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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yes, folks, now babies can be denied boardiing a plane with no probable cause whatsoever. Am I the only one who thinks this has gone too far?

From CNN.com:

Written by:
'No-fly list' keeps infants off planes

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Infants have been stopped from boarding planes at airports throughout the United States because their names are the same as or similar to those of possible terrorists on the government's "no-fly list."

It sounds like a joke, but it's not funny to parents who miss flights while scrambling to have babies' passports and other documents faxed.

Ingrid Sanden's 1-year-old daughter was stopped in Phoenix, Arizona, before boarding a flight home to Washington at Thanksgiving.

"I completely understand the war on terrorism, and I completely understand people wanting to be safe when they fly," Sanden said. "But focusing the target a little bit is probably a better use of resources."

The government's lists of people who are either barred from flying or require extra scrutiny before being allowed to board airplanes grew markedly since the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Critics including the American Civil Liberties Union say the government doesn't provide enough information about the people on the lists, so innocent passengers can be caught up in the security sweep if they happen to have the same name as someone on the lists.

That can happen even if the person happens to be an infant like Sanden's daughter. (Children under 2 don't need tickets but Sanden purchased one for her daughter to ensure she had a seat.)

"It was bizarre," Sanden said. "I was hugely pregnant, and I was like, 'We look really threatening.'"

Sarah Zapolsky and her husband had a similar experience last month while departing from Dulles International Airport outside Washington. An airline ticket agent told them their 11-month-old son was on the government list.

They were able to board their flight after ticket agents took a half-hour to fax her son's passport and fill out paperwork.

"I understand that security is important," Zapolsky said. "But if they're just guessing, and we have to give up our passport to prove that our 11-month-old is not a terrorist, it's a waste of their time."

Sanden and Zapolsky would not allow their children's names to be used in this story because they fear people who prey on children.

Well-known people like Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, Rep. John Lewis, D-Georgia, and David Nelson, who starred in the sitcom "The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet," also have been stopped at airports because their names match those on the lists.

The government has sought to improve its process for checking passengers since the September 11 attacks. The first attempt was scuttled because of fears the government would have access to too much personal information. A new version, called Secure Flight, is being crafted.

But for now, airlines still have the duty to check passengers' names against those supplied by the government.

That job has become more difficult -- since the 2001 attacks the lists have swelled from a dozen or so names to more than 100,000 names, according to people in the aviation industry who are familiar with the issue. They asked not to be identified by name because the exact number is restricted information.

Not all those names are accompanied by biographical information that can more closely identify the suspected terrorists. That can create problems for people who reserve flights under such names as "T Kennedy" or "David Nelson."

ACLU lawyer Tim Sparapani said the problem of babies stopped by the no-fly list illustrates some of the reasons the lists don't work.

"There's no oversight over the names," Sparapani said. "We know names are added hastily, and when you have a name-based system you don't focus on solid intelligence leads. You focus on names that are similar to those that might be suspicious."

The Transportation Security Administration, which administers the lists, instructs airlines not to deny boarding to children under 12 -- or select them for extra security checks -- even if their names match those on a list.

But it happens anyway. Debby McElroy, president of the Regional Airline Association, said: "Our information indicates it happens at every major airport."

The TSA has a "passenger ombudsman" who will investigate individual claims from passengers who say they are mistakenly on the lists. TSA spokeswoman Yolanda Clark said 89 children have submitted their names to the ombudsman. Of those, 14 are under the age of 2.

If the ombudsman determines an individual should not be stopped, additional information on that person is included on the list so he or she is not stopped the next time they fly.

Clark said even with the problems the lists are essential to keeping airline passengers safe.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.





-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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fNi
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

fNi

master of disaster
Location: New York

Total posts: 3354
Posted:and apparantly, knives and other items that are currently banned from carry-on may soon be acceptable to take on the plane, as opposed to having to check them

kyrian: I've felt your finger connect with me many times
lou kitten: sneaky little meatball..
ezz: please corrupt me more

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Medusa
BRONZE Member since Nov 2003

Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...

Total posts: 1433
Posted:It is almost laughable the stupidity in the minds of the people who do this sort of thing.

When I was picking my sister up from her domestic flight they made me take my damn stilettos off to make sure I wasn't concealling a weapon in them....

No blade could fit in a stilletto heel....and I wasn't even going onto a flight I was just picking someone up for crying out loud.

Feel sorry for the parents who had to go through all that hassle just to prove their babies weren't terrorists....


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:eek

what...who...WHY would anyone be so stupid!

by the way, has anyone ever wondered how come you can't take a nail file or tiny scissors or spray cans on board, but they encourage you to take glass bottles and perfume sprays from duty free?


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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racingkitty69
BRONZE Member since Jun 2005

racingkitty69

Member
Location: Texas

Total posts: 35
Posted:What is almost as retarded as the babies on the no-fly list, is when you see a poor soul who had "SSSS" on her ticket, meaning that she has to be searched extra vigorously. This person gets patted down, takes off her sandals, and the TSA wands her bare feet!! Where is the point in that? Having seen this in my hometown's airport when I was about to go back to Iraq, I was left speechless. There's just no point in it.

Helen

Though I fly through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am at 80,000 feet and climbing.


Ravers don't stumble and fall, we trip and roll!!!

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Villet13


member
Location: London

Total posts: 47
Posted:Oh my, yeah my 11 month old baby is head of Al Qaeda! Come on! My friend , just after the july bombings was coming back from vietnam, he had on of those pocket knifes in his laptop bag, he didn't get stopped or anything! Customs was empty, no one there to search anything!

Life is but a DREAM!

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shen shui
SILVER Member since Jan 2005

shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa

Total posts: 1799
Posted:and these people are the dominant force in our world.
so glad i dont live in usa.
bad enough we feel their effects so dramatically, and because of their greed (i know, its not you regular americans, but the fools in power...) things in this world are on thin ice...
-sigh-


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: shen shui

and these people are the dominant force in our world.
so glad i dont live in usa.
bad enough we feel their effects so dramatically, and because of their greed (i know, its not you regular americans, but the fools in power...) things in this world are on thin ice...
-sigh-



Things in the world have *always* been on thin ice. Look at history...Romans, Mongols, Huns, Goths, Visigoths, Vikings, Christians, Jews...the list goes on and on.
We are only pissed because we are the ones inconvenienced by it.
Some airlines do a full out search. When I was flying out of Jet Blue from LA last year I was patted down..shoes removed, my bags dumped out, my books gone through (to make sure they weren't hollowed) and I had to put it all back together. I thought "What the hell?" until I realized, *everyone* was getting that. It absolutely sucked. In Chicago, O'Hare this past May, I had to go through security...twice. Once when I entered the airport and once when I went to the terminal to get on the place. And every leg I had to remove my shoes for security. I didn't have a special ticket, or my name on a list or was even the 4th person in line and so was randomly chosen. It was everyone.
Babies were searched then too.

It's stupid they didn't allow them onto the plane, but it is not because there is a law stating that "babies can not be allowed". It was mistaken identity and is completely inane, but I do not see it being in violation of any civil liberties, they are not saying they can not fly at all. Nowhere did it say that the babies were terrorists. It said the babies shared a similar name. All this means is that you have to be sure to carry your identification with you when you travel and that these lists need to stop being so vague and arbitrary.

Personally, the story on CNN about the adults beating the crap out of each other and trampling a baby carriage all so that they could get a $50 used laptop is far more frightening and far greater a sad statement on current society.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Pele

It was mistaken identity and is completely inane, but I do not see it being in violation of any civil liberties, they are not saying they can not fly at all. Nowhere did it say that the babies were terrorists. It said the babies shared a similar name. All this means is that you have to be sure to carry your identification with you when you travel and that these lists need to stop being so vague and arbitrary.



Ah, but the "No Fly" list is exactly that. There are people on the list who got there for reasons unbeknownst to them. And there is NO APPEALS PROCESS. You wind up on the list...you don't get to fly. EVER. End of story. The ACLU is working on it.

Written by:

Personally, the story on CNN about the adults beating the crap out of each other and trampling a baby carriage all so that they could get a $50 used laptop is far more frightening and far greater a sad statement on current society.



More frightening? Greater a sad statement? Not sure. But equal, yes.

Asses rule the masses, who are asses.

It's ugly out there.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:Written by: Doc Lightning


Ah, but the "No Fly" list is exactly that. There are people on the list who got there for reasons unbeknownst to them. And there is NO APPEALS PROCESS. You wind up on the list...you don't get to fly. EVER. End of story. The ACLU is working on it.





Actually, that's not true. There is an appealate board/process and several people who have had similar names to theirs get put on the list have had it taken off.
There are several articles on this as it has been in the news alot lately, and that is something they make very clear...it is not an absolute (including the one you linked to).
You can also ask why your name is on the list (going through the proper channels of course) and find out, usually that it is a mistaken identity.

The other thing is...this list is not new. It has exsisted for *decades* but because of the increase of names on it, more complications have arisen from it. Yup, that sucks but it is not as absolute as you seem to think it is, nor is it a fresh and new restriction from the gov't. *shrug*

It's no biggie...because it can be faught and gotten over. It is like every other travel complication, a pain in the ass but you get a free ticket in the end. wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I'd have thought that the 'no fly' list had some sort of social security number linked to it and not just an 'anyone with this name' list.

Dumb hypothetical questions.
What if those babies changed their names?
What if the terrorists changed their names?

Actually the BBC just flubbed a few days ago showing the picture of a 12 year old boy as one of the london bombers when it was just someone with his name. Makes for a really awkward first day of school this year I guess. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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