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Forums > Social Discussion > Intelligent Design vs Evolution

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide

Total posts: 2474
Posted:ok so first read this http://www.venganza.org/
i mean really!!!! wtf?!?!?!?! i just cant get over how censored censored censored censored censored censored censored censored this is.

*deep cleansing breath*

ok so how is it that any educated person (as one would assume the Kansas School Board would be required to have some level of education?) or even a mildly retarded chimp for that matter would even consider adding something like ID to a science curriculum?

Now if the ID group where to be taking a page or two from Cellular Automata (which evolution essentially is just in a much more complex environment with more complex survival/interaction rules) and add that the resulting now is possibly the result of design by choosing the rules such that it would evolve in such a way to have created the given now, or that the soul's link to the real world might be the apparently random quantum tunnelling effects that take place in the microtubules (yet another CA) in the brain then i wouldnt have such a big problem with their proposal. both of which are horribly speculative and cant be proven but both allow for the concept of "god" to be introduced to highlight that science doesnt have all the answers

i suppose next we will be using the fox network for our history classes? confused
/end vent


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted: Written by: Matty B


Invisible Pink Unicorn ?

if something is invisible, can it be pink ?

if it is pink, then surely we should be able to see it, and ,ergo, not invisible ?



That's kinda the point...

Linky!


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)



Atheism means an absence in belief in God, not an absence of belief.







Point out to me where I said "Atheism means a lack of belief" and I will correct it.



You have taken pains to disagree with a claim that I have never made. Recall, the conclusion of my argument was:

 Written by:

This encourages Atheists to claim not that they believe God doesn't exist, but rather that they simply have no belief on the subject.





 Written by: jeff(fake)



One can lack knowledge of something and not believe in it. I have no evidence for an Invisable Pink Unicorn and I don't believe in an Invisable Pink Unicorn. I don't disbelieve in it, I simple don't believe in it. It is the same condition with standard atheism.



I think I've made that simple enough...







Indeed, I do not disagree. To "not believe" requires merely a lack of opinion. I lack a belief in unicorns, pink or otherwise. The same can be said of a rock. When it comes to unicorns, I am an agnostic.



It would be different if I were to claim to believe that there are no unicorns. This would be a positive statement about their existence, comparable to the Atheist who states that he believes there is no God. Neither of us can prove our beliefs because neither of us are omniscient.



The interesting philosophical difference occurs when we imagine the circumstances needed in order to prove our beliefs. Assuming that any being who has achieved omniscience deserves to be called a "god," we would both have to become "gods" in order to prove our beliefs.



Were I to become a god, I could check everywhere to see if unicorns exist. If they do not, I could then rationally hold the belief that there are no unicorns.



Were the Atheist to become a god in order to make sure that there were no gods, he would face a problem. If, indeed, there had been no other gods before, there would be one now. Thus, the theory that there is no God can never be verified. Atheism is untenable because the only evidence sufficient to prove it would require a method that would disprove it.



Thus, it is irrational to state "there is no God." At most, you can say "I do not know whether there is a God, so I will neither believe nor disbelieve in His existence."



To say "I don't know, therefore I have no opinion" is unimpressive, but at least it is not irrational.



To "believe" generally means "to accept as true or real." There are three possible positions one can have regarding God:

1. I believe that God does not exist.

2. I believe that God exists.

3. I do not believe either way.



People who hold to number 1 are clearly Atheists, but sometimes people who call themselves Atheists prefer to word their position more like number 3. Agnostics would generally identify strongly with number 3.



You say potato, I say potato. I was careful in my previous post to spell out the position, rather than simply apply a label. Were I to simply use the word "Atheist" and Agnostic" I knew I would have people try to dispute the meanings of the words.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Patriarch917, in biological science we start with the null hypothesis, there is no difference; there is no god. For sure, its impossible to prove the existence of god, because god does not exit. Its all made up.

From another perspective, you will never understand God, because you don't understand the nature of the world God crreated. You keep trying to fit your so called Christian model to God's model. Doesn't work !


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:Afterall there is a more plausable explaination than the christian model...


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According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Matty_B
SILVER Member since Feb 2005

Matty_B

veteran
Location: Blu's Pocket

Total posts: 1314
Posted:somehow I can't imagine an 'invisible pink unicorn' proving anything confused ubblol

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jaero
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

jaero

your new best enemy
Location: over the river, through the wo...

Total posts: 246
Posted:we're all part of the outcome, of a really bad science experiment at the Bloobon accademy of genetic engineering by this 128 year old alien kid named Pierre from the planet of gucho in a solar system about 54,000 light years east of here. he was trying to grow mold on this thing that was similar to our potato. he dropped a couple drops of the wrong chemical onto it and it grew arms, legs, and told Pierre to go [censored] himself then blasted off through the ceiling. he told the alien overlords of this. so they tracked it down and captured it. they wanted to kill it but there was this huge debate over whether or not it was considered a living organism and if it would be legal. turned out they couldn't kill it. they made abortions illegal that day too. so what Pierre told me, is that they exiled it because it was running around reaking havok, making a huge mess by throwing it's cigarette butts on the ground, using excessive amounts of profanity and ebonics, constantly eating mcdonalds, and always always complaining about something or other. so they sent it to this little planet in a solar system about 54,000 miles west of gucho that was inhabited by dinosaurs. they thought for certain it wouldn't last a day. but apparently it did. and thats it, that's the truth. if you don't believe me, go ask Pierre. You'll know when you see him. he's the green guy with the big forehead, the big eyes, and the tiny little feet.

I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.

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mcp
PLATINUM Member since May 2003

mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.

Total posts: 5276
Posted:"The more information, the narrower the audience," Olson said.

"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:might that be because when people learn too much they find it easier to ignore the truth rather than accept they were wrong?

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:I've started wondering what one of these exams would actually look like. Anyone know where i can find an American Biology exam that features ID? Not had much luck with Google so far shrug





Edit - preferablely with an answer too

EDITED_BY: Domino (1148315891)


Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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TheWibbler
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

old hand
Location: New Zealand

Total posts: 920
Posted:ah, ok so patriarch is a creationist, that explains alot.

Personally i think the genesis idea of creation is hilarious.

God say let there be something, and there was something, and god says that's good

and on

and on

and on

I mean whoever wrote that drivel was exceptionally bad at telling a good story. I mean here we have the christian god, who created poetry, coming up with a story that would get a D grade at pre-school

For a really beautiful account of the creation of the world check out the maori version : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_creation_myth
br>
As for inteligent design vs evolution, surely the best possible design god could have made IS Evolution. I just don't get it.


Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.

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Mr Majestik
SILVER Member since Mar 2004

Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear

Total posts: 4693
Posted:
beginning of the world

this ladies and gentlemen, all makes sense.


"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley

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mo-seph


mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Total posts: 524
Posted:Now there's some funny stuff!

http://fsm.typepad.com/hatemail/


monkeys ate my brain

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:hehe! I thought about posting that as well, but the thought of bumping this thread again was too much for me!

It's a good read though!

 Written by:


Why would a perfect, infanate being have to rest for three days after creation? The bible clearly establishes a maximum one to six day resting ratio for the creation of the universe by an infante being.




ubblol


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:ubblol



"why don't pirates exist anymore? and why doesn't heaven have a stripper factory and a beer volcano?"



Good questions, well made. biggrin



I just found my favourite ever quote: "the Bible is 100% true- it says so in the Bible." ubblol ubblol ubblol


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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:I like this one:

"Back to evolution- all of the evidence that exists for it is actually false and placed there by Satan, and so that evidence really isn't inconsistent with the Bible at all, and that makes it void." ubblol


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:this makes me sad:

Creation Museum in Kentucky

ubbcrying


kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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jo_rhymes
SILVER Member since Apr 2005

jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops

Total posts: 4525
Posted:Ken Ham sounds really annoying! I dont know why his wife puts up with him!

Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:He probably has a very large... um.. yeah.. anyway.
ubbangel

wink


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Domino
SILVER Member since May 2004

UnNatural Scientist - Currently working on a Breville-legged monkey
Location: Bath Uni or Shrewsbury, UK

Total posts: 757
Posted:Wallet?

Give me a lever long enough and a place to stand and I can beat the world into submission.

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/31/inbred_fundamentalis.html
br>
This is intersting. Despite the fact that they are killing themselvs they somehow turn it in to Gods problem...

I'm really not sure what to make of it, but it is another case of religion blinding people...


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Bek66


Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place

Total posts: 4728
Posted:Actually , the christian religions are built upon the old pagan religious traditions. Only the old religions honour the Earth and her elements not an absent sky god.
When people learn that they are the authors of their own agonies and stop trying to lay blame, maybe then we will evolve. meditate meditate


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:erm yeah.

Either way it's a refutation of reason and fact, because no matter what it is based on it's unchangable by nature (or very slow to change anyway).


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:And actually the pagan side of it came in quite late on. It's just judaism changed about a bit and then aged 2000 years with political leaders changing bits they don't like.

shrug


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:Silly Mormons. The Bible forbids inbreeding.

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Mascot


Mascot

enthusiast


Total posts: 301
Posted:I respectfully disagree with Patriarch but I respect him for pretty much taking on half of HoP. Incidentaly my tag line is genuinely an unfortunate co-incidence and not a swipe at patriarch.

I think that in the end the religous idea of faith is so fundamentally opposed to the scientific need for evidence that arguements like these will never be settled. Think of doubting Thomas, the disciple who asked for proof when asked to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead and now held up as a Pariah by the church. I'm damn sure I'd want some proof or good evidence at least before accepting something like that, and I'm sure most scientists would say the same.

I think it makes more sense to say "I believe this because I just know that it is right- thats what faith is" Than to attempt to justify your beliefs with evidence.

The fact is that there is enough evidence out there to justify almost any belief. The key to science is to approach the evidence with an open mind and look for beliefs that make sense given the evidence rather than evidence that makes sense given your beliefs.

The history of twisting the evidence to fit a world view born of religous beliefs is long and unhappy.

Think of Galileo and Copernicus, describing an elegant heliocentric universe, whilst others added small circles (cycles) and then smaller ones (epicycles) to their model of planetary motion. They made the planets move like spirograph patterns, trying to fit the observations into the geocentric model they knew to be correct.


Walls may have ears but they don't have eyes

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FireTom


Stargazer


Total posts: 6650
Posted:Wiki on humanoids



.... and more



help I know - nothing is proven.... wink



Hence: to whom it may concern...

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1158832316)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink

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Patriarch917
SILVER Member since Oct 2005

Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee

Total posts: 607
Posted:They found a several different kinds of apes, therefore "Human evolution is a fact and not a hypothesis." ubblol

Don't be distracted by the artists illustrations and speculation. Look at the actual evidence. The only links ever found between apes and men have been fakes... and not very good ones ("Piltdown Man"). Other than that, all we've found have been apes, men, and that tooth that turned out to be from a pig ("Nebraska Man").


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted: Written by: Patriarch917


Look at the actual evidence.



ubblol

sorry.
the irony made me do it wink


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Sym
BRONZE Member since Sep 2004

Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk

Total posts: 1858
Posted:ubblol

Patriarch, have you read the blind watch maker yet? I have just added a book to my reading list: Why Darwin matters


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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