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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:Ok I've done a search and maybe I'm just crap so here goes.

I heard on the radio last night that new research has "proved" (apparently) that men are more intelligent than women, the basis for this was mostly taken from kenesthetic feedback systems of the body and hand eye co-ordination levels.
Apperently men are more intelligent because we're better at darts and some such.
Some of the statistics quoted that:
Women still get more degrees than men...
Women get better exam results at school...
Women can muli-task (see my gallery for male proof)
Men on average did better in IQ tests
Men are generally the discoverers of new medicines and technology (I cede that women like marie curie etc discover things also, I'm just stating what I heard)

So what are peoples opinions?

Do people feel there is a definate gender difference in intellect?
With the school results could it be that women are more focused and apply themselves better than males?
Are IQ tests true; just a random standardisation probably created by a man therefore more suited to a male thought process or just a downright pointless way of measuring the un-measurable.

I don't want to open up a fight between men and women but would like to know what people think and how they would define the term "intelligence"
I personally think we are evenly matched but each gender leans towards a different "form" of intellegence but that is no means men are better at this ALL the time and women better at THAT.

So any thoughts?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:Some individuals are more intelligent than others, some are cleverer than other. Some folks have incredible skills for numeracy or literacy etc but can't cross a street without risking being run down, yet some folks are thick as two short planks but can build and tune an entire engine virtually from scratch without instruction or guide. I think the methods used and stats produced from the results to determine this should be more under question than the results themselves.


We all have skills......my neice is nearly 14 now and she read the Lord of the Rings in 4 days when she was 10, then she read it again because she didn't like it. She's incredible at English, I'd happily leave her to look after a 6 month old child alone but I wouldn't trust her on a bus by herself, she simply doesn't have the natural skills associated with "common sense" although is very intelligent.

I think those who produce stats like this are the cleverest people tho, they got a job being paid a fortune to annonymously generate mediocre statistics that have no impact on, or help to improve, anyones quality of life.

Pointless scientific studies, you gotta love em rolleyes


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Domino
UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK
Member Since: 26th May 2004
Total posts: 757
Posted:...Where's my bargepole?...

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:Dunc... what do you consider common sense.... it is another question i've always asked myself.. i used to be told I had none because i did things a different way, but found the way i used worked and was quicker for me....

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:Common sense....

"Sound judgement not based on specialized knowledge"

ie the ability to make best judgement in situations to which you are unacustomed

smile


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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:So would you class intelligence as "specialised knowledge" if that is so, IQ tests (Intelligence Quota??? not sure) would be a measure of how much you had learnt NOT a measure of your brains ability to cogitate through a given scenario or problem.

How would you classify logic in relation to common sense and intelligence?

I know when I try to learn a new move with my staff I KNOW I'm going to hit myself and bruise, other than basic risk assessment would common sense say "don't do it because you're going to get hurt"
So do spinners have NO common sense?
(boy... I love asking questions with vague answers)


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:A much higher percentage of "geniuses" (over a certain iq as defined in wherever I found that article) are male than are female.

A much higher percentage of people who are "mentally retarded" (again quote article) are male than are female.

Some people are trying to explain it by genes on the x-chromosome, of which women have 2 and men have one. If one x-chromosome gives you a disposition towards a very high iq, a female can still have another "normal" or "low" iq one to balance it out, wherease a male doesn't. Having 2 such chromosomes in a female is rare (having one is rare, so the combination is really really rare).

On the other hand, if an x-chromosome gives you a disposition towards retardation, a man doesn't have a 2nd one to balance it out, whereas a woman has a good chance of having a better 2nd one.

Hope I make sense smile


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
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Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:So "IQ" type genes are definetly X and Y? I don't suppose you have any sort of a link... those are busy X/Y genes tongue
It would make some kind of sense, as I know what you say about genius and retardation is true.

But I would bring up another point, as a fair number of ridiculously bright woman wind up getting handicapped by something or other, be it a physical impairment or not being given enough to learn when they are young, and so they never had the chance to develop their brain enough, and wind up being sometimes severly retarded compared to what they should be...

I don't know actual statistics unfortunatly, I just looked at some case studies with a psychiatrist who evaluates learning disorders... and talked to him a little about his expirience.

To the original question, I don't know, altho I'm interested in seeing what people have to say about common sense. I do know that woman are better at multi-tasking tho, which, guys, you should really keep in mind when you get to certain places with your girls... perhaps thats why she's not engaged ^_^


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Akashla
Akashla

member
Location: On the far left of sane
Member Since: 28th Jul 2005
Total posts: 72
Posted:I voted for neither.

Any research that claims to prove such a statement, one way or another, can immediately be dismissed as absolute nonsense, as the results are impossible to quantify as an individuals intelligence is difficult to measure.

I studied this in college as part of a paper on gender issues within computing. Scientific studies have showed marked differences between male and female intelligence, but in different areas.

There are currently two main schools of thought on the nature of intelligence. The first believe that all intelligence comes from one general factor, and the the other thinks that there is more than one general type of intelligence, or in other words, that there are different types of intelligences. But within this second school of thought, there are further discrepancies, basically between how many different types of intelligences there are. Each school of thought has noted psychologists and scholars supporting it, and both have strong arguments to support their claims.

The study that you mention, on "kinesthetic feedback systems of the body and hand eye co-ordination levels" would apply to spatial relations, which is an area at which the majority of men perform better than the majority of women. The results do tend to speak from thereselves.

If you agree with the multiple types of intelligence, then this is only one area under which it can be judged, and in this one area, men would be superior. However, there are other types of intelligence, so you would not be able to reach an accurate conclusion without putting both sexes through further tests.

If you tend toward one form of intelligence, then this test may proves that men are better at throwing darts, and parking cars, or reading maps, but not necessarily that they are more intelligent, as you have not amassed enough information to determine said result.

I would imagine, given the information in your post, that the report was written by people ahereing to the one theory, which means that they put a co-relation between reaction times and intelligence, the mysterious g-factor, rather than the many, which takes far more factors into account. Without defining intelligence conclusively, results themselves are inconclusive, and the report itself is phooey.

*wishes she could have used words like phooey in her official papers*


I am not a bitch.
I am THE bitch.
And Im Miss Bitch to you.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'd like to point out that I'm not even sure if super-superior intelligence is desirable. There are so many things associated with it that if I had to choose I'd go for smart but not a genius... like:
- social isolation in school because other kids hate you
- social isolation in school because you can't talk about anything you're interested in with the other kids
- being in a strange environment because you skip classes/go to college really early and can't take part in "normal" social activities because you're too young, or can't keep up with people in sports because they're much taller etc
- often genius relates to one or a few abilities whereas other abilities are under-developed
- genius/talent also often comes related to several mild to severe forms of autism which can make your life much harder

Not saying really really smart people can't have a cool and fun life, but all the parents that want their kids to develop into super-intelligent people by the age of 5 miss the point of their kids being kids I think smile

Kyri, here's a link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4355355.stm
br>
there's tons more if you google it though...

One more point:
Since all the studies point out that even though females may have a bit lower average iq but get along in life just as well, who cares??? As Akashla has said, there's different types of intelligence... take a racing car with a top speed a bit higher than another, but the other one has better grip and uses less fuel and is better at the steering. As long as they arrive at the same time, both drivers may envy the other car's advantages, but if they cross the line at the same time they've still both won smile

"Traditional" iq for tests can be trained. Even the spatial exercises that I hate (being a girl I guess I'm supposed to...) can be trained. Social skills, time management and the other "female" skills can be trained, too. So even though I partially support the genetic theory, there's enough environmental influence and possibilities to improve your own performance that the traditional iq may just not be that important.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:I'm glad people think as I do, in that there is no definate relation between sex (gender tongue) and intelligence (haveto keep checking I spelt thet right) and I'm wondering who's been voting for men...

What do people feel about school results / performances? I personally think that the male bravado has a place here; in that boys tend to think that studying is "swotty" and sports and goofing around more important. therefore they don't apply their intellect quite as hard.
I also feel that as girls in general mature / reach puberty quicker, tend to have a greater sense of what is truely important and are not so embarressed by academic success, leading to better performances.

I'm glad you 3 ladies joined in as this would have been a poor discussion if it was just a couple of guys chatting about the differences between male and female intellect


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Akashla
Akashla

member
Location: On the far left of sane
Member Since: 28th Jul 2005
Total posts: 72
Posted:Written by: Birgit

genius/talent also often comes related to several mild to severe forms of autism which can make your life much harder




Just to add to this point, seeings as it is a interesting and fairly relevant fact.

There is a theory which seems to be gathering general acceptance that autism is actually a case of extreme male brain. Baron-Cohen's research into autism is widely respected, so if any of you are interested you can have a look at one of his papers here.


I am not a bitch.
I am THE bitch.
And Im Miss Bitch to you.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:What about aspergers syndrome? this is very similar to autism but speech and "intelligence" develop normally. Any info on aspergers greatly appreciated.

Other than the fact that it's cause is unknown it is known that boys are 6 to 8 times more likely than girls to suffer the effects. This seems to point at a genetic link but nobody is 100% sure. Could his be a link between genetics and intelligence?


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:So all the people who were upset about the MMR (Measles, Mumps and either Rabies or Ruebella... can't remember) vaccine were actually protesting against the increase of their child's intelligence? Irony...

I don't know, people seem to put different values on "Maturity". I can say that I was mature in year 6 because I wasn't obsessed with who won the game of "tag". But I also wasn't mature because I didn't understand drinking or drugs.

Today, I think that people are maturing later. People aren't waking up to real life until their late 20's. This is true for males and females. It might just be England, but the obsession with drinking and "having a laugh" seems to go beyond student life. It's like, at the age of 14 you were smoking and drinking. Now it's 10 years later, what's changed?

On another note, I'd probably be in the camp of "Different types" of Intelligence, because that's how I am. I suck so badly at maths (by my standards), but I can read and understand a 1000 page novel in 1-2 days. Also I'm good at empathy, and knowing when other people are upset. However I can't cook.

Are these different types of Intelligence? Any study which proclaims it can quantify Intelligence I will take with a *fistful* of salt... biggrin


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:I'm doing quite well on "male" intelligence except for the spatial stuff, but I suck when it comes to fashion or being girly most of the time... I wouldn't go so far as to call cooking a type of intelligence, but basically the trend in the last 2 decades has been to make up LOTS of forms of intelligence, partly (imo) by people who wanted to justify themselves for not scoring too well on iq tests.

The whole intelligence thing is I think a bit overrated. I would go for "gets along well in life" or "makes him-/herself happy" instead smile That's the same category that common sense falls in, too smile One of my math teachers used to say "intelligence is not making no mistakes, it's learning from them and not repeating them" (though to be fair she used that analogy to point out why my class was stupid...)


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I don't think that either gender is more intelligent, per se, but I think that men and women do think differently.

Physics and chemistry are very male-dominated. On the other hand, Biology has a lot of women in it.

Neurology is very male-dominated, pediatrics is over 75% women these days.

I think there's a reason for this, but not because men or women are smarter, just that they might be good at different things.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:It's different by country though... for example, in Germany, biochemistry is a subject on its own and has lots of men in it. In the UK, it goes under (molecular) biology and has more women. So it can't be the way of doing research or what the actual subject is about, but more being scared of the word chemistry maybe?

Just out of interest, are there any viable statistics if homosexual men tend to go into "female" subjects and lesbians into "male" subjects?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I have no idea. But of about 7 men in my pediatrics program, two of us are gay.

And I have met only one straight male adolescent medicine specialist.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Akashla
Akashla

member
Location: On the far left of sane
Member Since: 28th Jul 2005
Total posts: 72
Posted:The nine types of intelligence as set down by Gardner (who has previously cited seven) are:

1. Naturalist Intelligence (Nature Smart)
2. Musical Intelligence (Musical Smart)
3. Logical-Mathematical Intelligence (Number/Reasoning Smart)
4. Existential Intelligence ("Philosophy Smart")
5. Interpersonal Intelligence (People Smart)
6. Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence (Body Smart)
7. Linguistic Intelligence (Word Smart)
8. Intra-personal Intelligence (Self Smart)
9. Spatial Intelligence (Picture Smart)

Spatial intelligence is one that males excel at where as females are more likely to score higher in No. 5 and No. 8.

In relation to Aspergers Syndrome/Disorder, it is quite often known as high-fuctioning Autism, but there are diagreements as to whether this is being diagnosed correctly.
Mynci, you have a talent for asking questions that dont have straight answers wink

As far as i remember, individuals with Asperger Syndrome do not exhibit a clinically significant delay in language ability or in cognitive development. Either one or both of these delays can be seen in people correctly diagnosed with autism.


I am not a bitch.
I am THE bitch.
And Im Miss Bitch to you.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:I think it's more peoples interests and tastes that lead them to those particular types of goals, I did biology at uni combined with a sports science degree, does that make me female / gay?

If an academic subject interests you, you are far more likely to pay attention and absorb information. yes interests may be more feminine or masculine but you will still have a cross over.

Ok. we seem to have decided it is probably impossible to quanitify intelligence due to it's diffuse nature. But, can we truely define it.
The school of thought at my school was the intellegent and the physical, I however feel that a lot of the "physical" students had a fantastic brain when it came to problem solving, decision making, and changing plans at an instant. the also had the good kinesthetic sense and could manouvre themselves or objects through space with great accuracy (the main point of the Study on the radio)


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:Bit late with that last post wink

if I don't ask questions Akashla....I don't get answers.. biggrin

I have a circular mind sometimes i don't want answers just to continue to search... meditate


A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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Akashla
Akashla

member
Location: On the far left of sane
Member Since: 28th Jul 2005
Total posts: 72
Posted:Questions are parasitic, they feed on thought, and spawn thousands of offspring to eat your brain all up...

I'll be offline for a few days, until i source my next net connection.
Talk to you then!


I am not a bitch.
I am THE bitch.
And Im Miss Bitch to you.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:It doesn't much matter if one group is smarter on average than the other at some things or anouther. The vast bulk of the variation is on an individual level. Some women I know are smarter than most men (eg. Birgit) and visa versa. Everyone is different and should be treated on a person by person basis rather than generalising. So even if it were true that men were smarter than women on average (which they may or may not be) it really shouldn't matter and certainly doesn't make smart women stupider.

Not sure if said what I was wanting to say properly here. Anyway whilst we're on the topic: I'm the smartest. cool (but not with words I must admit...)


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Mynci
Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free...
Member Since: 27th Apr 2005
Total posts: 8737
Posted:OK, Own up, no-ones gonna shout at you, 4 people have not voted "neither".
At the moment 3 have voted men are more intelligent and 1 has voted women. I would really like to hear why these people have decided which gender is smarter because they may actually be more intelligent than thse of us discussing the topic. Or they have no idea what we're talking about.
Socome on people explain your decision


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blu_valley
blu_valley

fluffy mess
Location: Brighton
Member Since: 8th Apr 2005
Total posts: 197
Posted:I voted neither earlier on today without posting afterwards(,sorry I got distracted.) Purely because as has been discussed I dont belive that your sex has anything to do with your intelligence. Im not going to delve into the science bit, its all been mentioned here already.

"I want to know if you can see beauty even when it's not pretty, every day,and if you can source your own life from its presence.." - Oriah Mountain Dreamer

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screech
screech

circling on the edge of madness
Location: away with the faeries
Member Since: 22nd Apr 2005
Total posts: 889
Posted:there's a good argument on either side based purely on IQ's which measure the ability to resolve logic. and solve problems

as a range men have the lowest and highest IQ's at the same time with women having a smaller IQ bracket

low high
IQ ]-----------------------------------------------------[
men ]----------------------------------------------[
women ]-----------------------------[

so women are overall more intelligent based on an average but the most intelligent people alive are men with steven hawking beeing the most intelligent man alive with only a theoretical IQ of over 200 since they can't be measured accurately over 200


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:One other issue is that although one may make generalizations about women being into this or that field and men being into this or that field, it's a useless argument ultimately because any given woman might become the world's next great physicist.

I submit that there are as many genius women as men, but that women a) have been historically denied the opportunity to show their genius so we hear about fewer of them and b) have often be hidden in the folds of great discoveries (a la Rosalyn Franklyin in the Watson-Crick DNA discovery).


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Written by:
- social isolation in school because you can't talk about anything you're interested in with the other kids
- being in a strange environment because you skip classes/go to college really early and can't take part in "normal" social activities because you're too young, or can't keep up with people in sports because they're much taller etc
- often genius relates to one or a few abilities whereas other abilities are under-developed
- genius/talent also often comes related to several mild to severe forms of autism which can make your life much harder



Yes, god, these things are true. One of my ex's can't understand people at all. (He graduated uni at 20, I don't know if anyone understands how weird that is over here).... he didn't go to high school either. He has a very very hard time socially, altho he's better than some "geeks" and he can't understand simple things in life, like managing bills or putting food away (thankfully he has a very sweet landlord when he first moved out of his house...).

But I also have another friend who's really affected by it, she's done a pretty normal course path just not had to work so hard, but she's easily bored in social situations, relates to things so differently, she learns things too quickly for standard teaching practices, and is generally very genius... but thus she's very bored in a lot of cases and doesn't have people to relate to or learn things with... she's tried getting around this by focusing memorization heavy things like chinese but its not really right for her.

And she learned recently that she was severly retarded in her learning as a child, that it still effects her a lot (she has ridiculously disparete IQ scores which are directly traceable and typhical of her problems). But I remember talking to her, and she said to me...

"If this is me, severly retarded, unable to learn as well ever as I might have, and a lot less genius than I could be... than yes, I'm sad. It would be awesome to just look at math problems and understand them perfectly, to know what I'm missing in my theories, to be able to figure out what it is everyone's missing when they try to make a science out of semantics. But at the same time I'm glad, because if this is me severly retarded, could I ever have related to other people if I was the way I would have been?"

...poigant words. I'm not sure what to think, but at least knowing this, being super smart really isn't all its cracked up to be, and I think with how we run education systems, is a downer, at leat in life and maybe even in learning! for these people....


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Lavatwilight
Lavatwilight

old hand
Location: Wellington somerset, UK
Member Since: 11th Aug 2004
Total posts: 834
Posted:Written by: screech

so women are overall more intelligent based on an average but the most intelligent people alive are men with steven hawking beeing the most intelligent man alive with only a theoretical IQ of over 200 since they can't be measured accurately over 200



IQ cant be accuratly mesured if your mental congition skills and verbal scores vairy by a certian amount (20 points i think)

makes sense to me, if you write like a 14 year old, but have the language and capacity of a 25 year old, then which bit is going to show through when you try and 1 tell some one, 2 write it down.
(personall big grrrrrrr) for dyslexia and stuff,
hey it does have its good sides as well, mentally imiging 4d objects is useful!

but to men or women, i think it depends compleatly on the person,
so i vote neither.
I know exceptionally smart men and women, and also exceptionally dumb ones as well smile


Drawings by chalk minds, strech between the stars

Kyle Mclean-
Contact without dance is like sex without wiggling.
A) it does feel as good
B) it does not look as good on film

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Sethis
Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University
Member Since: 16th May 2005
Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Birgit

- social isolation in school because other kids hate you
- social isolation in school because you can't talk about anything you're interested in with the other kids



Hey, you don't even need to be a genius for these things to affect you. My IQ was only 130 (rather than say, 150 which is needed for Mensa) when I discovered in primary school that I preferred reading books to talking to the other kids. I just used words that were too big for them (I had a reading age of 16+ in year 4) so they weren't comfortable talking to me. Of course, if they don't talk to you, you swiftly become alienated and alone. By the time I realised thatI should have been concealing my thoughts on the inside, I didn't belong. Took until Yr 9 for that to get sorted out. biggrin


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Ha, I personally never sorted that out (people still don't like my words sometimes tongue) But somewhere in my last three years of school people started respecting me for who I was... might not have been that they got over it so much as other things overpowered them, but all the same....

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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