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Forums > Social Discussion > US - SWAT excessive force in shutting down rave

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Party in Utah, US ends with helicopters and SWAT in full tactical gear sending partygoers fleeing-



Saturday night, August 20th, 2005-



Video of SWAT roughing up 'ravers'- Same video, different mirrors-

http://homepage.mac.com/apexgrin/FileSharing2.html
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http://djmuteyproductions.com/fascism.mov
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http://www.angrymobclan.com/facism.mov
br>
http://fatbaron.com/videos.html
*Torrent Files here*

http://www.utrave.org/media/fascism.mov
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http://www.utrave.org/media/fascism.wmv
br>
http://www.herbix.org/facism.wmv
br>


www.utrave.org



as posted by Knick/Evol Intent

"Last night, I was booked to play an event about an hour outside of Salt Lake City, Utah. The hype behind this show was huge, they presold 700 tickets and they expected up to 3,000 people total. The promoters did an amazing job with the show.. they even made slipmats with the flyers on them to promote in local shops.



So, we got to the show around 11:15 or so and it was really cool. It was all outdoors, in a valley surrounded by huge mountains. They had an amazing light show flashing on to a mountain behind the site, the sound was booming, the crowd was about 1500 people thick and everything just seemed too good to be true really. Well...



At about 11:30 or so, I was standing behind the stage talking with someone when I noticed a helicopter pulling over one of the mountain tops. I jokingly said "Oh look, here comes big brother" to the person I was with. I wasn't far off.



The helicopter dipped lower and lower and started shining its lights on the crowd. I was kind of in awe and just sat and watched this thing circle us for a minute. As I looked back towards the crowd I saw a guy dressed in camoflauge walking by, toting an assault rifle. At this point, everyone was fully aware of what was going on . A few "troops" rushed the stage and cut the sound off and started yelling that everyone "get the f*ck out of here or go to jail". This is where it got really sticky.



No one resisted. That's for sure. They had police dogs raiding the crowd of people and I saw a dog signal out a guy who obviously had some drugs on him. The soldiers attacked the guy (4 of them on 1), and kicked him a few times in the ribs and had their knees in his back and sides. As they were cuffing him, there was about 1000 kids trying to leave in the backdrop, peacefully. Next thing I know, A can of f*cking TEAR GAS is launched into the crowd. People are running and screaming at this point. Girls are crying, guys are cussing... bad scene.



Now, this is all I saw with my own eyes, but I heard plenty of other accounts of the night. Now this isnt gossip I heard from some candy raver, these are instances cited straight out of the promoters mouth..



- One of the promoters friends (a very small female) was attacked by one of the police dogs. As she struggled to get away from it, the police tackled her. 3 grown men proceeded to KICK HER IN THE STOMACH.



- The police confiscated 3 video tapes in total. People were trying to document what was happening out there. The police saw one guy filming and ran after him, tackled him and his camera fell, and luckily.. his friend grabbed it and ran and got away. priceless footage. That's not all though. Out of 1,500 people, there's sure to be more footage.



- The police were rounding up the staff of the party and the main promoter went up to them with the permit for the show and said "here, I have the permit." The police then said, "no you don't" and ripped the permit out of his hand. Then, they put an assault rifle to his forehead and said "get the f*ck out of here right now."







Now.. let's get the facts straight here.



This event was 100% legal. They had every permit the city told them they needed. They had a 2 MILLION DOLLAR insurance policy for the event. They had liscenced security guards at the gates confiscating any alcohol or drugs found upon entry (yes, they searched every car on the way in). Oh, I suppose I should mention that they arrested all the security guards for possession.



Oh another interesting fact.. the police did not have a warrant. The owner of the land already has a lawsuit against the city for something similar. A few months ago, she rented her land for a party and the police raided that as well. And catch this, the police forced her to LEAVE HER OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY. That's right. They didnt arrest her, but made her leave her own property!!!



Don't get it twisted, this is all going down in probably THE most conservative state in the USA. And this is scary.. a gross violation of our civil liberties. The police wanted this party shut down, so they made it happen. Even though everything about this event was legal. The promoters spent over $ 20,000 on this show and did everything they had to to make it legit, only to have it taken away from them by a group of radical neo-con's with an agenda.



This was one of the scariest things I have ever witnessed in person. I can't even begin to describe how surreal it was. Helicopters, assault rifles, tear gas, camoflauge-wearing soldiers.... why? Was that really necessary?



This needs to be big news across the USofA. At least in our music scene (edm as a whole)... this could happen to any of us at any time. When we're losing the right to gather peacefully, we're also letting the police set a standard of what we can get away with. And I think that's BULLSHIT!



The system f*cked up last night... They broke up a party that was 100% legal and they physically hurt a lot of people there at the same time. The promoters already have 6 lawsuits ready to file with their lawyers and the ACLU is already involved.



I'm sure some pictures (and hopefully some video) will surface soon. I'll make sure to post them up here on 404, so you can see the Police State of America at work. "



What can we do?



THE VIDEO

http://homepage.mac.com/apexgrin/FileSharing2.html
br>
http://djmuteyproductions.com/fascism.mov
br>
http://www.angrymobclan.com/facism.mov
br>
http://fatbaron.com/videos.html
*Torrent Files here*

http://www.utrave.org/media/fascism.mov
br>
http://www.utrave.org/media/fascism.wmv
br>
http://www.herbix.org/facism.wmv
br>




Utah News Coverage

http://www.co.utah.ut.us/News/DeptN...HERIFF&ID=17759
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http://www.abc4.tv/local_news/local...AE-9988C45CE8A7
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http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=96651
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http://www.fox13.com/
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User Posts

http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/11330.php
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http://forums.di.fm/showthread.php?t=85779&page=2
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http://flyservers.com/members5/poli...tah_police.html
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TAKE A STAND!!!!!!

Orrin Hatch

857 East 970 North

Orem, Utah 84097

http://www.hatch.senate.gov/index.c...Offices.Contact
br>


Bob Bennett

431 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510(202) 224-5444





Mark Shurtleff ( A.G )

info@markshurtleff.com



John Valentine ( Utah County District 14)

801-224-1693



Jon Huntsman Jr ( Gov )

jon@votehuntsman.com



Welcome to UTAH COUNTY GOVERNMENT

The Utah County Commission would like to know how we can better serve you.



We welcome your suggestions in writing.



100 East Center, Suite 2200

Provo, UT 84606



Or you may call us at:



(801) 851-8600



Or you may respond via email at:



ucadm.utahcnty@state.ut.us



New york times

news-tips@nytimes.com

national@nytimes.com



CNN

http://www.cnn.com/feedback/tips/
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NBC



Today@NBC.com

WT@nbc.com

Nightly@NBC.com

Dateline@NBC.com

viewerservices@msnbc.com



Fox news

Feedback@foxnews.com

go to http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77538,00.html
and click "email story"



ABC news

http://abcnews.go.com/Reference/story?id=54216
(lots of shows to contact)



USA today

http://asp.usatoday.com/marketing/f...ne.aspx?type=18
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LA times

http://www.latimes.com/services/sit...44908.htmlstory
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http://www.aclu.org/
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http://www.emdef.org/
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http://www.slweekly.com/
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news@abc4.tv

news@fox13.com

http://kutv.com/contact
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http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=205
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http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form11.html?1
br>


The freedoms America fights for in other countries are still lacking on the home front! Please help spread the word and right this injustice! Some of my friends were at this party... eek





To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted:hmmm interesting how a lot of the links show up 404's

seems a bit shitty to be brocken up like that if it was legit hmmmmm ....


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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:Wow!eek

My favourite quotes from media links
"raid police seized weapons and drugs, including marijuana, ecstasy, psychadelic mushrooms, cocaine and alcohol" - did I mention weapons?

and this great closing paragraph...

"Police also confiscated counterfeit currency at the event and encountered a 17-year old who had overdosed on ecstasy. "

When first reading this my initial reaction was that it must've been next to a secret army base or somthing... ubblol

I hope enough publicity can be generated from this to stop in happening again... though me impression on Utah is probably more liberal than it really is....


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted:i watched the video posted and most of it was really boring - watch the last few min though and its a bit shocking - the real question is what was the person doing

also if they have a permit shouldnt there be a copy or something @ where ever the permit was issued? hmmm

more information needed me thinks.....


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Igirisujin
Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston
Member Since: 10th Jul 2005
Total posts: 2666
Posted:Written by: DeepSoulSheep

Wow!eek

My favourite quotes from media links
"raid police seized weapons and drugs, including marijuana, ecstasy, psychadelic mushrooms, cocaine and alcohol" - did I mention weapons?

and this great closing paragraph...

"Police also confiscated counterfeit currency at the event and encountered a 17-year old who had overdosed on ecstasy. "

When first reading this my initial reaction was that it must've been next to a secret army base or somthing... ubblol

I hope enough publicity can be generated from this to stop in happening again... though me impression on Utah is probably more liberal than it really is....



Im confused, that stuff is true? Or made up?


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Here's the funny thing I can say about Utah. Most of the state is blatently conservative. There are few moderates. The minority is STRONGLY liberal to make up for the rest of the state.

People are slowly weeding out the truth to this. For instance, the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) has already been contacted, and lawsuits ready to fly. The promoters have made a statement that they have all the correct permits, and that the police confiscated and tore the permits up and shoved back one of the promoters at gunpoint when he tried to give proof during the mess. However, there is proof that the permits have been made through credit card transactions.

As for the drugs, have you ever know a drug free party, concert, rap, rock, etc? However this rave was singled out.

The matter is whether excessive force was involved, and why didn't they simply close up the party with a few cops rather than SWAT teams with assault rifles?

Or better yet, why aren't they cracking down on Polygamy in north and south Utah (also illegal) rather than hitting a bunch of 'kids' throwing a legal party?


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

Delete

KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:As for the "treating of a 17 year old girl on ecstasy..."

Written by:
I wanted to reply to an email written to an Alex from the UK about the Rave that was torn to shreds by Utah County law enforcement. I want you to know up front that I did not attend this party, but I am concerned for my own safety in the future. I spent two years licensed as an armed security officer, and Ive worked security at more raves than I can count. Ive [/size]confiscated more drugs than I can even begin to name. Ive also turned over ALL of the drugs Ive ever confiscated to local law enforcement. Ive been hearing that they arrested the security officers from the party for possession of drugs and paraphernalia. Of course theyre going to have stuff on them!! They were searching cars at the gate, as Ive personally done many times. Often security officers will catch things, put them in a pocket and keep searching. At the end of the night the material was handed over to myself or my partner to be turned into the police. This particular issue has me concerned because I do not have the resources to fight the justice system if this kind of thing happens again. By arresting the security officers, they make it THAT much harder to find GOOD security people, who are honest and want to make a difference in the Rave community. So promoters are forced to settle for lower quality people, and more things make it into the parties. Its a vicious cycle that the police departments themselves are starting. They want the drugs off the street, leave us alone, let us do our jobs, and theyll see results. I got out of doing Rave security because someone in our team violated our rules and trust, and nearly got us all arrested for his stupidity. Ive only recently began doing security again and passed up this particular party because I already had plans. This is only the beginning of what has gotten me so concerned.



I did security at a party called SEQUENCE in the middle of July, and as I was heading home I was harassed by Utah County Sheriffs Deputies waiting at the bottom of the hill for us. They pulled me over for a burned out license plate light which was their excuse for at least another DOZEN or so vehicles leaving the party. They asked me if I was on drugs or had been drinking, and I was wearing Military BDUs, with a name tape with my last name on my right breast, and SECURITY on a tape on my left breast. I was also wearing a black baseball hat that said SECURITY across it. He asked me quite snidely if I were on military operations up at the party, and I simply told him Id been working security for the party, and which he sneered and laughed at. He told me to warn the promoters that the next party WOULD get shut down, threw my license and registration in my lap, turned around and walked away. This act in itself tells me that this has been in the works for quite some time. They were obviously upset that they did not have the man power to shut Sequence down and came at the promoter of THIS party with a vengeance.



My next issue is the brutality by the police. Ive seen video of people being taken down at the party, police dogs SNAPPING at scared, unarmed individuals. I dont know if anyone has provided you a link to this video, but Id be happy to forward to it if youd like. This kind of behavior by the police is amazing to me. With the police wed like to expect that theyll behave with professionalism, integrity, and empathy. I laugh as I see the news report of all these alleged near fatal shootings at raves, as Id worked them for two years, and NEVER had to draw a firearm, and I never even felt that I was in danger. Sure, Ive taken people into custody and waited for the police to come pick them up, sure Ive broken up fights, but in all honestly the majority of the people who attend these parties are peaceful people, who dont want drama, dont want fights, they just want to go to a party, dance as hard as they can to the music that moves their souls. Absolute brutality to these kind of people outrages me to no limit. I expected that the police would shut down another party, which is not even the issue, its the way they handled themselves. I never would have imagined that they would be recruiting SWAT teams to handle these people. I can see calling SWAT on a Rap show where theyre going off about rape, murder, drugs and money. I dont even see why you would need to be recruiting K9 units to break up a rave. They had helicopters overhead with infrared cameras, so you cant even say that they needed it to be able to find someone that took off running. I think that the addition of K9s to SWAT for a rave, is completely uncalled for and SEVERE overkill. I dont know how familiar you are with electronic music, but most of it doesnt even have lyrics. And never have I heard any that endorses drug abuse, rape, violence like the police ACT like it induces. Sure, in ANY music gathering you have, you will have drug use of some sort. People see the Grateful dead, and they smoke weed, do acid and whatever else floats their boat. You go see Snoop Dogg, you have people Smoking weed like theres no tomorrow. I mean, the only music you can go to without finding people abusing drugs in one form or another would be things like Classical, Opera, and Yanni or Enya. Even then, half the classical composers wrote their music while drunk or hopped up on drugs. Drugs and music will inevitably forever be linked together in some way shape or form. Its one of those sad things that were powerless to change, no matter how we try.



The Police stated that there was a 17 year old girl who had overdosed on ecstasy that they found, not the promoters, and they said the girl was treated on site, and released to her parents. Im sorry, but when youve overdosed on a drug, it typically requires hospitalization for at least 6 hours. You dont just treat an overdose on site. Not only that, but MDMA itself is VERY hard to overdose on because it causes the neural receptors to be flooded with serotonin, a chemical in the brain, produced by the brain. Its all the other dirty stuff floating around that she would have been overdosed on, and I can tell you a methamphetamine overdose is NOT something that an EMT can treat with water. You see, with Ecstasy, there is MDMA which is the primary component, but its non-cohesive. It can not on its own be pressed into a pill. So drug makers combine it with things from cocaine, to meth, to lord knows what else. That in itself is what makes taking Ecstasy so dangerous. You NEVER know what the other components are, nor do you know the quantity of what youre taking. So honestly, I have to call the Sheriffs offices bluff on the alleged Overdose.



In closing, I want to thank you for enduring my two page letter as to my outrage and concern regarding this entire fiasco. The police departments are looking at MANY law suits, and I pray to God that they are held accountable for the severe lack of good judgment displayed by City officials, Police administrators, and the officers themselves. I hope you take this community seriously, and help us have our cry heard loud and clear by ALL law enforcement agencies that have sensationalized our community to the very outer limits of the truth. Please make our voices be heard, and please act with the very integrity, honor, and professionalism that we all hope will be given to this ordeal.



Sincerely,

Sean.

P.S. Im 25 years old. Im hardly a kid as the law enforcement community refers to us.



To sum it up, police brutality, and one does not "treat ecstasy overdose" in 30 minutes and release the person.

Sad.


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted:thank you kael - that was a very intersting letter biggrin

its so sad when a group is used as a target - most of all the police

you wonder what kind of world we live in where a party cant be held

similar things have happened with play and fal. we may have to mvoe fal because we were too loud at the campsite

and play may have to move as well because of a fight that occured. i think that a lot of groups only let you have fun if its in the day light, quite, and preferably with less that 1 other person


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Yeah, and I can belive it- locally we had some problems with police freaking out and tear gassing people last spring. Mostly people just trying to walk to their houses or shops and such. The events under investigation, and they "apologized" for it, but... Its not a good trend :/

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:To Joe FOABC
the quotes are from articles Utah websites.

I don't know if they're true.

They do mention weapons, fake money and drug overdoses which I find amusing...


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:wow - I cant help but draw comparison between this and what happened at Czechtech this year... at least no-one died at this one.

Czechtech link;
http://scotland.indymedia.org/newswire/display/1980/index.php
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all around me I see the values our goverments are killing people in other nations in the name of being erroded in our own frown


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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linden rathen
linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 2nd Mar 2005
Total posts: 6942
Posted:frown and the law makers wonder why people end up having illegal raves and getting arsy with the police.......

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:This is horrible news and has been bringing me down all day. frown

A perfectly legal and safe party being terrorised by the police, who on earth does that serve?! (Well, the answer is obvious but if I start, it'll just turn into a rant)

I am however wondering how prepared I should be for this kind of thing happening the next time I go to a party. This article on health and first aid for protesters may prove interesting reading for others who are wondering similar things.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Welcome to the United States of Police.

Only the naive ever accused this of being a free country.

It's free if you're white, straight, middle-classed, and believe that a good time is a bar-b-que in the yard.

Other than that, look out.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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ZeeBoo
ZeeBoo

member
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 10th Aug 2004
Total posts: 167
Posted:It is sickening to see and I hope the law breakers (ie police) get their just deserts.

Just because I'm an adult doesn't make me responsible.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: lightning




Only the naive ever accused this of being a free country.









I disagree- it's also those who see 'freedom' as being a relative matter and who can compare/contrast our level of freedom with that of truly oppressive police states ie states where police are routinly brutal and totally unnacountable.



Written by: lightning




Welcome to the United States of Police.







While there are times in the USA and UK where police have brutalised and murdered innocents, they are a minority occurance that leads to scandal and punishment. In less free parts of the world such brutality is routine- the police/govt can torure and murder civilians with no fear of retribution, and civilians there who express their dissatisfaction as you have just done, will likely be arrested and subjected to such brutality.



Following the links to the above incident you will see articles of other such problems at free parties where legal action has been brought against the police/local govt- this is a luxury that those living in true police states do not have.



I'm not going to say that those in the US are 100% free (that is impossible, even in principle), but, compared to true police states, we are free.



IMO, it's a little insulting to those who have lived and died in true police states, to suggest that those of us in the US suffer anything approaching the lack of freedom that they did/do.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

IMO, it's a little insulting to those who have lived and died in true police states, to suggest that those of us in the US suffer anything approaching the lack of freedom that they did/do.



Can you not feel the way the wind is blowing dave? This story, Guantanimo Bay, the USA Patriot Act, ID cards, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, do you not think that this is all getting increasingly scary increasingly quickly?


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:A lot of people in true police states get away with a lot of stuff too tho- a la zimbabwe... there's plenty of people who have "life as usual" there in just a slightly different fashion. And the growing incidences of police brutality and the lack of actual remorse or change that often happens is, whilst not the same, a bad step. The difference is in quanitity of situations... but there are also many that don't make the news. For those that have their lives ruined or are killed its no different.... Only for those who are seriously harmed is there some better answer here. I can't speak for england.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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quiet
quiet

analytic
Location: bristol
Member Since: 15th Sep 2004
Total posts: 503
Posted:nice link, 87

ture na sig

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: 87wt2gxq7


Can you not feel the way the wind is blowing dave? This story, Guantanimo Bay, the USA Patriot Act, ID cards, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, do you not think that this is all getting increasingly scary increasingly quickly?



Firstly I'll say that I was responding to implications that the US is currently virtually a police state- IMO, it's not.

You seem to be talking about the 'slippery slope' scenario, which often comes up when this issue is discussed ie we're not a police state yet, but, if this continues, we soon will be.

I'll admit it is a possibility; equally though, it's a possibility that we won't end up as a police state.

I'm not particularly worried at the moment because I know that the 'slippery slope' argument is far from new- it's always brought into play whenever someone doesn't like a piece of proposed legislation that can be seen as curtailing freedom.

To quote lightnings post-

'It's free if you're white, straight, middle-classed, and believe that a good time is a bar-b-que in the yard.'

Compare the US now to the US in the 1930's, and ask yourself whether you'd rather be gay or ethnic minority back then... or now.

Much of the legislation that means that gays and ethnic minorities are more free to live their lives than they where in the 1930's would similarly have been seen as a 'slippery slope'. Those 'slippery slopes' were not real then, and could well not be real now.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:Heh, I've started this reply about eight times but it's just ended up with me clenching my fists and making my nooooyou'rewrong! face at the computer. biggrin

Basically onewheeldave, my contention with what you said is that you seem to be implying there's a threshold somewhere, some kind of dividing line between Police State and Non. In reality I reckon it's a question of degree. Sure it's not yet as bad in the US or the UK as, say, Amin's Uganda or Hitler's Germany, but every time things like the examples I gave happen, we get one more step towards the Distopia end of the spectrum. And injustice carries its own momentum. The more we accept the erosion of our civil liberties, the easier it'll be for legislation that allows the police to read our emails to be rushed through parliment, the easier it'll be for the police to tear gas perfectly legal parties.

Sure the slippery slope argument may not be new but that doesn't make it any less real or any less worrying. Fascism may not be new but I still fear and hate the BNP.

Yes if I were black or gay I'd rather be living in the US now than in the 1930s, but it seems to me the people who cried "slippery slope!" at gay / ethnic minority rights back then are the same kind of people who are pushing us down the slippery slope back towards 1930s america now.

I've aimed for conciseness but I still hope i've made my point clear - my apologies if not, and if I've misunderstood what you said.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Again let me stress that the main point of my first post on this thread was to maintain that currently the US (and the UK, and most nations in the west) are definitly not police states.

All I'm going to say about the seperate issue of 'slippery slopes' is that, historically, some scenarios which have been called slippery slopes (to fascism) have actually been slippery slopes, and some haven't.

An example of one that was would be 1930's Germany, and and example of one that wasn't would be 1930's America.

The point being that just because some see the current US situation as the beginning of a slippery slope to fascism doesn't mean that it will actually turn out that way- it may do; equally, it may not.

I think I'm done here as I can see the way this thread is going, however, I'm sufficiently interested in what I see as a deeper underlying aspect to this freedom issue that I'm going to start off a new thread- that issue being my belief that it is actually a prerequisit of any kind of meaningful freedom in the state, that there is a fairly high degree of curtailment of some individual liberties- it is here: -

http://www.homeofpoi.com/ubbthreads/show...;vc=#Post488560
br>
(freedom and the state)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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87wt2gxq7
87wt2gxq7

veteran
Location: Birmingham
Member Since: 12th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1502
Posted:Yeah, I think I see your point. Do you see mine though? Namely: just because the outcome isn't certain doesn't mean we can afford not to be vigilant at every turn. Oh, and riot police beating up teenage ravers is bad, m'kay.

Good work on the spin-off thread, it looks like it's going to be an interesting one.


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I agree, police brutality is bad; and I agree that we need to be vigilant.

I was posting here because a previous post suggested that the US is not a free state, and because I wanted to clarify that a few measures by the state do not necessarily mean a slide into fascism.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:I'm going to weigh in and say something that is in some ways between OWD and 87, but perhaps even more radical than even what 87 says.

The USA has become increasingly Big-Brotherish in the last few years, something brought into sharp focus for me since I have actually not lived in the United States for the last few years either. I won't get into all the various reasons I think so, but I will relay one personal story.

Last time I visted the USA (a few months ago), of the 5 flights I took, my bags, both carry on and check in, were THOROUGHLY searched - I mean every single zipper pocket of everything was gone over in minute detail. While I have been subject to random searches before both in the USA and elsewhere, it was always a cursory look, and only rarely.

I think the "random" searches give you about a 1 in 10 chance of getting searched in the security area. So that means that being searched 5 times in a row is, by itself, about a 1 in 100,000 chance. Unlikely that it was random then. And given the verocity of the searches, which I have NEVER seen before (and indeed, others being searched at the same time did not get so much attention, plus the fact that I chatted up one of the federal agents doing the searching and he said a couple suspect things, I 100% do not believe these searches were in any way random.

I am clearly on a "list". How did this happen? I've sent a few emails and made a few posts protesting the Bush regieme. And I have choosen to not live in the USA for a while. That is about it.

I am fairly certain no one really considers me a threat to national security. I am also fairly certain what is going on here is a policy by the Bush administration, after being given totally unreasonable powers in the patriot act and other such unconstitutional mullarky, is harrassing me for voicing my opinion against it.

I do not think I am being paranoid in this. what I experienced speaks for itself, and is virtually impossible to explain otherwise.

But I tell you what - if they intend to make me cease and desist via harrasment, then they are mistaken. NOW is the time to start civil disobedience to fight the coming tide of authority abuse. Now is the time to speak against the use of public fear to install as many elements of a police state that those twats can manage.

Bush has said, "this would be a whole lot easier if it were a dictatorship."

He wasn't making a joke, he was telling us what he wants.

As for my name on the list. Fine - I'll wear it as a badge of pride, and everytime my bags are searched, I will assail the security agents with a speach of how 'unamerican' the current regieme is.

Down with tyranny! Down with Bush! Now is a crucial time - a time for all Americans of good conscience to step up to the looming threat from within. The police state is not here yet, but it is a possiblity if not a likelyhood (as per OWD's point). If you wait till it has arrived to fight it, you will be too late.

This is a far bigger threat than terrorism, even if not yet actualized.

And to tell you exactly how far I personally beleive things have gone, I will say that I honestly believe the following words will cause me even more friction next time I am in the states even just by uttering them here:

Protect America. Resist now.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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_Clare_
_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast
Member Since: 22nd Oct 2002
Total posts: 5967
Posted:How?

What practical steps can you take to 'resist'?

Most people are being searched thoroughly going through airports these days, tis very annoying and time-consuming.

I questioned the woman searching me as I travelled from Heathrow yesterday - she looked at me in disgust and said 'you understand we're trying to prevent a bomb attack'.

The random bag searches referred to, however, are the ones carried out on the metro/underground - I think the airport searches are pretty much standard.


Getting to the other side smile

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Pyrolific

wow - I cant help but draw comparison between this and what happened at Czechtech this year... at least no-one died at this one.

Czechtech link;
http://scotland.indymedia.org/newswire/display/1980/index.php
br>
all around me I see the values our goverments are killing people in other nations in the name of being erroded in our own frown


Yeah some of my mates were there this year and got caught in the tear gas, luckily they got out fine, unlike some others they know who had their van ruined by the water cannons frown


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Glowstickers broken up by the police?

Yet another case of the ravers copying the firespinners. wink

Stay out of jail homie.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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KaelGotRice
KaelGotRice

Basu gasu bakuhatsu - because sometimes buses explode
Location: Angel's Landing, USA
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 1584
Posted:Some people I know were stuck in jail overnight... currently working on how much they can sue for.

wink

Details are still being worked out, but it made farknews!

www.fark.com


To do: More Firedrums 08 video?
Wildfire/US East coast fire footage
LA/EDC glow/fire footage
Fresno fire

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ubbrollsmile.gif" alt="" />

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