yeah it's a dance, juggling isn't even really a separate thing imo, juggling is a form of dance, just usually a very technical, often emotionless dance, involving lots of throws and catches.

So wibbling could be considered juggling, but a form of juggling where dance is given far more importance, where a little emotion is needed.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:alternative question for those that think question one is too easy:



is poi spinning, object manipulation or a performance art?





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Jhinge
member
Location: my own little planet of ginger...
Member Since: 29th Apr 2005
Total posts: 110
Posted:poi is a performance art on the basis that is
a tradisional maroi dance performed at cermonys like the haka (i think thats the correct spelling) but i would also say that modern poi is a combination of both


i dont get paid to belive i get paid to destroy things

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Dance smile



(nil points for the originality of this post)





Ahem... anyways, can't spinning be both manipulation and art?



And what is this current craze to categorise?!

There are too many boxes being bandied about today.



(I was recently introduced as a flame thrower)



umm

rolleyes



biggrin



hug


Getting to the other side smile

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:ubblol ubblol ubblol

nuff said


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Blasphemous Girl
Blasphemous Girl

member
Location: Gloucestershire
Member Since: 11th Aug 2005
Total posts: 83
Posted:I think it's always gonna be hard to define poi spinning as any one thing! (good luck)

i think the way that someone spins and moves is personal and individual and they will always have their own style that comes though. also it seems like an ever changing idea, new moves, new concepts things that were previously thought impossible are now being done all the time - its always evolving.

its what the individual makes it
it's what ever you want it to be
and thats what makes it so beautiful

but hey i'm still new to this poi thing, just my opinion!! wink weavesmiley ubbrollsmile


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Firepoise

Ahem... anyways, can't spinning be both manipulation and art?



my point exactly exactly miss poise - for all purposes, its the same question biggrin

"ahem... anyways, can't spinning be both juggling and dance?" ubbangel

while we're on the question answering tip, here are some others i'd like cleared up:

is contact juggling dancing, meditation or is it simply juggling without throws?
is billiard ball manipulation contact juggling or magic?
is glowstringing a form of poi or a separate artform?
is modern poi mainly traditional poi with added bits or a completely separate discipline?
is pool just a rubbish version of snooker?
are massive attack dance or trip-hop (and wtf is trip-hop?!)?
is this question subjective?

tongue


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Is cole 'cruising for a bruising' - as my imaginary 8yr old brother would say?

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Yes, yes, Mr Coleman. I know you said it first.

That's cos you're great and much more intelligent and articulate than me

tongue tongue tongue


(lol, sorrys, one of those days)


Questions:

1. Meditation
2. Gimmick
3. Poi on drugs
4. The poi we do is like an unruly teenager - sticks with it's roots, but wants to do new, 'better' things, even at the risk of being disrespectful to it's elders. (umm biggrin)
5. No, pool is infinitely better
6. Smoking music
7. Yes.



hug2


Getting to the other side smile

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:noooooooo smile



like your brother, butter wouldn't melt in my mouth either...



ubbangel





cole. x



p.s. firepoise, you got 3 out 7 'right' wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:poi on drugs............. ubblol

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:Cole, your first post, It's got a lot about me.
Only its all upside down.
This dog wagged his tail, not the tail wagging the dog.
Your chronology is all wrong.
I realised that I was wrong in thinking of poi as juggling then went off to learn other dance styles.
The thought preceeded the action.

Quote Coleman:
>"the last sticking point that prevents me labelling poi as dance is the fact that it is not connected to any >particular type of music."
Just like Contemporary Dance. Doh.

What about making poi dance?
or for Contact Manipulation - the dance of the spheres?


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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:To answer - all is right.

"Poi is life smile"

:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:When I first saw poi, I never made the connection with juggling, in fact it wasn't until I started reading these boards that I even realized there was a connection. I considered it an art form unto it's own.

As I got more involved in it, I started thinking of it as an excuse for dance, sort of like saying I'm spinning these things, but it sure helps to move my body in a dance like fashion in an effort to aid continuity ( flow ,,if you will )

IMO, it all depends on your perspective, and your motivations for spinning in the first place. Poi can be meditation if you're spinning alone in your back garden, with or without music but it can also be dance if your up on stage in front of an audience.

If you watch Dragon7's video ,,Chrome,,or better yet showed it to someone who was unfamiliar with these arts, what do you think that person would say the subject was doing? Most likely his/her answer would be ....dancing. Do you think the answer would be the same if the poi were visible in that video? I do


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:fair enough dude *turns drew the right way up*



good point about contemporary dance, but that in turn opens up a whole can of squiggly things...



so i guess the interesting question is: what made you make the big change from what you were arguing before (poi is juggling) and decide that you were wrong (i.e. poi is actually dance) and that you needed to go learn to dance to improve your understanding of poi?



how does your dance-centric way of thinking apply to your attitude towards other disciplines you have studied - say, contact juggling?

i reckon that you now treat many areas of cj as dance now, which suggests to me that your main focus has pervaded into all of your physical studies (intentional or not, chicken or egg, you have changed your view of what can be done with these forms and what they are/mean to you).



contact juggling, poi and all other forms of object manipulation could quite easily be defined as a form of 'contact improvistation' (a dance category with a solid definition kiddies smile) but does that make us all dancers whether we mean to be or not?

thats getting a bit too postmodern for my liking...



holding with that observation and realising that modern poi does not have a cohesive lineage in the same terms as most forms of dance, 'poi dance' would most likely be defined by the dance bods as a sub-section of postmodern dance (one in which the dancer is holding poi).



but one can define absolutely any form of movement as 'postmodern dance' - including juggling, just like matt said.



poi is definitely a form of postmodern dance, but i don't think poi is just a dance, nor do i think it is 'mostly dance'.



since 'movement to music' is not the main focus for most/all poi spinners, i don't think i can consider poi spinners dancers by definition.



i know some good poi spinners who are dancers and i know good spinners that can't dance for toffee.

but they are all poi spinners.

there are advantages to considering poi as juggling and advantages to considering it as dance - i think the only danger excluding one way of looking at it for the other.





man i wish we had a dustbin with a twig-powered jet engine on top to look at while we're chatting about all this stuff... hug





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Jo
Jo

member
Location: Sheffield, England
Member Since: 13th Dec 2000
Total posts: 517
Posted:Both imo



I was inspired to learn poi through clubbing, and have entirely aimed for it to be a 'dance'



I went to a juggling convention to learn it though (and to practice), so I've always considered it to be a form of juggling too.



Jo.


Educate yourself in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Haha,

It's all spherculish init wink

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Written by: spherculist

I think the real question here is:

Can jugglers dance whilst juggling?

Because the few jugglers that i've seen dance whilst juggling were infinitely more enjoyable to watch than the ones who plant their feet in the floor and practice math.

m



Ooh I hope you get to see Kyle Mclean juggle sometime.
You'd Like it! ubbloco


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Oi cheers glass beerchug

I am from the school of thinking that poi is dancing. Tho i was never good at that. You know being in a small world keeps your insight small. After reading the forums for afew years and seeing how you guys spin and move has changed me alot.

It has opened my eyes to stuff i have never seen or would have thought about so i think thats cool smile I dont want to say what poi is anymore because its what ever you want it to be... but i know i like moving with poi ubbangel smile

Deepsoulsheep is here right now . I learn't more off him in 5min than anyone has shown me in 5 yrs. The guy is manic ubblol Makes me re-evaluate myself, my style and what i like. And made me realise poi is wayyyyy more than i ever concidered it could be smile So ill stay true to myself because poi is so vast you would never learn every movement there is...nor would you want to. wave


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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:"You know, art is the reason i get up in the morning, but my definition
ends there"
-Ani Di Franco

drew, thank you for shifting attention towards dance-performance ( ubbrollsmile) instead of purely techinical/math(juggle)!!
:hugs:


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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inpsydout
member
Location: kent/brum, uk
Member Since: 6th Oct 2004
Total posts: 57
Posted:i cant dance at all but i am convinced that there is a lot of uncharted territory in the world of poi when linking it in with forms of dance that already exist, which is almost motivating me to learn some sort of dance (almost!). However i think poi is object manipulation, dance is body manipulation and juggling is learning to manipulate gravity.

offtopic i know this is offtopic but me and my friend have been trying to track down a spinner called drew since last summer coz he was lush (utterly ridiculous might be a better way of putting it) who was at the liquid and LGP party, is this the same drew or must our quest continue????


i cdnoult blveiee taht i cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht i was rdanieg!

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BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:

Drew, I find it interesting that you like to make definitions and distinctions between these things! Why? taking a break to play with words instead of balls I guess..wink As long as youre having fun my dear...kiss



Cole, interested in what you have said about the relationship between music and dance...hug



Dancing with music was extremely frowned upon in my university studies of modern dance. eek In fact, we had to sort of sneak off to do it late at night, hidden in the drama departments empty studios...

( whilst the drama students had snuck off to pursue other illicit activities.ubbloco )



Dance was supposed to have an integrity that did not rely on music in any way, nor was defined by it. It was to stand independently, and if it did not, was not considered to be effective/skilled dance movement. The closest we ever got was really using music was in an equal collaboration with a musician, where both art forms worked side by side , neither " dominating" or "directing" the other.



Useful, in that you find lots of unexpected ways of moving, and emotional expression, that emerge from within you, rather than from within someone elses music. It pushes you to discover internal aspects and physical details of dance that music might actually obscure. Silent dance can be an effective test to see if what you want to express with your body is clear and well articulated enough to be interpretted by others without a soundtrack.



Yet moving to music, and being inspired by music, is often the easiest entry point for people to access the pure joy of dance. Obviously,for some people, Poi has introduced a different access point --one unreliant upon music, and would therefore be of significant interest to the intructors in that dance program...



* I guess they could have a problem with the reliance on spinning balls, who knows...*



Many people start with the movement, and bring the music in later.To me, music and movement are like passionate lovers,waiting to be joined and setting the house on fire when they are!

ubblove



With or without Poi...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: coleman
(and wtf is trip-hop?!)



Trip-Hop:

A term invented in 1995 in a Mixmag article about Tricky. Almost an English version of Hip-hop/Pop made up of Dub, Jazz and Breakbeat. These days, mostly used to describe English Hip-hop production of the mid-'90s.



Glass:

change the "or" in your question to "and/or" and the answer becomes a much simpler "yes"



smile


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:yes it it seems like a very geaky discussion about words and definitions, but I think it will go somewhere interesting...



Theres a lot of folk in this thread using the terms Manipulation and Juggling interchangeably.

I used to do that as well, but not any more, I dont think that they are the same thing.

I think that juggling is a type of manipulation, I think that juggling can be combined with many other types of manipulation, but they are not the same thing.



Heres some questions:



Is hoola hoop Juggling?

Are any of these martial arts weapons juggling?

- including rope dart and meteor http://gungfu.com/cart-htm/weapons_chinese_weapons_traditional.htm
br>
Is contact Staff a kind of juggling?

Is Yo-yo Juggling?

Is rolling a coin down your fingers juggling?

Is ball contact a kind of juggling - Many of the juggling crowd argued not.

Is Poi a kind of juggling - Many of the juggling crowd also think not, try asking on JugglingDB!!.



My answer to all of them is no.

They all include elements of manipulation, but they are not juggling.



Poi is swinging,

Poi is a type of manipulation,

and Poi is a type of dance.



I think of Manipulation as an umbrella term for:

Juggling

Swinging

Manipulation magical or pen-spinning or a lot of modern contact

Contact

Playing and doing things with things

Lots of stuff.



Pure manipulation is often about making stuff dance.

The manipulator is like a puppet master controlling their dancing puppets.



In light of that and as simian and others suggest above, is to say that the original question was wrong.



It should not be an either/or question.



If instead we ask these three:



Is poi a type of dance?

Is poi a type of manipulation?

Is poi a type of Juggling?



Im sure this thread would not be half so interesting:

_________________________________________________________

Stout: good post smile

Coleman: lots of good points although, if you can connect post modern dancing to poi in any way, Im impressed. So Im gonna ignore the PoMo point.



Andrea - I don't know if I'm more amused by the though that they made you dance without music Or of the image of you all being naughty and sneaking off to dance WITH music.



O/T Inpsydout: Was that a party in a woods 2 years ago? Was the Drew you saw wearing the colour orange in any way? Did he look like the guy in the video clip in my gallery?



Bender: oh little plastic castle, oh theres another one. Oh and another. There sure are a lot of plastic castles round here!

biggrin

EDITED_BY: Glss (1125577350)


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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Poi, dance, juggling , and dance juggling etcecetcetc and even gowsticking wave are just different forms of self-expression.

For me, its expression through dance. However, the common theme is learning to coordinate the body so you can express yourself fully.

juggle


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:hug2

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Richee
HOP librarian
Location: Prague
Member Since: 15th Jan 2002
Total posts: 1841
Posted:It's game with "ball" on a cord smile.

light,
:R


POI THEO(R)IST

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