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Analemma
Analemma

enthusiast
Location: West LA
Member Since: 22nd May 2003
Total posts: 384
Posted:
Simple, and quite common hug question among Poi players . . .

So can you do THIS move?


To learn - read. To know - write. To master - teach . . .

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Written by: matt
SO many poiple are missing out the essential basics these days imo, then they get all frustrated when they can't do the trickier stuff.



I do not agree. I think this is a very negative message.

I cannot do a perfect split time. I cannot do anything perfectly. But it's not necessary, let alone essential, to be able to spin well or do 'trickier' stuff.

Written by: matt
Whereas if your foundations are dodgy, and you are trying stuff that's a bit beyond you then you can find yourself in a situation where every new thing is hard.



This I agree with, but WHAT your foundations are is totally up to you. Mine are not perfect timing on every fundamental building block of poi 'moves'.

Just my thoughts smile


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mr squirrel
member

Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 37
Posted:Written by: fluffy napalm fairy

I cannot do a perfect split time. I cannot do anything perfectly. But it's not necessary, let alone essential, to be able to spin well or do 'trickier' stuff.



nope, as long as youre having fun, its all good. but then most people who spin want to spin 'well' (whatever they feel that means). they want to progress and learn new moves, and usually see other spinners pulling off stuff they want to learn.

something i feel you misinterpreted was the words 'essential basics', although im glad you did coz otherwise i wouldnt have dived into this thread. the word essential was used to describe the basics that people need (or lack). it wasnt used to say that it is essential to spin well or do tricky stuff. simply that without basics people will find it hard to progress, which you agree with.

IMO, probably 90 percent of spinners lack 'essential basics'. these arent moves, but principals which govern how you understand poi. noone highlights these principals, and noone writes anything meaningful about them (at least not that ive seen) because it takes one mighty long time. one group of princiapls relates to body motion - and not body motion relating to poi: just simply how we use our body to balance, generate force, and turn. another group relates to how we control the poi and use movement to generate momentum, looking at things like centers of spin. there are loads more, but you get the picture....

ultimately all the 'poi principals' are tied into movement, (be that of the body, or the poi). i would call these principals 'foundations'. you cannot invent foundations of movement, because they are principals which govern what is possible and what is not with poi. and that doesent matter if you know about them or not. they are always there behind your spinning. (the principals of motion behind antip spin have always been there and are infact mindblowingly simple when looked at within the framework created by the 'essential basics' noone learns).

when people start spinning they are so eager to learn moves that they dont focus on the essential principals that govern what can be done with poi because, quite simply, they dont know these principals exist. ...... ok, and because its a pain to understand them when you took up poi to have fun. i mean, the last thing you need is for someone to tell you, 'ok, now youve purchased these poi, we have 5 hours of classwork before we begin practical spinning, so take out your notebooks and a pen and copy down....'. no no no, that would be a nightmare.

but bear with me.....

i would argue that if you can incoroprate the basic principals consciously into your spinning, then learning poi and interpreting moves (perhaps what you meant by foundations?) becomes much easier. most people dont have this background. and as such they dont have the foundations that would allow them to learn at their own pace, discover moves themselves, and remove the fustration of spnding weeks or months trying to crack a move.

for instance; when you mentioned 'trickier' stuff, that's more or less everything you, as a spinner, havent learned yet. i remember when the reverse three beat weave hardly seemed possible. as basic principals govern everything, from generating any movement in the poi, to the most technical of the technical moves that anyone does, if you bear them in mind and aproach your problem considering the principals, things become much much easier.

this is not an argument in favour of perfection. some people are into that, and others arent. the reality though, is that people start spinning poi to have fun, and learn tricks. usually they would like their tricks to look good. now some people who enjoy perfecting moves will make the time and have the dedication to spend 2 hours at a stretch spinning one trick. (and ironically the poeple who might do this have been spinning for the longest anyway). i think id be hard pushed to do that. infact i can more or less assure you id be bored at the thought of it. (because i did it.... once)

if we accept that for the most part the mentality is geared to getting this trick down,and then the next, and moving on to the next one.... then we can probably also say that it would be better to give somone some essential underlying principals which will allow them

1. to understand poi a lot better from the outset
2. will ensure that they are able to get quickly to a point where they can take joy from achually spinning, rather than simply constantly learning moves
3. learn 'basic moves' which incoproarte principals they will have to find out sooner or later if they want to continue their development, rather than coming up against something difficult which also requires them to find out a load of stuff they had never considered before
4. preempt that nasty 'back to basics stage' where you go back and relearn everything youve done so far because you get to the siituation described above.

hopefully you wont see this as a negative message, beacuse it makes the same point as matts post, but is more elaborate. i think the importance of getting essential principals across is to make things easier and allow people to develpop in their own way. sadly for a high % this will be a very very long road, and one that is completely avoidable.


did i leave the iron on?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:I found it a positive and inspiring post smile If you do a search (or make the search function work remotely suitably) I am sure you will find countless posts from me over many years outlining the same principles.

I agree almost, if not totally, with everything you have said.

However, you are describing one outlook, and one way of progressing along one path, in one direction.

I don't have the time or brain power to elaborate fully at the moment but I will try in brief. I think this illustrates the point I was going to make:

Written by: mr squirrel
you cannot invent foundations of movement, because they are principals which govern what is possible and what is not with poi. and that doesent matter if you know about them or not. they are always there behind your spinning.



No it doesn't matter. The importance being attatched to learning and being aware of these principles may help to progress in the way you described, but is not even close to being essential to progressing in other ways.

If the sole reason you spin is to stretch your arms (this is a foolish and light-hearted example not to be taken as a serious point wink ) then there is nothing essential about understanding how to spin clean circles or good timing. If you spin to smile and have fun, then whatever makes you do this is what you need. If you spin ONLY tangles, then what use are circles? If you spin ONLY circles, then who needs to know about what could be called 'essential basic principles of tangling poi'.

It is a matter of perspective. And while I will happily admit/agree that in order to 'learn moves' and 'want to spin well' you need acceptance of fundamentals, what those fundamentals are and whether you know what you are doing or just doing it is a personal decision.

ps - 'trickier' was in reference to Matt's post.
pps - I have a very good grasp of 'basic principles' and am not being blind.
ppps - neither am I being deliberately difficult as it may seem! wink biggrin


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mr squirrel
member

Member Since: 15th Mar 2005
Total posts: 37
Posted:no fear about being difficult smile this is after all a place for discussion

first off,

Written by: fluffy napalm fairy

However, you are describing one outlook, and one way of progressing along one path, in one direction.



absolutely not. 'base' principals apply to something like the three beat weave as well as tangles. they can be applied to help people whose motivation is just to spin and have fun and smile, as well as someone who wants to learn the highly technical stuff. the post wasnt describing one path, it was saying that you can give someone tools that will be useful whatever path they choose. fundamentals are exactly that - fundamental, no matter what.

im also mildly perplexed at

Written by: fluffy napalm fairy
whether you know what you are doing or just doing it is a personal decision



surely you cant make a personal decision to just do something, if you dont know what that something is. it would be something subconcious wink sorry, thats probably being awkward and being picky about your choice of words..... as most people arent aware of the fundamentals im talking about, they cant reject them, but they can be ignorant of them. fine to reject them if youre aware of them, thats a personal choice, but most are oblivious of them.

i know 'trickier' was in reference to matts post, but in that post there wasnt really any specific reference to what might have been a tricker move (until the end). the point, i felt, was that in the natural progression of things not having basics makes it hard to progress to something more challenging that what youre doing now. and i thought you kinda lifted it out of context a bit.

Written by: fluffy napalm fairy
but is not even close to being essential to progressing in other ways



perhaps we have a different take on what 'progression' means, and thats where we might be arguing the same point, from different perspectives.... or something....

or perhaps we are talking about diffent principals, or we have different understanding of them. without saying what they are, i dont think we will get to the bottom of that, but if you have the time, id like to know what you consider 'basic principals', (feel free to direct me to a post...). i approach poi from a martial arts background, and you may have a perspective that would really add something to mine. too many perspectives in that paragraph...... ubbrollsmile
peace


did i leave the iron on?

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:I like perspectives smile

I don't know how to do perfect split time. I don't want to. That is my decision. Subconsciously my body understands 'timing' (as a basic principle of movement) without my mind needing to have explored it deliberately. That is the decision. I do not think it is essential to explore it. Hmm....... I'm going round in circles and still not being able to describe what I'm trying to.

If you asked me to teach about timing, I couldn't. I reckon Andy and Rev and Cole and Drew could. And probably yourself. I have never drilled it or learned it or looked at these 'essential basics' which would enable me to spin theoretically so much 'better'. I don't think you need to pay attention to them.

If you want to learn to salsa then it would help to learn to walk.
But you don't have to learn how you walk to start to salsa.
In fact, if you can't walk and try to salsa, you may have much more fun and gain just as much from it, even if you're not going to win any slasa competitions biggrin
If your aim is to win salsa competitions then your fundamentals are different from those needed to giggle in a heap on the floor.

Poi is the same.
And i still don't NEED split time to be even close to perfect.

Any better? smile


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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:That was split-time being perfect. Not me. ubbangel

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:Written by: ma'tina
btw, what is perfect? isn't even perfect relativ??? unless you look at it from a completely technical point of view: 180 constant distance.



180 constant distance between what?

What points on the poi are you taking as references?

Do the strings have to be straight, or are the end points of the poi the only important factor?

is there such a thing as absolute position in our physical universe?

i reckon: perfection is lame and boring and it doesn't even exist.

having said that, i reckon i can keep the ends of my staff in pretty good split time.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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ma'tina
ma'tina

multiplex
Location: somewhere...
Member Since: 20th Mar 2005
Total posts: 611
Posted:@ simian: first of all: wave ...hope you're fine, how are the trees in clapham, miss you all!

to your questions: 180 constant distance between the heads of your poi, the burning end, the end points.

the strings of your poi should be straight for sure, and talking about absolute position in our physical universe: it doesn't exist!meditate

apart from that: congrats on your perfect staff split time *giggle* biggrin

btw: just learned the hyperloop from my master, getting better and thx again for this waistwrap-hip-thing you showed me in spacey backyard, its working and flowing!


- Ho Sa -
kisses & peace & love to beautiful madges
*rever le temps le prendre*

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Sporky
Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 25th Jul 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:I managed to get the poi at 180 degrees after two weeks of spinning while walking home from friends houses etc. now my weaves are also at 180 and while I don't really see the point (I only did it to see if I could) I think it does look a lot better and also helps with other things (btb weaves and hyperloops to name two)

Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:fairy, your timing is sick and you know it smile
watch a video of yourself and spot the bits where you are out of time - i bet you can't find many!


so, andy's original post was "can you do this move?"
then he asked "Are you really sure? Try it."
nearly everyone's posts after this have been presuming to know what andy was trying to get at with these two closed (but also somehow temptingly open) questions.
i like this thread smile

i don't think i tried to push the fact that i like to spin my poi as close to a consistent 180 degrees apart as possible onto anyone else.
i never said it was 'essential' nor did i say that it helped define what 'perfect spinning' is to me.
and i certainly do not aim towards it because it makes the more advanced moves easier (although i would admit that i think being within 10 degrees or so of this target will make a massive difference to how and what moves you can spin).

when i spin fire and my poi are spinning split-time, it makes a beautiful, uniform beat that matches my internal rhythm and, as a result, it feels a million times better.
when that happens, it makes me very happy smile

what i'm trying to get at here is that this thread (at least from my angle) is not trying to push the fact that its very hard to keep 180deg separation between your poi, nor that you should necessarily spend hours learning to do it - you certainly shouldn't make it a priority.
rather (at least to me), that when you do do it, it feels great, and if you're interested in the inverse of that, it looks great too.

"The importance being attatched to learning and being aware of these principles may help to progress in the way you described, but is not even close to being essential to progressing in other ways." - fairy

this concept is not purporting to be the be all and end all of progression or fundamentals.
i think that you (fairy) have been spinning for a long time and have had these influences ('these influences' meaning the value of good timing and plane control) for most of that time, through the people you have spun with and from those you have learnt from.
there is no underlying principle to teach here, i (and i think andy too) am sayng that simply being aware of it is enough for it to make a difference.

what simian said is a great addition here - there is no perfect split-time but it doesn't mean we shouldn't aim towards it.
if you can get it without concentrating then that's great for you, but other people will have to remember that it is an underlying aim to make it work for them.

as you can probably tell, in my mind timing is very closely related to plane control and thus many of the comments that can be made about one have an equivalence with the other.
personally, i have to think about keeping my timing consistent in a lot of places (e.g. waistwrap positions or any 2bt based move) and i also have to with my planes, but noticing where my planes and timing are good and where they are not and conciously being aware when they are not helps to improve my spinning in a very basic way.

this thread is not saying "you must spin 180 degrees apart or you are rubbish at poi and will never progress".

to me it says this: "keeping consistent split-time is one of the things you can do with poi that can massively affect the aesthetics (internal and external) of your spinning. it is something that is sometimes taken for granted and even forgotten/ignored as you progress further into the technical possibilities of poi. but it is one of the few aspects of poi that can be applied at any level and as such, being aware of it when you are *not* doing it can be a very big help."

you don't *have* to aim to control your timing at all - nor your planes, or your footwork.
but if you ignore all three of these things, the moves you try to learn on these boards will a lot harder to learn and understand.
that's not to say that you won't accidentally stumble upon a completely different area of poi that doesn't rely on consistent plane, timing and body control - but i seriously doubt that area of poi exists.

for me, the fact that timing and plane control can be applied to just about every area of poi spinning sets those two areas apart as one of the most fundamental skills in poi - whether they are intentionally controlled or not, they still exist.

but i could be wrong... ubbrollsmile


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted:Written by: fluffy napalm fairy




If the sole reason you spin is to stretch your arms (this is a foolish and light-hearted example not to be taken as a serious point wink ) then there is nothing essential about understanding how to spin clean circles or good timing.





Well, that amuses me heaps cos that is almost exactly why I took up poi.. about 5 years ago, after an accident that meant staff was just too stressful on my damaged shoulder!



I tried and tried to do basic things most newbies learn in about a week... and felt really stoked when I could finally do some stuff, mucked around, had...FUN!! Also I wanted to to show off to my son who's kinda good at this stuff, when he came back from overseas...that I could learn things... clever mummy! clap hug



but frown redface frown



He'd been learning in London. So he just said. umm 'Your planes are crap" and with the best of lovely intentions tried to teach me all this stuff I couldn't do at all.



And all these really good jugglers and spinners came to stay...On one levelinspiring but on another, so dispiriting. I gave up for a few years. Too embarassed cos my planes were crap.



Then I took it up again just playing around with me feral Aussie mates and thought



STUFF planes, I just want to stretch my arms....and had lots of fun again and set my hair on fire countless time and behold, now a year later I suddenly WANT to do airwraps and pretty flowers and all that.. and I CARE about planes all of a sudden...



so, yep, back to 'basics'...



um.. am i rambling here?



Must be all that tequila i had in my birthday thread ubblol


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Newgabe - you make me giggle. And Dave smells so I wouldn't worry wink ubblol

Cole. I wasn't taking any meaning at all from Andy's post.

I initially replied to Matt. (about understanding and drilling 'basics')
Then Mr Squirrel. (about the importance of these 'basics')
If you read their posts again you will see (hopefully) that they ARE, in fact, saying that there are essential basics which, if you are aware of them, will improve your spinning.

The 'thread' is not saying anything. Lots of people are saying lots of things, and I've decided to focus on a specific aspect which I think is detrimental to to what I consider a healthy spinning outlook. Nobody needs agree with me smile

I haven't quoted in this post. I could. I will do if you need, to illustrate the parts that were making me think, but I think if you read the posts through you will find them yourself smile

I know my timing is good. I also know the reason. I have mentioned it already smile


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Sporky
Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 25th Jul 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:Its like every other basic technique. You -have- to practice it so that you can advance more smoothly. For instance, if you're wanting to learn a btb butterfly surely its better to be able to do a -normal- butterfly to the point where you can do it in your sleep before trying the btb version. I agree with Fluff, you don't need to be perfect but it sure as hell helps so as a result every time I practice I make myself go over the basics again and again and analyse exactly what I'm doing at any point in time and, most importantly, why. I think this makes it much easier to grasp the concepts behind much more complex moves later on.

Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I don't think it's worth splitting hairs discussing the existence of perfect split timing however I do thing it's a very important concept, especially for newbies. Like plane control, thinking about your timing will help a lot with the frustration of constantly hitting yourself, or tangling your poi.

As an experienced spinner, I still spend about five minutes a day making sure my split time, is indeed split time, yesterday it was high low turns, today it might be a weave, or butterfly pattern, or that always needing attention windmill.

I find good split timing doesn't make that much of a difference when I'm just standing there spinning a pattern but it makes a big difference when constantly turning. Not as big a difference as proper plane control, but big enough to be worth drilling so, hopefully, I can put more conscious thought into my big stumbling block,,,,footwork.

It's a great feeling when timing , planes, and footwork all come together but I'm not a natural at this kind of thing so thinking about them, and drilling them has been the only way I've been able to progress, and I'm not even on the Jedi path.


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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:One Forgotten Soul - you agree with me yet you have categorically stated the OPPOSITE of what I was getting at?

Hmmm.

" You -have- to practice so you can advance mroe smoothly? "
What do you have to practice.
To advance where?
What constitutes smoothly?

I am not interested in perfection. That's fine. Some peopleare, some aren't, that's their choice.

The simple point that I was making was yes, you do need firm foundations to build on them.
But the nature of the foundations are determined by what you want to build.
And it is not necessary to deconstruct and understand your foundations if you are getting all you need without doing this, as I am.


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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:hey fairy - i was making sure people didn't see this as a "is timing important?" argument which it kind of looked like to me for a while there.

sorry if my post reads as an almost direct reply to things you never really said (which i admit it does!) hug



i hope this doesn't come off as presumptuous - i don't mean to be - but i thought that earlier in the thread you were possibly taking for granted the fact that you *can* already 'do this move'.



there are a lot of people that don't consistently spin split-time and i don't think its because they're trying not to - they simply forget to conciously check out their timing every now and then.



i think they would benefit from somone tapping them on the shoulder and saying "if you get this stuff better, it'll affect everything else you do".

the stage gabe is at right now is a pretty good example hug



on re-reading your posts it seems you are saying "i don't know how i spin split-time consistently and i don't need to know", which is fine *if you can do it*.

if you can't do it, i think it makes sense to pay attention to it every now and then and see if it can get a little bit cleaner here and there.



seeing as i am talking to you directly now, my question to you fairy would be:



how do you know your timing is good in general if you never look out for it or think about it?

and are there ever any times when you notice it is 'off' slightly?



gabe - you don't have to take that kind of rudeness from your lad - his poi planes are crap too wink

but you raised a really important point - your timing and planes don't have to be good for you to have fun.

some of the most fun times i've had with poi involved neither.



however, if the 'overall fun of playing with poi' in any way includes learning new moves then being concious of your timing from as early on as possible can only be a good thing imo ubbrollsmile





cole. x



p.s. i'm not at all down with this 'jedi path' thing where it is assumed that there are people who strive for perfection every time they pick up poi.

in my experience, much like the original jedi, spinners like that don't exist.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:waveooooops
When you are dancing, should your poi fit the beat of the music?

grouphug


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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:No problem smile -

Lots of things..... if you're still here?

Firstly - I was not caliming to be able to 'do this move'. In fact, i think I said the opposite in my first post? *goes to check...* Dude i couldn't have said it more clearly! (" I cannot do perfect split time")

Next:

Written by: cole
on re-reading your posts it seems you are saying "i don't know how i spin split-time consistently and i don't need to know", which is fine *if you can do it*............



Previous point leaves this redundant. What I was actually saying was that I don't know IF I spin split time consistantly and I don't need to know. Or almost, that I'm pretty sure I can't and don't need to know how to.

My timing may be 'good' as you say but not in the way that this discussion is claiming is important. I couldn't spin split time at my sides for very long. I never have. And it wouldn't be clean. In fact I tried just now and failed. But that doesn't inhibit me. Neither does the fact that I haven't taken time to understand what split time is/does/how it works etc. Does this make any sense?

Onwards...........

Written by: cole
how do you know your timing is good in general if you never look out for it or think about it?
and are there ever any times when you notice it is 'off' slightly?



Erm this is almost an aside in the context of this discussion. I know my timing is good because people tell me. That's about as far as it goes. If people didn't tell me, my timing would still be the same, but i wouldn't know it was good. I would still be spinning the same way, for the same reasons. This has got a little personal though and maybe wandered from the point?

Lastly -

Written by: cole
but you raised a really important point - your timing and planes don't have to be good for you to have fun.
some of the most fun times i've had with poi involved neither.



Now - re-read all my previous posts with this in mind and see what you come up with? I think it was clearest in my last one......

Written by: fairy
The simple point that I was making was yes, you do need firm foundations to build on them.
BUT the nature of the foundations are determined by what you want to build.
And it is not necessary to deconstruct and understand your foundations if you are getting all you need without doing this, as I am.




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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:Edit: oops, this was intended for glass... sorrys fluff hug









Yes - unless you're off-beat, in which case, no



smile


Getting to the other side smile

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:Glass - erm.......... yes, no, sometimes, if you want, if the music wants, if your poi want to, and possibly/probably all of the above smile

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Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:I sure saw this as a timing is important thread but not at first. Originally I thought someone was having issues with split time and I had no idea who the first poster was, but I guess that's going to happen if you keep changing your identity.

After a while, it became apparent to me that it was a timing is important thread, an idea which I have to agree with.

I used to do quite a bit of teaching and I found timing, or lack thereof was a major source of frustration for many students. ( along with planes,,,,and spinning way too fast)

With some spinners, like Fluffy Napalm Fairy, timing has obvoiusly become second nature, whereas with others ( like me ) it's an issue that requires constant revisiting. I find if I let it slide, then I'm hitting myself a lot more often,,and I hate hitting myself, especially with burning wicks.

I've always assumed Jedi meant technical, or cutting edge, something like that. That it was a small group of highly proficient spinners ,,rather than a state of mind (striving for perfection) maybe there was even a snob factor I dunno, but I gave up reading those threads a long time ago in favour of swiping moves from videos. A lot more fun imo


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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:It is NOT an 'is timing important' thread.



Well, not to me smile



To me it is (if anything) an 'is awareness of timing the only way to progress' thread (not from what Andy posted - but from subsequent replies)



To which my answer is firmly 'no'.



smile

EDITED_BY: fluffy napalm fairy (1125478500)


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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Sporky
Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow
Member Since: 25th Jul 2005
Total posts: 663
Posted:"you agree with me yet you have categorically stated the OPPOSITE of what I was getting at?"

Not quite. I'm not interested in 'perfection' either but with some techniques I find that understanding where your hands should be helps a hell of a lot for certain things that I've had trouble with. I figured this out when trying to learn btb wall plane stuff, especially the turns (although I have to say Sending Signals helped a lot too). I simply drilled the butterfly into myself to the point where it doesn't matter where it is and what it is doing I can always move in and out of it without thinking about 'transitions'. Its alll down to having done the technique thousands of times over and over the years so that, whether you've done it deliberately or not, it has become ingrained in your subconscious and thus you automatically deconstruct it every time you attempt a new variant of said technique.

Most of the time I just throw the poi around and see what happens and by doing that I've learned far more than analysing the basics which I only use for things that have given me real trouble (btb wall plane butterflys to name one). So I'm saying that 'perfection' is not necessary but sometimes 'perfection' of the basics helps when you first start trying more complicated techniques. You just have to find a ballance that works for you.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Apologies for the multiquoting,

Written by: fluffy napalm fairy

Written by: matt
SO many poiple are missing out the essential basics these days imo, then they get all frustrated when they can't do the trickier stuff.



I do not agree. I think this is a very negative message.

I cannot do a perfect split time. I cannot do anything perfectly. But it's not necessary, let alone essential, to be able to spin well or do 'trickier' stuff.

Written by: matt
Whereas if your foundations are dodgy, and you are trying stuff that's a bit beyond you then you can find yourself in a situation where every new thing is hard.



This I agree with, but WHAT your foundations are is totally up to you. Mine are not perfect timing on every fundamental building block of poi 'moves'.

Just my thoughts smile



Fluffy, i totally agree with you.

I'm not saying that people ought to drill split time reels for days before trying a weave or anything like that.

All i was trying to say was something like this:

When i started poi there wasn't that much to it, 5 beat weave was advanced, 5 beat butterfly was unheard of and, hyperloops were a thing of legend.

So it meant that i really nailed a lot of reels, 3 beat weaves etc, and really experimented with what was possible.

So now when i try to do some crazy split time inverted butterfly nonsense it never feels like a giant leap because the foundations are solid.

I feel kinda sorry in a way for people learning now because there seems to be so much out there that i wouldn't even know where to start. I mean, i certainly wouldn't be exploring the intricacies of reel turns if i'd seen people doing tangles and throws. Hell no, i'd be trying to nail the trickier stuff.

But from what i've seen this can kinda, not limit you as such, but it can make learning stuff in the long term a bit of an uphill struggle.

But Fluffy i totally agree with you that the foundations you build are totally individual to yourself. I mean a complete beginner can start with throws and never learn a weave or butterfly in their whole life but wibble till the cows come home.

So i think you misunderstood me, or more precisely, i didn't make myself clear to you smile

It's funny that Andy started this thread because i was thinking of him when i read it. Andy really does drill the basics like nobody else i've ever seen. And the results are remarkable. His hybrid spinning (1 poi giant, 1 poi isolated) is so insanely complex to do, and yet it looks so easy. His timimg on that is unreal.

Garthy ontheotherhand, started doing insane hyperloops within about 6 months of starting poi and his results are equally amazing. It has taken me 5 years to do what Garthy did in 6 months. Mainly because i was kinda stuck in very rigid planes, which i had drilled, whereas for garthy breaking planes was totally natural because he hadn't spent 3 years nailing them straight.

Well if anyone has read this far you may have noticed i'm waffling on with no real point so i'll just say one last thing.

You can learn stuff in any order you like.
Sometimes try to Observe what you are doing and try to Understand what's happening.
Sometimes concentrate on the emotion of the moment.
Othertimes let your body move wherever it wants to go.
Try to find a balance between all of the above.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:bounce

not waffle - thanks for clarifying - we are indeed thinking along the same lines I believe smile


Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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TheWibbler
old hand
Location: New Zealand
Member Since: 11th Apr 2003
Total posts: 920
Posted:Good good,

I hadn't checked this thread in a while and it seems to have exploded after that little misunderstanding, sorry i didn't clear things up sooner.

m


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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fluffy napalm fairy
fluffy napalm fairy

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Brum / Dorset / Fairy Land
Member Since: 12th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3638
Posted:tis all good I have enjoyed the discussion - I'm ill at the mo and looking for distractions wink

Geologists do it in the dirt................ spank

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bluecat
bluecat

geek, level 1
Location: everywhere
Member Since: 15th Dec 2002
Total posts: 5300
Posted:ubblol
eek

i am, in some way reminded of 'teaching moves etc.'

i can spin split time.
quite badly.
i checked
wink


i can define it too wink

but i'm not going to post until andyhouse tells me why he wants me to haave checked.

biggrin


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: fluffy napalm fairy


...'is awareness of timing the only way to progress?'...



...my answer is firmly 'no'.





well i agree 100% with that.

sorry if you think i got a little too personal there - like i said, i didn't mean to be.



the point i was trying to illustrate was that your timing is good, therefore you don't see any benefit in working on spinning split-time.

fair enough - you already get damn close without having to think about it ever and that's great smile

but for the people who don't get people coming up to them and telling them 'your timing is good' or when they watch themselves on a video and notice that it is not good, this exercise can help their spinning a lot.



Written by: fairy
[i cannot spin perfect split-time] but that doesn't inhibit me. Neither does the fact that I haven't taken time to understand what split time is/does/how it works etc. Does this make any sense?





sense - kinda, but not really.

i have never taken the time to understand what split time is/does/how it works either.

there's nothing to it - if you know what 'split-time' means, you already understand all there is to know!

deconstructing split-time spinning would be a pointless exercise in my opinion as there is nothing to deconstruct:

"split-time - spin your poi so that they remain on the opposite sides of a circle." done.





to sum up (going back to the first quote), getting clean timing is certainly not the *only* way to progress - has anyone said that here...?

but if you are unaware of your timing, it does no harm to check it every once in a while.



i think if you notice that your timing is bad in general or even just in certain areas, cleaning it up is a very positive way of improving your poi spinning.



if you don't have to think about it and its good in most places all by itself, you are a very lucky fairy smile



i like this quote lotsnlots - its like the teaching moves thread concentrated into 5 lines biggrin:



"you can learn stuff in any order you like.

sometimes try to observe what you are doing and try to understand what's happening.

sometimes concentrate on the emotion of the moment.

othertimes let your body move wherever it wants to go.

try to find a balance between all of the above."

- matt





cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Glåss
Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 8th Nov 2001
Total posts: 2523
Posted:If ya want to be a great musician, you got to practice your scales.
biggrin


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