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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Who believes in it?

I dont, under any circumstances

When someone is punished for theire crimes its called justice, but how can you ever justify a murder? The people who decide weather capital punishment (is that what its called) is used in a country (or state) are putting prices on life, and you cant do that.


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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lauz the caterpilla


lauz the caterpilla

goddess of all things slimey and an interchangeable insect!
Location: nottingham - the land of oppor...

Total posts: 2443
Posted:hmmm you cant justify murder by killing the murderer but on the end how do you punish someone for it. do you just let them go and be free to kill another innocent person.

this is a difficult discission for any government to make. and the question comes down to, how do you punish a murderer in a humane way?


Shhhhhh! the boobies are trying to sleep.
owner and the property of noddy.
*i was a caterpilla last night wink* - libby_tuesday

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thelost
SILVER Member since Aug 2005

thelost

mmm...i feel all warm and fuzzy... 'no dude, that's your hair on fire'
Location: Birmingham, Australia

Total posts: 355
Posted:Well, in my opinion, killing a murderer as a punishment i.e. capital punishment, is the easy way out for the murderer.

A punishment's purpose is to make people regret and reflect and to do that, you give them time. That's why i think that life sentences are better than death sentences.

I don't believe in capital punishment either, but for other reasons as well as its inhumanity.


It's better to burn out than to fade away

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lauz the caterpilla


lauz the caterpilla

goddess of all things slimey and an interchangeable insect!
Location: nottingham - the land of oppor...

Total posts: 2443
Posted:then surely they should keep the murderer there for life and not let them out 20 years later.

Shhhhhh! the boobies are trying to sleep.
owner and the property of noddy.
*i was a caterpilla last night wink* - libby_tuesday

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thelost
SILVER Member since Aug 2005

thelost

mmm...i feel all warm and fuzzy... 'no dude, that's your hair on fire'
Location: Birmingham, Australia

Total posts: 355
Posted:That'd be great in an ideal world...but the problem is, the tax-payers are funding criminals to sit in jail and eat and sleep and not much else... you can kinda understand why they can't be kept in for life.

It's better to burn out than to fade away

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weeleigh


weeleigh

look a rainbow!
Location: Waterford, CT

Total posts: 237
Posted:See, it might sound mean, but I've always been for making people who are sentenced like that work for the rest of their lives. There's a bunch of menial tasks that life-row convicts could perform while still being under guard, and I feel like the only fair thing for a person who takes another life is to make them give back to the society that they took away from for the rest of their lives. Cause think about it, keeping them alive and killing them both cost everyone else, and they're both easy ways out.

"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth."

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:i think people who recieve the death penalty should become human guinea pigs and repay their debt to society by contributing to science rather than being a burden on society, after all there are things worse than death. theres alot of drugs that could use some human testing, and alot that isnt known about how the brain works especially in regard to the remapping occurs after the loss of a limb, not to mention the huge number of conditions that occur due to part of the brain being damaged , not to mention this could use some volunteers for perfecting the technique. the list just goes on and on .....

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Ry
GOLD Member since Feb 2005

Ry

Gromit's Humble Squire
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 4496
Posted:Human guinea pigs.. I'd not argue with that. To me, once someone's crossed a certain line, they don't deserve the pleasures of eating, sleeping, stretching.. life, wherever it is.

As harsh as I probably sound, no, I haven't been immediately affected by the deeds of a psycho criminal. But I can imagine how I'd feel if I was.

Seriously, I have no sympathy whatsoever for psychotic killers, rapists and the like. Give the worst of the worst a king of the hill status in the prison so he/she can live the rest of his/her life being fed and sheltered by hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money?

What should be addressed though, imho, is the justice system. I don't believe that there is any justification for the reality in which the cost of appeals against convictions reach or surpass the cost of execution. And regarding accidental execution of innocents- it's not an argument why serial killers shouldn't be executed. It says that there's something wrong with the methodology used in judging the accused.

And no, I'm not posting because I need to convince anyone of anything. So I'm quite probably not going to post in this thread again. If you really need to tell me I'm a horrible horrible person and I should die, drop me a PM.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:The question is: how do you 100% prove guilt in a contested case?

I can see the death penalty used in the case of a confession, but what when the accused swears he didn't do it? People have been exhonerated 10, 20 years after the crime.

And death is a pretty darned permanent punishment.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:I don't know what my views on this are as I have mixed emotions about it...

However just to throw in a little bit of meat to this discussion: Why should we (the tax payer) have to pay for someone to live in a place where they sometimes get more things on offer to them than someone living on the bread line when they have committed crimes against humanity?


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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

The question is: how do you 100% prove guilt in a contested case?


hypnosis


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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PsychoTronic


stranger
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens

Total posts: 80
Posted:Guinea pigs? What if someone is innocent? How can anyone be sure? In the past time statistics have shown that about 17% of the people that where convicted in death where innocent.So how can you tell? How unhuman is to kill people or to make them guinea pigs.... See there are many people of many countries that have learnt to kill other people when their religion sais so.In Turkey if someone steals an apple they take his hand... And that is what their religion sais. And I am asking all of you If someone rapes your mother or your younger brother you would like him to be punished with death. But if you kill him because of what he did would you deserve death? In my opinion jail is fine but it should be better with the attendance of psychologists and other people that would help the prisoners to change.
I dont know if you can make sense of what I say, sorry my english are not that good... frown


"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes,
a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous."
"Put out the torches! Hide the moon! Hide the stars!"



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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:Hypnosis doesn't work in all cases....I know for a fact that I can't be hypnotised.

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PsychoTronic


stranger
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens

Total posts: 80
Posted:hypnosis is not always correct.I mean that someone can tell something that had in dreams and not in real life.That had happened to many people. Do you think that all people judjes cops e.t.c are so stupid and they dont use this if it gives a correct answer?

"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes,
a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous."
"Put out the torches! Hide the moon! Hide the stars!"



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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:Some murderers and rapists and people of that kind can not be changed...

If a rapist raped my sister or mother I wouldn't want them dead...but I would want them to suffer...what I am about to say is nasty so please don't read if you are easily offended. I would chop off his penis. Then he wouldn't be able to rape again and he would suffer.


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PsychoTronic


stranger
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens

Total posts: 80
Posted:They could change...
The rapists today were the children that were watching too much violence in tv or in their city. Generally society has a big problem... a huge problem. Ripping of their penis does not solve the problems. Give education to children give love and teach them to respect the others. After the harm takes place the only thing we can do is try to get rid of all the criminals. Very last solution that does not solve any problem.


"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes,
a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous."
"Put out the torches! Hide the moon! Hide the stars!"



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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:You really need to read up more on crimes and the psychological mindset of killers and rapists.



Some of the most prolific killers are very well educated and have come from "normal" families so how can you say that giving love and education can reform all criminals...some maybe but certainly not all.



And as for my viewpont of taking something that could be used to hurt more people I react that way because I am very protective of my family.


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PsychoTronic


stranger
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens

Total posts: 80
Posted:My best cousin is an eglimatologists.(works for the police in crimes) The serial killers are like that but there are not only they that they kill.
I dont talk about rapsist that rapes all time.I am talking about the people that due to a passion killed someone for a reason or because of self defense or because of honour.Or someone that raped once because of his passion for his girlfriend because he got drunk e.t.c. .. I am talking about a person that did a lethal mistake and was the reason to sink a ship that was 800 people on it.Do you kill him????He didnt do it in purpose but he was not where he should be in the bridge of the ship.If he had learnt the respect to others and to his job he would missing from the bridge.That had happened in Greece in 2000.One other time a person killed someone because he killed his wife. Do you kill him?Another one made his girlfriend a harlot and then she was a wrack... he was beating her and she killed him... If this guy was grown in a better situation he wouldnt be such a p...
As far as serial killers and rapists it is not a matter of prison but of a psych. asylum.


"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes,
a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous."
"Put out the torches! Hide the moon! Hide the stars!"



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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:I must have missed where we went from killers and rapists to crimes of passion.....

I thought we were talking about people who had done some horrific things and needed to be put away for life....

And I still stand by my theory of why should we pay for them to have a life in prison (where they get more than what most people living on the breadline get) when the person that they hurt is either liying rotting in a grave while their families suffer or traumatised for the rest of their lives?


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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:there's a pretty simple knock-down argument against the death penalty:

1. Even supposing that killing people is sometimes justified.
2. It's still the case that procedural justice is imperfect; that is, sometimes innocent people are convicted.
3. So imposing the death penalty involves killing innocent people.
4. And killing innocent people is so bad that the death penalty is unacceptable.

Especially when most of those convicted are a) poor and b) from ethnic minorities.


ture na sig

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Mynci
BRONZE Member since Apr 2005

Mynci

Macaque of all trades
Location: wombling free..., United Kingd...

Total posts: 8737
Posted:They should also but put to "ye olde style" back breaking pyhsical labour or service, not just sat on the backsides being fed. They should work for their keep in prison so we don't have to keep paying for them. basic rations to maintain health. and no pleasureable activities at all. (please no bleeding hart liberals talking about human rights....some of the crimes these people commit transcend there right to anything good) I'm not saying they should be mistreated....but given the blandest existance possible with zero pleaseures.

A couple of balls short of a full cascade... or maybe a few cards short of a deck... we'll see how this all fans out.

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:Written by: FenixFyre

Hypnosis doesn't work in all cases....I know for a fact that I can't be hypnotised.


hypnosis doesnt work if your not open to suggestion and in a normal state of mind your able to block out the suggestions, however the brain being the complex thing that it is can be manipulated, it just depends on the level of suggestion thats used.

For example when the australian military wants to break prisoners they use the power of sugestion to get someone to think that they are dying, nothing makes someones believes and conditioning crumble quite as fast as feeling as though you are dying on someone elses terms. such extreme suggestion often results in mental trauma however the point is that your mental state effects how well things like hypnosis work

PsychoTronic it costs lots of money to keep people in prisions, some of those ppl dont deserve a second chance, with the amount of poverty there is in the world how can u justify wanting to spend money maintaining an existence on a serial killer/rapist/phedeophile/etc when there are others who will die from starvation/disease/etc who have done nothing wrong.


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:I find it crazy that the US government decides to execute people for killing just a handful of people. Afterall they probably kill many many more on any given day. But for some reason they are allowed to commit genocide but we cannot commit murder. I don't get it. What if i murdered Bush, would i be eligible for the death penalty, or a medal of honour?

There's a great film/play called "11 angry men" (i think) that is about convicting innocent people. It's very interesting.

I think america's so into the death penalty because it's so in-grained in their fundamentist christianity. I think as america grows up (it's still just a toddler) it will abandon the death penalty....

Anyhoo, enough tired ramblingss....


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: ben-ja-men

Written by: Doc Lightning

The question is: how do you 100% prove guilt in a contested case?


hypnosis



Even with that, you can't force hypnotized people to do something they REALLY don't want to do. Like admitting to murder.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston, United Kingdom

Total posts: 2666
Posted:Written by: Ry

Human guinea pigs.. I'd not argue with that. To me, once someone's crossed a certain line, they don't deserve the pleasures of eating, sleeping, stretching.. life, wherever it is.

As harsh as I probably sound, no, I haven't been immediately affected by the deeds of a psycho criminal. But I can imagine how I'd feel if I was.

Seriously, I have no sympathy whatsoever for psychotic killers, rapists and the like. Give the worst of the worst a king of the hill status in the prison so he/she can live the rest of his/her life being fed and sheltered by hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money?

What should be addressed though, imho, is the justice system. I don't believe that there is any justification for the reality in which the cost of appeals against convictions reach or surpass the cost of execution. And regarding accidental execution of innocents- it's not an argument why serial killers shouldn't be executed. It says that there's something wrong with the methodology used in judging the accused.

And no, I'm not posting because I need to convince anyone of anything. So I'm quite probably not going to post in this thread again. If you really need to tell me I'm a horrible horrible person and I should die, drop me a PM.



lol i dont think anyone on heres gonna send you any hate mail ubbrollsmile

Oh dear I would hope that never happens, turning someone into a human ginie pig would just lower society to the criminals level, why would we want to do that? I think crimainals should get life (and I mean life not 20 years and let em out thats a pitiful scentence) and ide gladly pay taxes to keep them in prison so they cant do any harm to anyone else.

But I think the prisons should be made abit more prison like, not like hotels wich they are now. dunno who decided these people need cable tv and basket ball courts and god knows what, not bread and water tho and a hole in the floor for a toilet lol I wouldnt let a stray dog live in those kind of conditions


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

'Time goes by so slowly for those who wait...' - Whatever Happend To Baby Madonna?

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I think a society can be judged by how it treats its enemies; be they foreign soldiers or common criminals.

Look at how the Romans treated their criminals. They threw them to the lions. Literally.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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animatEd
BRONZE Member since Aug 2004

animatEd

1 + 1 = 3
Location: Bristol UK

Total posts: 3540
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning


[you can't force hypnotized people to do something they REALLY don't want to do. Like admitting to murder.





Very true. My mum's other half is a hypnotherapist. The first thing he told me about it was that you can't make someone do what they don't want to do. The hypnotizee is always in complete control.



He then told me story about why the police don't use hypnosis when questioning criminals. He said that somebody was being questioned under hypnosis, and they didn't like the way that they were being questioned, so they brought THEMSELVES out of hypnosis, and told them to *bugger off* in a not so nice way...



Hypnosis doesn't mean you can control people. It means you can suggest things to people. If I told you to jump under a bus, you wouldn't do it. Because you don't want to. It's the same with hypnosis. I could hypnotise you, and while you're in the trance, I could say 'you want to jump under a bus. You like jumping under buses. There's a bus. Do it.'. You're subconcious would turn round and tell you 'hang on, If I jump under a bus, I'm dead. BAD idea' and you don't jump under a bus.



Anyway...



I believe Gandalf says it best:



There are many people living in this world that deserve death. Many people die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?



Or something along those lines...


Empty your mind. Be formless, Shapeless, like Water.
Put Water into a cup, it becomes the cup, put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Water can flow, or it can Crash.
Be Water My Friend.

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:Ry: quote:

'And regarding accidental execution of innocents- it's not an argument why serial killers shouldn't be executed. It says that there's something wrong with the methodology used in judging the accused'

1. Of course it's not an argument against executing serial killers - but I never said it was. It's an argument against having the death penalty in the statue books. Given that the procedure of judgement is flawed (I assume you're referring to the jury, rather than the judge), the risk of killing innocents is simply too great.
2. You mean 'method', not methodology. Methodology is the study of method.


ture na sig

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I think Gandalf raised a very good point in the Fellowship.

Personally I don't believe that anyone has the right to take the life of anouther. There's always a better way.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:Did you know that it costs more, on average, for the American government to excecute a prisoner than it does for them to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives? I forget the exact figures but if you look on google I'm sure you can find them.

I had a police psychologist tell me that I was sociopathic (I have no internal conflict or conscience) because I snapped someone who was attacking me's arm, it was the only offensive technique I used (I blocked almost everything else). -They- then charged me with assault and it ended up in court. I got asked if I was sorry for what I did and replied "No, why should I be?" If I had killed that person would I have ended up on death row? I'm not a violent person and I'm not likely to kill unless there is a real need to (like a friend or family member in danger) but because I wouldn't feel remorse for whatever I did would that mean they'd kill me?

I think that the idea of a Victorian Workhouse is a good one. Make them work 12 hours a day for [censored] all and see how they like it, release them after 20 tears and see if they re-offend. And there was a study recently in America where peadophiles and rapists were chemically castrated that showed that they were a hell of a lot less likely to re-offend


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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Ry
GOLD Member since Feb 2005

Ry

Gromit's Humble Squire
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 4496
Posted:Written by: spherculist

There's a great film/play called "11 angry men" (i think) that is about convicting innocent people. It's very interesting.



Hey you're short of an angry man. wink


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