Forums > Social Discussion > Intelligent Design vs Evolution

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ben-ja-men
ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide
Member Since: 12th Jun 2003
Total posts: 2474
Posted:ok so first read this http://www.venganza.org/
i mean really!!!! wtf?!?!?!?! i just cant get over how censored censored censored censored censored censored censored censored this is.

*deep cleansing breath*

ok so how is it that any educated person (as one would assume the Kansas School Board would be required to have some level of education?) or even a mildly retarded chimp for that matter would even consider adding something like ID to a science curriculum?

Now if the ID group where to be taking a page or two from Cellular Automata (which evolution essentially is just in a much more complex environment with more complex survival/interaction rules) and add that the resulting now is possibly the result of design by choosing the rules such that it would evolve in such a way to have created the given now, or that the soul's link to the real world might be the apparently random quantum tunnelling effects that take place in the microtubules (yet another CA) in the brain then i wouldnt have such a big problem with their proposal. both of which are horribly speculative and cant be proven but both allow for the concept of "god" to be introduced to highlight that science doesnt have all the answers

i suppose next we will be using the fox network for our history classes? confused
/end vent


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:faithinfire, I would welcome more input from other people on the side of Patriarch (or more on his side than the others are, including myself).



We have many people knocking down 1 person here, and that will seem like a personnal attack at some point, even if that is not the intent. If Patriarch wants to point us in the direction of other debates on the internet about the same thing (I'm sure every large message board has a topic on this) with more ID supporters then I am more than willing to take part - I think my argument will stand up to a great deal before breaking - and that break would come from evidence showing that something can't happen with evolution alone.



I'm very sorry you're not willing to take part in this, I think it's been the best topic in this forum ever. Just look at everything we have talked about. We have exposed parts of both arguments that are week as well as talking about many other subjects outside the topic.



As for Wikipedia - it is a very good site indeed. If it would make you happy, I will start quoting from other sites though. Are there any that you think are more fair and true? We also need something that is upto date, as we are talking about very new things like the cobb county case. I think we all agree that news reports arn't good enough, as there is always spin in some direction.

EDITED_BY: Sym (1142457722)


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:ditto smile

this is a great debate


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Patriarch917
Patriarch917

I make my own people.
Location: Nashville, Tennessee
Member Since: 2nd Oct 2005
Total posts: 607
Posted: Written by: Sym


For the fiest half of your post: I don't clame to be an expert on this, but a quick wikipedia search found links to experiments that have recreated amino acids. Sure, we are only guessing at what the conditions were like at the time, but it does take away from your argument.

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_experiment
br>http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/19/10/1645
http://www.issol.org/miller/miller1953.pdf
br>
I'm sure some other people here who know more about this than me can back me up here: it is very possable for life to ahve been created "by chance" if you will on Earth.





http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4220.asp
br>http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/origin.asp

Those experiments showed that intelligent designers can create amino acids, but we can also create plutonium. The conditions used in those experiments could not have existed naturally at any point on earth, and if they had they would have destroyed any life that had been created.

We've discussed information generation at the beginning of life, and assumed for the sake of discussion that all of the parts of the first organism were simply appearing and arranging themselves. There is no way yet concieved of that could actual make and put together all of the parts of a single celled organism. I'm not saying that this is proof that it didnt happen, but merely that no explanation for how life could come about by chance has yet been invented.

Check out the links I posted. Most of the articles are actually technical papers which are hard to plow through, but there are a few written at the "lay" level. The most siginificant problem is that the conditions needed to manufacture the components of an organism would destroy the life once it was created, and the conditions necessary to sustain a living organism would destroy the non-living components.

In the lab, it is concievable that one day we actually could assemble a cell from scratch. Whether this cell would then actually come alive, or whether we would have simply constructed a fully formed dead cell, is a question we haven't even grazed. No one has yet come up with a good definition of "life." Mostly we just have checklists of characteristics that life has, but we can't really explain what life is. Was Agent Smith in the Matrix "alive," or just a sophisticated simulation of life? Both a frog and a candle are a complex set of organic chemical reactions. Why do we say that one is alive and the other is not? The question of what "life" is could probably sustain a topic by itself.

The theory that life came about by chance, for the moment, is a claim that must be accepted by faith. No evidence has been found to support it, and the experiments have only confirmed that we have as yet invented no way that it could have been accomplished.

One can still choose to believe that it happened, of course, and that we just haven't figured out how. However, one cannot claim that the Miller experiment actually makes the explanation more likely, since it did more to discredit the idea than to support it.

I understand that you want me to read the Blind Watchmaker. smile I will, probably after this semester ends. Right now I'm in the middle of a technical book on the origins of the Bible, and it would throw me off to really get into another topic. I have a hard enough time keeping all of my classes from running together.

Wikipedia is a good place to go to find out things that are uncontroversial or not important, such as when Abraham Lincoln was born or how much ammo the Rocket Launcher in Halo 2 can hold. On controversial subjects, it's good to check the links at the bottom and see if you can get to the real source. Before I responded to your quote from wikipedia about ID, for instance, I went to the links at the bottom and made sure that it was an accurate statement (It is a nearly word for word quote from the Discovery institute's faq.) It is not an unbiased source, but rather a multi-biased source.


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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Heh, I notice Patriarch didn't respond to my last post. But why bother continuing this argument? Nothing you say will ever change his mind; he's happy in embracing ignorant arguments that serve his purposes and won't bother paying any attention to any refutations of such.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:spiralx, Patriarch is doing a good job at replying to posts - I'm sure he will be willing to reply to your post if you ask again. There is a lot of reading and writing for everyone to do here, Patriarch is doing most of the writing at the moment.

Your last post was at best stating something that is clear to us all, and at worst unhelpful. What reply would you like to hear? Patriarch, spiralx seems to think you are either ignorant or stupid because of your views. Although I think you are missing many points and you have many missunderstandings about evolution, I do not think you are either. Someone who was stupid could not keep up with everything we have said, and even if you were ignorant, you're not any more!


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:I don't think he is stupid; I didn't say that anywhere. He's obviously a smart guy who knows a lot of stuff. But still, he has consistently "not understood" all of the rebuttals of the arguments he puts forward, and it's got to the point now where I'm not going to think that someone who talks about the meaning of the ancient Hebrew when defeneding the Bible is unable to grasp the subtleties of natural selection. Especially the fifteenth time they're put to him.

If I thought he was stupid I wouldn't have posted what I just did; it's willful ignorance I'm talking about, which is a totally different thing.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:oops, sorry i just re-read your post and you say it's either him being stupid or him trying to slip away from it. Sorry, my fault, it's late and I didn't read it fully. redface

Night guys hug


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Woo, bed time! hug

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: spiralx


Heh, I notice Patriarch didn't respond to my last post. But why bother continuing this argument? Nothing you say will ever change his mind; he's happy in embracing ignorant arguments that serve his purposes and won't bother paying any attention to any refutations of such.



He's under no obligation to reply to any particualr posts- under the current circumstances he's doing well to reply to the one's he has: being pretty much on his own defending against multiple opponents.

 Written by: spiralx


Drudwyn put it very well; Patriarch917, you are now just doing nothing but raising strawman arguments to support your cause. At the start of this debate it could be excused as ignorance; now it is obviously just either stupidity or (as I think more likely) a deliberate attempt to slip away from all of the arguments that have knocked everything you've said down.

Religion as a concept or as a personal belief I have no problem in; your brand of deliberate ignorance I think goes against everything that makes us human, I genuinely find it distresssing to think that people *want* to be that ignorant frown



Personally I wouldn't prioritise replying to a post with a tone like that either, it comes across as rude and aggressive.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I can't help but notice the continued lack of creationist articles in the respected scientific journals.



But creationist articles are so well thought out, so devoid of bias and fallacies. Must be a conspiracy...


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:I'm going to agree with Dave and once again remind you to choose your words well, watch your tones and be respectful of the person, if not the belief.

I think everyone has been doing well but I want to snip this before it gets out of hand again.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:I didn't attack him personally; I said that he's obviously smart and that it makes me sad that he keeps avoiding the subject whenever people have posted to correct him.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:There isn't so much personal attacks as expression of frustration at the evasion of points which prove him wrong and the continued use of defeated strawman arguements.

The 'arguement' was won over a hundred years ago. All that remains now is a minority of irrationals.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)




The 'arguement' was won over a hundred years ago. All that remains now is a minority of irrationals.



and because of such name calling generalizations, i refuse to truly participate in what should have been an enlightening discussion


Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Zauberdachs
Zauberdachs

enthusiast
Location: The village of Edinburgh
Member Since: 28th Jul 2004
Total posts: 220
Posted:"the insults of your enemies are a tribute to the brave"

wink


The insults of your enemy are a tribute to your bravery wink

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faith enfire
faith enfire

wandering thru the woods of WI
Location: Wisconsin
Member Since: 27th Jan 2006
Total posts: 3556
Posted:who are you huzzahing here? biggrin

Faith
Nay, whatever comes one hour was sunlit and the most high gods may not make boast of any better thing than to have watched that hour as it passed

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:The frustrating thing here is that the argument was won over a hundred years, yet misguided zealots are still trying to get creationism taught as science, in science class at schools.

The think here is that if you want to change the science curriculum in schools then you have to put up something more substantial than discrediting the existing system. Which is all Patriarch917 is doing. Just picking holes in the existing system with out offering a credible alternative, or even a basic understanding of the biology he discredits. Sure Patriarch917 could become a good lawyer some day, more so if he was less recalcitrant.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted: Written by: Stone


The frustrating thing here is that the argument was won over a hundred years, yet misguided zealots are still trying to get creationism taught as science, in science class at schools.

The think here is that if you want to change the science curriculum in schools then you have to put up something more substantial than discrediting the existing system. Which is all Patriarch917 is doing. Just picking holes in the existing system with out offering a credible alternative, or even a basic understanding of the biology he discredits. Sure Patriarch917 could become a good lawyer some day, more so if he was less recalcitrant.



ditto

to put forward in idea for change you have to prove that your plan is worthy, not that the existing plan is useless. it's very easy to gainsay, but much harder to suggest a working model.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: faithinfire


 Written by: jeff(fake)


The 'arguement' was won over a hundred years ago. All that remains now is a minority of irrationals.


and because of such name calling generalizations, i refuse to truly participate in what should have been an enlightening discussion


It is undeniable that creationism is religious and that religion is not rational but based on faith. I made no judgment in my post on whether faith was better than reason (although I'm sure you can probably guess my opinion).

For the benifit of our creationist friends the talk.orgins site has a list of all the most common misconceptions about evolution, science and information theory.

Talk.Origins Must Read List

I hope that this will stem the tide of logically flawed arguements. smile


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:this looks like an intresting program on genetic changes

on BBC 2 at 9
The Family That Walks on All Fours
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/pro...0_4224_42350_60


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Mint Sauce



this looks like an intresting program on genetic changes



on BBC 2 at 9

The Family That Walks on All Fours

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/listings/pro...0_4224_42350_60






That's on tonight- cheers for pointing it out, it looks worth watching


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:Damn, I don't have a TV, so I'm looking at you guys to fill me in! smile

I wish more programs were put on the internet though the creative archive...


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:get a tv card for your pc thats what i did

before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:I have one sitting right here, but I don't actually want a TV 99% of the time - it up takes too much time - time I need to spend on HoP wink

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:lol now there is evolution for you smile

before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:ubblol

There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Sym


Damn, I don't have a TV, so I'm looking at you guys to fill me in! smile

I wish more programs were put on the internet though the creative archive...


I missed the start of the show but there seemed to be some genetic change that affected their balance which they were able to start to overcome with the aid of a zimmerframe.

Potentialy it shows how important culture and teaching is to something as important as walking upright.

It was possible that the mutation occured in one of the key genes which lead to a greater dispossition for upright walking in apes, but there didn't seem to be much evidence one way or anouther.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:i was unimpresed

before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:*side note*
Moon landing
Evolution
The world being round
JFK assasination
String theory

its all the same....


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Sym
Sym

Geek-enviro-hippy priest
Location: Diss, Norfolk
Member Since: 28th Sep 2004
Total posts: 1858
Posted:Good news for English schools:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1735730,00.html?gusrc=rss


There's too many home fires burning and not enough trees

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