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Forums > Social Discussion > I am in shock That the U.S. would help in such a thing.

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_VT_
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx

Total posts: 1173
Posted:http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/nfo/article.cfm?id=4673


If the U.S. wants to send me over there to help with this crap I'm going to have to contientiously object to it.


Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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Sniper
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Sniper

Snoochie-boochie-noochies!


Total posts: 663
Posted:it's a complex situation and my very limited understanding of the whole thing makes it seem another six vs half dozen. i'd like to be able to comment but i don't know enough about it to give an intelligent comment. it does seem extreme to force these "10,000 Jewish men, women and children from their homes, schools, synagogues, farms and businesses", but i know the problems run much deeper on both side, just not how deep.

it's a difficult fence to sit on but whichever side i jump off will probably offend more people than it will help. we can expect every possible argument for and against the action being scraped from both 'sides' barrels.

we can only hope that the issue can be resolved as peacefully as possible and not have yet another iraq/afghanistan spiral.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I disagree with the statement.

I think that the pull-out is a good idea. It shows that Israel is willing to budge, that Israel is willing to negotiate, and, most importantly, it puts the ball in the court of the Palestinians.

If the attacks continue, if Palestine does not make concessions, then Israel will have every right and broad international support in standing up for itself.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_VT_
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx

Total posts: 1173
Posted:I'm jewish. not that it matters, but prime minster Ariel Sharon was elected due to the fact that when the election was going on he said he would "not" let a thing like this happen.prime minester Ariel Sharon has betrayed his people. Right now palestinians have occupied almost all of the land surrounding isreal.This is prophesied in the torah and bible . It is also prophesied that the jews would be led out of their lands by gold. did you know that the the isrealis that left before the dead line were paid 20,000 dollars per family to relocate. Most of my people are being forced out of the land that was given to them by god.I am exteremly agged about it. People being forced out of their homes in the name of peace? WTF? Where do you get peace from that? Also the U.S. is negotiating with palestine for oil rights in the lands that they have recently "aquired".Most of the jewish people in the gaza strip do not want to leave. It is their land and it is wrong for the U.S. to support palestine in the way it has.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Violently Tame

Most of my people are being forced out of the land that was given to them by god.I am exteremly agged about it. People being forced out of their homes in the name of peace? WTF? Where do you get peace from that?




Know how we talk about silly religious conflicts? Yup. This is ours. God has exactly as much place in this as he does teaching evolution in our classrooms.

If it shows that Israel is reasonable and that Israel is ready to negotiate, then it will bring about peace. It will either force the PLO to negotiate for peace, too, or it will change world opinion so that it will be OK for Israel to take back its lands.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Well there's no arguing with someone who believes that god has ordained something is there?

Of course you could say that god had said that the Jews would be lead back to the promised land by their Messiah, rather than have it given to them by the British. But that part tends to be forgotten.

I'm in favour of the pullout, for pretty much the same reasons as Doc Lightning.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Written by: Violently Tame

Also the U.S. is negotiating with Palestine for oil rights in the lands that they have recently "aquired".Most of the Jewish people in the gaza strip do not want to leave. It is their land and it is wrong for the U.S. to support Palestine in the way it has.



America interfering with a country's internal government because of Oil? Perish the thought. rolleyes

America has exactly nothing to do with anything in the Middle East, and should back off now. G.W. Bush doesn't seem to understand that you can't impose a system of government on other countries. But then Palestine vs Israel has always been a situation like this : juggle

It's a lose-lose situation, whatever happens. And the brits created it. Wow, I'm so proud of my country...


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I mean, you have to look at it from Palestinian eyes. Here they are sitting in this land for 2000 years when the Brits and Jews pop in and say "Oh, BTW, this is ours."

2000 years is a long time. Ten times as long as the US has been in its place.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I agree with lightning, to discuss this in terms of world opinion, those kind of religious points are not appropriate.

The land in question was taken from its occupants and I think that was a gross mistake, and that the fact that it was a mistake is becoming more and more obvious to the world in general.

I don't dispute that the jewish people should have been given a homeland, but surely there were far better options (maybe in Canada or Mexico?). Instead they went right into the midst of a people who they despised, and who despised them; in addition a large number of those people were displaced and condemned to a miserable existence.

Increasingly, when the aims and objectives of fundamentalist-muslim-based-terrorists are objectively looked into, it becomes apparent that the prime motive of their targeting the west are not the war in Iran, but because of the Wests support of the Jewish approach in Isreal.

And in that, they have a point- they've seen their people displaced, abused, tortured, executed ie they see themselves as justifed freedom fighters, not terrorists.

The prime reason (IMO) for the jews insistance on land in Palestine was not so much based on it being their historical homeland (because, if that were the case, then America and Australia could similarly be 'claimed' by the descendants of their original aboriginal/indian ancestors).

The real reasons were based on religion, IMO, that is very unwise and has lead to the current world situation. IMO, the jews should have been denied that land outright- given the option for a land in a sensible place, but not there.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:the US ain't on the side of the palestinians, as far as i can tell.

none of this 'god-given right' stuff holds any water. the palestinians need somewhere to live too, y'know.

they don't call it 'the occupied territories' for nothing.

but, dave, putting the jews near jerusalem isn't all that crazy an idea.


ture na sig

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I think it's definately a good move. The settlements have cause untold misery and poverty to the Palestinians.

Also, I don't remember any big fuss like this on those times when the Isreali army set about bulldozing Palestinian houses. It's a tragic double standard in favour of richer people I think.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Igirisujin
SILVER Member since Jul 2005

Igirisujin

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Preston

Total posts: 2666
Posted:I thought the jews occupied the gaza strip in the first place, occupied....occupied...?

Im for the jews really but hey its all good news it shows there willing to turn the other cheak and let the palastinians have there own state wich is better when you think of it. This whole eye for an eye thing is silly, yeah the palastinians are murdering bastards for all there acts of terrorism but its better to rise above such things and not bring yourself down to there level.

Anyhoo everyone knows the jews are tougher than palastinian, jews cick ass lol theyll survive and probably prosper in the end they have done in the past.


Chief adviser to the Pharaoh, in one very snazzy mutli-coloured coat

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Sporky


Sporky

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Posted:Written by: Violently Tame

prime minester Ariel Sharon has betrayed his people.

People being forced out of their homes in the name of peace? WTF? Where do you get peace from that?



Perhaps Sharon is seeing the bigger picture. If the Jewish settlers were to continue inhabiting the Gaza Strip and other disputed areas then the terrorist attacks would continue and possibly get much worse. At least this gives the Israeli government some right to stand up and say "Hang on a minute, we gave you the land, why are you continuing the attacks against us?" It also negates one of the main reasons behind terrorist attacks; the occupation os the settlements. Perhaps Sharon (and others in the government) are finally waking up to the fact that they can't have their cake and eat it.

Written by: Violently Tame

Also the U.S. is negotiating with palestine for oil rights in the lands that they have recently "aquired".Most of the jewish people in the gaza strip do not want to leave. It is their land and it is wrong for the U.S. to support palestine in the way it has.



I'll be blunt. It makes a change from the US supporting the Isrealis. The American people were shocked when the Palestinians danced in the streets after 9/11 but when you see people who are occupying your land, killing your people using American built hellicopters, firing American built missiles and bullets before demolishing your house using an American built bulldosers all paid for with American money you are bound to be a little pissed at America. Perhaps this is Americas way of showing the Palestinian people that they aren't the big bad that they've come to hate. "Screw both sides, make tonnes of cash" - the new American dream.

And if the land is "God's" and both cultures believe in the same "God" then surely there must be some way co-exist. I strongly doubt that the enemies mentioned in the bible or torah are Muslim arabs. Purely because the Islamic faith didn't exist when the stroies that make up the bible were created. For all we know, the enemies that the bible speaks of could be space aliens from the planet Zog3, that is, if they exist at all.

But then I might be wrong. I think Israel are doing the right thing and saving themselves more bloodshed in the furure.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

I mean, you have to look at it from Palestinian eyes. Here they are sitting in this land for 2000 years when the Brits and Jews pop in and say "Oh, BTW, this is ours."


Exactly what I was thinking. It is a complex situation, and I do feel very sorry for the settlers in the Gaza strip who are being made to leave their homes, as this is obviously out of their hands. I'm sure we can all imagine how awful that must be. At the same time, the situation in the middle east is surely one which every one of us wishes to see resolved. If the Isrealis are beginning to compromise, that can only be a positive step in the long term.

I remember meeting a young palestinian guy who was touring UK universities and discussing the situation, and it was enlightening to see his opinion of suicide bombing etc - one of complete acceptance. I could obviously never condone suicide bombings but it's clear they will continue unless the Israelis negotiate, and however strongly they defend themselves they will never be able to fully supress the terrorist action which has plagued them. I'm surprised people are condemning Sharon because he has broken the deadlock - yes, in a way which is extrememly unpleasant in the short term but which is an initial step towards compromise.

I'd rather be forced out of my home than blown up by a suicide bomber, and really that is the choice Sharon is presented with when deciding what he should do for his people.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

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Posted:I think I should point out that I'm a Jew. I'm also a staunch Zionist. But I believe that in order for Israel to exist, it has to learn to make compromises.

We can't keep treating the Palestinians as sub-humans and stuffing them in Ghettos. We had it done to us 60 years ago. WE called it a "Holocaust."


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Sporky


Sporky

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Location: Glasgow

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Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning

I think I should point out that I'm a Jew. I'm also a staunch Zionist. But I believe that in order for Israel to exist, it has to learn to make compromises.

We can't keep treating the Palestinians as sub-humans and stuffing them in Ghettos. We had it done to us 60 years ago. WE called it a "Holocaust."



Well said Doc. At times I think both sides have their heads up their arses but then I guess its just like Northern Ireland. It can be solved... we just need to get them sitting down and working on it.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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PyroWill
GOLD Member since Aug 2004

PyroWill

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Posted:Im just glad something has been done, neither side was backing down, these are the first steps to hopefully peace, it may not be good steps but its better than what was happening

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind

Give a man a fish and he'll eat 4 a day hit a man with a brick and you can have all his fish and his wife

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JauntyJames
SILVER Member since Dec 2004

JauntyJames

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Hampshire College, MA, USA

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Posted:Being shocked at what the US does is a major passtime in most parts of the world.

-James

"How do you know if you're happy or sad without a mask? Or angry? Or ready for dessert?"

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PsychoTronic


stranger
Location: Greece-Samos-Athens

Total posts: 80
Posted:U.S should not be involved in anything that takes place between other countries.In the name of terrorism they try to take complete control of countries that have oil... Look at how much wars how many innocent people got killed by U.S. The twin towers was so little if you consider all the f.... wars that U.S took the first place. U.S government thinks and acts like a god punisher.I am so so so so sorry because this will lead US to certain destroy. How many people are going to die in the name of US peace???

"For once there was an unknown land, full of strange flowers and subtle perfumes,
a land of which it is joy of all joys to dream, a land where all things are perfect and poisonous."
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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Location: Bristol, UK

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Posted:Written by: PsychoTronic
U.S should not be involved in anything that takes place between other countries.


Yes it should. Every country should get involved in other countries' policies and actions if need be, just as every human should be concerned with every other human's state of being and actions. This is why we have the UN. It's what drives the action and the action actually taken that matters.

On topic, I don't see how finally abiding by international law and many UN resolutions could be seen as giving into terrorism and that article is extremely biased and blinkered in it's comments and stats. Also your facts are slightly out - it sounds like it does matter that you're Jewish as you're emotionally attached to this issue (so please note this isn't an attack on you, you're entitle to your opinion, emotional attachment or not); and a average settler family moving out of Gaza was given about $250,000. Want to guess how much money Palestinians are given when their houses are bulldozed for security reasons?

The Gaza pullout is not the big, peace bringing action people think it is:
[list]
Israel will still control Gaza's borders (including the one with Eygpt), it's air space, it's waters, it's ports. In Sharon's own words: it's been turned into a prison, and a poor and crowded one at that.
Israel is at present expanding several settlements in the West Bank, including those around Jerusalem. Give with one hand, take with the other. Both sides say there's no peace deal without Jerusalem so this is the Israelis doing something they know will antagonize the Palestinian people.
The Israeli are still building their illegal wall that land grabs large portions of Palestine and will make daily life even more unbearable for thousands of people.
[list]
and on and on....

But the current international pressure on Israel to abide by law and for the Palestinian Authority to rebuild control after years of repression can only be a good thing. Israel exists and always will exist, but Palestine also has the right to exist and be respected as a country and a people. It is a crime against humanity that the international community has allowed Israel to behave so atrociously for so long and continues to do so. The same can be said for other countries in the past and present: old Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Burma. But I don't know if there's another country that has so many unsettled UN resolutions against it as Israel, even with the US' use of its veto. And it is the world's inaction that has contributed to the rise of organisations that target civilians in their fights for various ideologies. Did they really think that the kids throwing stones at tanks 10 years ago would just throw bigger rocks when they grew up?

Sorry, this is turning into a rant.

Final thought for Violently Tame. There are also Israeli terrorists - those that bomb and shoot Palestinian civilians. So is keeping the occupied territories also giving in to terrorists, only ones that sing the same prayers as you?


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Written by: PsychoTronic
------------------------------------------------------------
U.S should not be involved in anything that takes place between other countries.
------------------------------------------------------------

Fully agree with Dom here. I've been to a talk of an Israeli lawyer, Felicia Langer, some years ago. She has written several books on the situation in Israel and Palestine and used to support Palestinians to go to court before leaving the country. She said something like:

"Don't let people stop you to point out injustice and act against it. Lots of people, especially in Israel, say you shouldn't tell them when they make mistakes because you're German, and you have no right to get involved. But it's the opposite - you have the obligation to get involved wherever human rights are violated, especially if you're from a country that has violated them in the past."

It makes much sense to me, noone should just watch when injustice is done and then act surprised when a situation escalates.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:I think Hitler would be particularly impressed with how Israeli's treat Palestinians...

That wall is a disgrace,

Having to move off land which has been illegally occupied is hardly unfair, building on the land in the first place was the mistake.

I have absolutely no sympathy for the israeli occupation of palestine.

For more information (without the propaganda above) click here http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:'U.S should not be involved in anything that takes place between other countries.'

why not?

[the words 'pax romana' mean anything to anyone?]


ture na sig

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linden rathen
GOLD Member since Mar 2005

linden rathen

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: London, UK

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Posted:sighs

when i first erad this thread i thought i wouldnt post as i dislike the whole situation (yes im burying my head in the sand but personally this is one situation where i think all you can do is say stuff it)

the problem is jerusalem - people will do a lot for religion - so when 3 (i think, at least) major relisiogns claim one city as their holy city why are we surprised there are conflicts.

i think israel was a bad idea. unfortunatly there have been ltos of bad ideas and we have to cope with them

maybe the destruction of israel and palestine as countries would be a good start - reforming them as one secular country would be even better

but as that wont happen some sort of movement politically is good - shame its been a case of one step forward and 2 back - maybe one day we'll get there but until religion isnt such a major driving force in politics of the middle east i dont think it will happen

i just pity those who cant get out of that hell hole because i imagine it will get worse before it truely gets better frown


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Sporky


Sporky

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Location: Glasgow

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Posted:Written by: quiet


'U.S should not be involved in anything that takes place between other countries.'



why not?



[the words 'pax romana' mean anything to anyone?]





Eddie Izzard said something to that effect. "You are the new Roman empire... yeah... there's no other big country... you've got vomitariums and orgies to look forward to!"



Perhaps if the Americans started looking out for everyone and not just themselves people, especially in the East, would think better of them as a nation.



I once saw a cartoon in the London Times of Hitler sitting on a bulldozer with a swastika on the side pushing corpses into a pit and out of the pit there is one of the bodies getting up and walking away (like the Darwin human evolution sketches) and turning into Sharon who then sits on a bulldozer with a star of David on its side pushing corpses into a pit... I'll try and find it online so that I can link to it.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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quiet


quiet

analytic
Location: bristol

Total posts: 503
Posted:personally, i think the world needs coca-cola & republicanism . . .

ture na sig

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Right, I'll say this once.

America has no business interfering with the *internal* affairs of other countries. No country should be able to interfere like that. What it amounts to is America saying "Our way of life is superior to yours. Accept it, or we will invade. You have to live by our standards."

Rubbish. All you're doing there is giving justification to any terrorist who feels like making a point because if YOU say "Our way of life is better" then HE is entitled to say the same. How do you know that (for example) an Islamic Superstate would be so bad?

Point 2: America's way of life is unsustainable. Think of the American dream. And the premise that everyone deserves to have the opportunity to live it. Right. You know that word "Everyone"? There are 6 BILLION people on the planet and growing. That amounts to 6 BILLION cars, houses, fridges, computers etc etc. All using fossil fuels. All creating waste (1.5 tonnes p.a. on average for an American household, compared to .5 tonne p.a. for a European household). Never mind the industries that go into supporting the actual population.

If you can't universalise something, it shouldn't exist. And DEFINATELY should not be held up as the ideal.

Sorry this has little or no relevance, but I get annoyed at:
Written by: quiet

personally, i think the world needs coca-cola & republicanism . . .



After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
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I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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_VT_
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx

Total posts: 1173
Posted:O.K., When i started this thread i was drunk and ill informed by my mother inlaw. Now that i have a good sit rep I now agree with dom and lightning. sorry for the uproar, but on the other hand i feel it was something that needed to be talked about.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Sethis

America has no business interfering with the *internal* affairs of other countries. No country should be able to interfere like that. What it amounts to is America saying "Our way of life is superior to yours. Accept it, or we will invade. You have to live by our standards."






Right. So the U.S. should stand by and let another Holocaust go on unchecked? That was an Internal German Affair...


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Sethis
BRONZE Member since May 2005

Sethis

Pooh-Bah
Location: York University

Total posts: 1762
Posted:Yes. Because if you interfere then you entitle them to say "Hey, why don't we invade the Western countries who are destroying the environment?"

And once you invade a country on the basis of their government then anything else is just arguing about the price. Ok, so you invade because 40,000 people have been killed by the government. Do you still invade for 20,000 people? 10,000? Where do you draw the line?

And seeing as how Capitalist countries are destroying THE WORLD and not just people, shouldn't we do something about THAT first?


After much consideration, I find that the view is worth the asphyxiation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:I personally don't mind intervention for saving lives. And ideally, the line would be drawn at 1 person - though not by invasion then. Unfortunately, the reasons countries intervene in the politics of others are usually economy-related.

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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