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Forums > Social Discussion > Religion: A mental illness?

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Simian
ah, israel. Just another justification for my thesis that religious belief should be treated the same as any other mental illness. But that's another discussion entirely...



Well, this is another discussion entirely. smile

Thoughts?

I'm inclined to agree.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:in our account, or our view, where all points a valid, it does become meaningless to say that 'that a (individual) point of view is valid, because we have already said that ALL views are valid. it becomes meaningless only if you accept the larger mor epowerful statements, which inherently states what 'that thi spoint of view is valid'. its not a contradiction.



and please please please dont get valid confused with right and wrong. they are completely different. in your own words, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ MY POSTS MORE CAREFULLY.



i do also have a belief of what is right and wrong, this is subjective, whicih is why people behave in a manner i consider wrong. even thoough i might think their views are valid, if i feel i should intervene you can be damn sure i will. that doesnt make me a hypocrite because as we have stated tiem and time again, valid does not equal right or good.



its 4 in the morn here, so i hope im still making sense. also, quiet, your quoting me from page 5 not page 4. i also gave a breif defintion of 'valid' on that page too, if you wont to take the time to read that Jeff(fake).


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Icer
in your own words, PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ MY POSTS MORE CAREFULLY.


I never used those words. But then apparently reality is subjective. biggrin

I wasn't getting at either of you two, just stone, who was accusing me of being some kind of fascist or something.

As for the use of the word 'valid' it looks like people are just useing it as some kind of vague cover-all term for any opinion which doesn't cause you to get struck down by the gods of logic. By that rather iname definition then everything is 'valid' since the word doesn't really mean anything at all. Why the devil then have people been writting discourses on it then? confused When I was using the word I was using the some wacky thing called the standard definition.

From Princeton wink
"well grounded in logic or truth"

Since many of these opinions were most certainly not well founded in logic or 'truth' (please let's not go there rolleyes) I didn't consider them valid.

Every thing clear now? And for the record I wasn't losing it, I'm just passionate. ubbrollsmile


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:How about this...(may get it wrong coz rushing)

All points of vieware valid (invalid exists only as argument but does exist in "potentia")

points of view can be:

right or wrong (depending on knowledge)

But cannot necessarily be:

Good or Bad (as they are subject to moral perspective and can vary between people) unless they can be considered good AND bad at the same time.

IS religion a mental illness....I don't know but this discussion is definately turning into one....


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Mynci
All points of view are valid (invalid exists only as argument but does exist in "potentia")

Depends very much on how valid is defined. See my post above.
Written by: Mynci
points of view can be right or wrong (depending on knowledge)


Very probably.
Written by: Mynci
points of view can be Good or Bad (as they are subject to moral perspective and can vary between people) unless they can be considered good AND bad at the same time.


Probably true, but there is some philosphical possiblity that morality is indeed objective. That may depend on the existance of God.
Written by: Mynci

IS religion a mental illness....I don't know but this discussion is definately turning into one....

True. ubblol Well done Mynci, we've just proven that objective truth exists.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:the definition i put up on pg5 was...
'valid', means not that something is right or correct, but that who ever holds a view on anything has reasons for that view. those reasons are real and cogent for that person.
logic and truth are relative, sorry to bring 'relative' back into it, but it is.
for example, the Kaluli people believe in magic, if a pig is lost, they hold a seance, a witch doctor tells them where to find the pig, they find the pig. they then logically believe the witch doctor was right, reinforcing their belief in magic. their logic and truth is different to ours.

i also wasnt quoting you jeff, i was quoting quiet.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Written by: Icer

the definition i put up on pg5 was...
'valid', means not that something is right or correct, but that who ever holds a view on anything has reasons for that view. those reasons are real and cogent for that person.

Ah! You've been using an incorrect definition. No wonder this cursed thread has gone on so long. By the standard definition the view are invalid, but by your definition they are and I agree. Not a difference of opinion, just understanding. (it's called a dictionary, google can even do it for you. With discussions of this nature semantics is the real killer. Not getting at you, just a plea for a common standard of comminication)

Written by: Icer
i also wasnt quoting you jeff, i was quoting quiet.

My mistake.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Groovy_Dream
Groovy_Dream

addict

Member Since: 26th May 2005
Total posts: 449
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)


Written by: Stone
Mr Jeff (Fake), now thats just your opinion, and hey you seem prepared to start world war III over it. Like my opinion is better than your opinion.



In my opinion, my opinion is better than your opinion. I stand by my opinions and when I think it is justified I do impose them on other. I'm quite, quite contend to be considered intolerant of bullies, theives, murders, scam artists, war-mongers etc. If this is arrogance then I sure as hell don't want to be humble. Are you seriously suggesting that I hide away when terrible things happen like a snivelling coward simply because to do otherwise would be to 'arrogantly impose my views on others'. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your opinions (which are just that, your opinions, not universal facts like you seem to believe, in contradiction to your own beliefs). But if that is what you are suggesting then quite frankly you disgust me. No jokes, no quips, no saucy wink.





It's precisely your self-righteous attitude that causes the negativity ending in 'bullies, theives, murders, scam artists, war-mongers' in the first place. Your post only reinforces Stone's statement.

If everyone was already at peace, noone would need to 'impose their beliefs' on them. Problems need to be fixed at their roots, not their symptoms.



I think it's ironic that a belief in absolute morality seems to cause more arrogence, agression and violence, but thats how it is.



Written by: jeff(fake)


this cursed thread





you see my point?



Now, i'm expecting an unreasonably angy, or 'passionate' as you say, reply to this involving descriptions of how much i 'disgust' you, to which i'm not going to reply because this is a discussion not a flaming war.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)


In my opinion, my opinion is better than your opinion. I stand by my opinions and when I think it is justified I do impose them on other. I'm quite, quite contend to be considered intolerant of bullies, theives, murders, scam artists, war-mongers etc. If this is arrogance then I sure as hell don't want to be humble.



You've put that very well smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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dromepixie
dromepixie

veteran
Location: Florida
Member Since: 20th May 2002
Total posts: 1463
Posted:Um I'm new to this thread and I just wanted to imput my two cents... Maybe some people will stop being wierd and downing each other and detach themselves from the harmless discussions here...

Ah well we can hope no??


I tend to believe that religion can be a beautiful thing if used appropriately. Now the extreme dependence on religion as a way of life shows me two things

either these people are stupid

or they have nothing better to do with their time


so in terms of mental illness I must say I have met a few bible bashers in my time who have some serious problems. BUT usually the problems were there before religion made them worse...

Religion is like a walking stick, take it away and watch them all fall to the ground not knowing how to walk... At least some religious people are kool. I could think of other practices that are much more dangerous like nuclear war... Oh wait does that have some origin on religious war... wait i wonder how many countries are run by bible bashers?

hmmm maybe it is a mental illness....

thanks doc this is food for thought!!!
drome


JUGGLEwithyourmind!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Are you serious Dave?


eek


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Serious about what?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi Dave, your comments on my opinion is better than your opinion


Hi mr jeff, sorry your opinion is not any more important than anyone elses. Not mine or Daves or anyonesI think you are confusing the importance of the issues (eg murder) with the importance of YOUR opinion. So without the importance of the issue, how important is your opinion?


CU wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:the definition wasnt wrong. i explained that logic and truth are relative. this is a whole other subject so im not going to get into it, if you dont understadn how logic and truth can be relative do some reading.

It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)


In my opinion, my opinion is better than your opinion. I stand by my opinions and when I think it is justified I do impose them on other. I'm quite, quite contend to be considered intolerant of bullies, theives, murders, scam artists, war-mongers etc. If this is arrogance then I sure as hell don't want to be humble.



I think I've spotted a possible source of linguistic confusion.

I believe in the quote above Jeff was maintaining that, on a particular issue, he considered his opinion to be superior to the opinions of those taking a contrary stance.

I suspect that some here are taking it as him claiming that, for some reason, his opinion as a whole is superior.

Those are two very different things- the former is simply, and IMO, quite rightly, pointing out that if one holds an educated opinion on a given issue, then naturally you consider it superior to the opinion of one who holds the opposite opinion. This is what I was commending, because I think it true and well said.

The second says that any opinion you may have, regardless of its basis in fact or logic, is automatically superior to anyone elses, purely in virtue of the fact that it is your opinion. This borders on megalomania- I do not believe this was what Jeff was saying, and I do not agree with it.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:quote icer: 'i explained that logic and truth are relative. this is a whole other subject so im not going to get into it, if you dont understadn how logic and truth can be relative do some reading.'

uh-huh. if you think logic is relative, i suggest *you* do some reading. starting with susan haack's 'philosophy of logics', or davidson's 'inquiries into truth & interpretation'.

or maybe you could give me your book recommendations? in the two philosophy degrees i've done so far I haven't encountered much in the way of argument for the view that 'logic [or 'truth'] is relative'. this is probably because that kind of claim is, as it stands, meaningless. relative to what? language? yes, the truth of an utterance is relative to the language in which it is uttered, but that's trivial. relative to your point of view? in some cases, yes, but not many. 2 + 2 = 4 regardless of what mountaintop you're sitting on.


ture na sig

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Hardy
Hardy

newbie
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Oct 2004
Total posts: 13
Posted:Written by: Aryth

shall we use suicide bombers as an example. They have very strong Muslim beliefs and feel that they are right, they are told by people of higher standing in their religion to go be a bomber so they do.




I wouldnt say that it's nessecarily a religious influence it can be but a lot of it is just because western society has destroyed the middle east more than it already was.


Even my multiple personalities hate me!
BLEEEAAAGGHHH!

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Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:have you ever heard of relative logic and non-relative logic?
truth and relative logic is dependant on your culture, your way of seeing the world. non-relative logic can be reduced to maths.

'performance and the cultural construction of reality' by edward Schieffelin might be a good place for you to start. alot of work by talal asad would be good too, not so much his work religion as his work on relative reality. i wont give you the exact referecnes as i cant be bothered finding them and i dont think you will read them anyway.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:My heads starting to hurt.... I agree with dave and jeff when they say a person is allowed the belief that their opinions are "better" than anothers... If we didn't think that way there would be no extelligent growth... (extelligence = shared intelligence / knowledge between people the world over) if we all heard another opinion and belived it was better than ours, society would stagnate or regress. look at the renaissance (sp?) wars all over the place, huge differences in opinion yet some fantastic ideas came out.
Also wars (generally started by some kind of difference of opinion seem to create huge leaps in technology and progression as the drive to better oneself / side is compressed into a shorter time frame. (did that make sense had NO sleep last night please point out my f*ck ups and I will try to express my thoughts better...I'm not very eloquent) wink


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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strugz
strugz

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Southampton - Possibly...
Member Since: 6th Mar 2002
Total posts: 3964
Posted:**wanders in**

*pats Mynci on back*


**wanders out**

smile


"...We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing......."

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks Dave, Ill take that as a no then. But did I miss something? I think dismissing all other opinions as blahblahbalahaha conveys a certain sense of superiority. Then, actually stating that In my opinion, my opinion is better than your opinion seems to confirm this.



I'm not trying to be smart, and I commend jeff for his honesty. I think it has raised a important point, in that we spend a lot of the time here argueing about who has the most important opinion, using the most emotive examples wink





Then, moving on a bit, when we play this game with religion we start wars.







juggle


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:'performance and the cultural construction of reality' by edward Schieffelin'

Schieffelin? rofl. That kind of gauche, postmodern idiocy might have a place on an English Literature course, but it doesn't have anything to do with logic. Um, you want:

'The Vacuity of Postmodernist Methodology', by Nicolas Shackel, in Metaphilosophy (spring 2005).

for a reasoned account of why Derrida, Lyotard, Foucault, et al. have no place in philosophy.


ture na sig

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Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:ill agree that postmodernists have taken things too far, but their original premise, that people are subjective stands true.
my point is that your relative logic and reasoning is influenced and structured by your own specific culture and up bringing. look at the terrorists around the world, in their view they actions are well reasoned and logic. they are not insane or stupid, that is what makes them so dangerous.
i will also agree that those ANTHROPOLOGISTS have no place in philosophy, accept where the two fields over lap, which thankfully isnt that much (im currently doing masters in Anth). they are anthropologists first and foremost, the issues they are dealing with are real issues. im not sure how much experience you have with dealing in cross cultural realities, but from the sound of it, you dont have much.
i think it would be better for everyone if we just stopped arguing, i really dont think we will ever agree. i dont think i will change your mind and you aint gonna change mine. if you wanna have one last parting shot, feel free. call me a muppet or something if you like, i really dont mind. ill still keep reading this thread and the evo thread, but really cant be bothered banging my head against the wall anymore.


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

Delete

quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:quote: 'im not sure how much experience you have with dealing in cross cultural realities, but from the sound of it, you dont have much.'

What makes you say that? And what, precisely, are 'cross-cultural realities'?

And 'people are subjective'?


ture na sig

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:quote: 'im not sure how much experience you have with dealing in cross cultural realities, but from the sound of it, you dont have much.'

What makes you say that? And what, precisely, are 'cross-cultural realities'? A lot of my friends studied Arch & Anthropology at Cambridge, but I never heard a single one of them use this phrase over the course of three years. Maybe I was missing something.

And 'people are subjective'? What on Earth does that mean?

You're confusing two claims:

1. The way people actually reason is influenced by culture/upbringing. This is true, but trivially so.

and

2. Logic / rationality is relative to one's culture. This is simply false.

And (1) does NOT entail (2). What you believe may be dependent on your upbringing, but that doesn't mean that the truth is dependent on your upbringing. Agreed?

Look: this isn't a matter of 'banging your head against the wall'. You should be able to conduct reasoned debate. Perhaps you could try responding to the criticism of your 'argument' in this post, rather than just repeating that 'people are subjective'.


ture na sig

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Icer
Icer

just a shadow of my former self...
Location: Christchurch
Member Since: 26th Apr 2005
Total posts: 205
Posted:cross cultural realites= the realities as percieved by people in different cultures.

1)the way people percieve reality is culturally dependant. yes?
people rationalise things based on how they percieve reality. yes?

2)i said RELATIVE logic (should have been relative-logic with a hyphen), i think your talking about non-relative logic, where 2+2=4 when you dismiss 2 above as simply false. relative logic is not mathmatical, its is more ethical, moral and experiential. cultures that dont know about astrophysics or astronomy logically believe the sun will come up tomor, because it has the day before and the day before, or for any number of other reasons their culture may have developed.

i think one of the problems may be that we have been talking about two different types of logic (relative and non-relative).
if you dont think relative-logic is 'logic', what would you call this kind of reasoning?


It took a while, but once their numbers dropped from 50 down to 8, the other dwarves started to suspect Hungry.

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: Icer
Cultures that don't know about astrophysics or astronomy logically believe the sun will come up tomor, because it has the day before and the day before, or for any number of other reasons their culture may have developed.





Yes, but they still using the same rational system of logic, inductive and deductive reasoning that we use to form our beliefs. That same system exists across all cultures, (though often used poorly by muddy thinkers).



There's no different cultural modes of reasoning of which i'm aware.

Religions will use those same forms of reasoning to attempt to justify themselves.



It's worth noting that you can get the wrong answers from flawless reasoning, if your premises are flawed.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Here's a good definition of logic as i mean it

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:When not burdened by their preconceptions people of all races and cultures agree on sciences findings when the evidence is brought to them. It's truely universal.

Take a tribes man who believes the world is flat for example. Fly him up to space and those 'cultural realities' won't mean much any more.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:what simian said

ture na sig

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: jeff(fake)

When not burdened by their preconceptions people of all races and cultures agree on sciences findings when the evidence is brought to them. It's truely universal.

Take a tribes man who believes the world is flat for example. Fly him up to space and those 'cultural realities' won't mean much any more.



Umm, first point: People often do not believe scientific evidence provided for them. Galileo and the Church etc etc.

Second Point: I'd love to see you try to explain to a tribesman *how* he got up into space. He'd be under the impression that it was magic. Explain all you want about gravity, liquid hydrogen rockets and electricity, but the odds are that he won't have a bloody clue what you're on about. Without some serious education, he won't be able to accept your explanations.

The point is, I think that if you took a tribal man up into space he'd either think he was hallucinating, or that you were working some kind of illusion on him.

And please note that I never entered the debate about "Validity". That was Icer biggrin ubblol


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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