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Forums > Social Discussion > A little rant about Nazi stuff...

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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Sorry to everyone about this, but I'd like to hear other people's opinions. I've said similar things in quite a lot of threads, but what I'm going to talk about is a reoccuring thing and as far as I know most people don't really think about it.

I'm quite tired of everything bad being associated with the term Nazi (nazi methods, somebody's boss being a nazi, etc), and also anything bad in the world today being related back to the Nazis, like the use of marketing originating from nazi propaganda in Pele's thread about the dove advert. Neither propaganda nor marketing were invented by Nazis, although they did use it in a horrible way, but it's by far not the first time it's been used politically and to harm others.

Please don't get me wrong. I am NOT trying to defend anything happened in WW2 and the time leading to it. I'm just sick of people using the term Nazi without thinking about it and in a more or less fashionable way, also of people going for the easy version of "it's bad, so it's to do with Nazis", instead of actually getting informed about the history of whatever they're talking about.

In a recent survey to do with the London bombings on what holds together Britain, resistance against Nazi Germany was top of the list. Today? Isn't that a bit sad? And where do all the people under 75 come in? And do the people who said that know how long Britain was just watching because they actually thought Hitler might be up to stuff useful for them?

All this leads to people from my school being beaten up on an exchange for being a "Nazi" (now that's reversed fascism!), half-German-half-English schoolkids getting "Nazi" sprayed on their lockers, and to media still thinking that a guy with a silly beard and a bad German accent is the funniest thing in the world.

I apologise to all of you who have heard this countless times before, and those who actually think about what they are saying. I'd just like to know if any of you...
... even vaguely agree
... if you all think I'm exaggerating
... if it's just a normal language development to take the term "Nazi" from its original meaning and turn it into a thing to be used for whatever
... or even if Germans today deserve being called Nazis and laughed at even 60 years after the end of world war 2

Thanks a lot for your opinions... I've never been called a Nazi to my face here (though there have been quite a few people saying "don't mention the war" or calling me a Kraut), but people I know have, and I get upset at the media from time to time even though I know they just do it to increase their sales by bigger headlines rolleyes


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast

Total posts: 5967
Posted:hug

I totally agree with you Birgit, it is sickening and unacceptable that such stereotypes are still being used.

It's ignorance and fear that keeps it going...

Take care lady
hug


Getting to the other side smile

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Nazi'ism is a political movement. There are still Nazi activists all over the world. Nazi politics are extremely bad, one of the worst forms of facism ever invented. To say that the word Nazi shouldn't be associated with bad things is denial of historical and political facts.

I would never suggest that 'German = Nazi' or vice-versa. That is simply racism getting confused with politics.
Please dont think that by using the term Nazi I mean Germans. Anyone who does use the word like that has no idea of its origin and meaning.

To me the word Nazi has become synonimous with Facism. Not a specific nation.

Sorry if I caused any offence - I would never mean it smile

For the record - The Nazi party perfected 'propoganda' and what we now understand by the word today is defined by their actions. (The states actually employed the Nazi party's propoganda specialists after capturing them at the end of WW2 -this is the main reason for the methods and definition sticking)


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Hey Seye!

I wasn't only aiming at what you wrote, it was just the latest thing on here smile No offence taken!

Nazi-ism is not a universal political movement, but fascism is. I don't really like using the terms synonymously, because there are other forms of fascism than that of the Nazis. And using the term Nazis for 1930s-40s German fascists (and modern Neonazis) is actually the right way to use it I think.

I wasn't meaning you shouldn't associate Nazis with bad things, it was the reverse of that idea that I'm complaining about. Just because Nazis are/were doing bad things, not all bad things should be associated with them. I hope this is a bit clearer now smile am a bit crap at saying things precisely in English, especially when it's something I care about and can't just describe in scientist terms redface


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Diz


Diz

Mr Dizzy....
Location: Spiralling into uncertainty

Total posts: 154
Posted:I agree with you in so far as comments being made to someone directly and with the specific intent to associate someone with the horrendous acts that were carried out in WWII by this political group. This is not acceptable! But there are a load of morons out there who have no idea as to what there saying and are just saying it to be hurtful. Unfortunately I dont think well probably ever be rid of this type of attitude.

However..

IMHO I also think that the term Nazi has made its way into our language as part of that continual development. Not to infer someone has a tendency to commit mass genocide but, but to infer an unwavering authoritarian attitude. Im not saying that I agree with that usage but I think its there.

Many words originated from groups or names, which have found there way into the English language and no longer specifically relate to the original group or person. By way of examples the words Hooligan and Thug, both derogatory terms, which describe someone with antisocial attitude or someone who carries out antisocial acts, both originally taken from names of people/groups.

Hooligan Hooligan almost certainly derives from the name Houlihan or O hUallachain, but the specific person whom the term originally referred to has been lost to the ages. There are various explanations as to particular individuals. Often suggested is a Patrick Hooligan and the Hooley gang who (separately) terrorized a section of London in the 1890s.
An 1824 play (predating either of the above explanations) has a rough character named Hooligan. Since it was a practice of the theater to name characters after words that described their qualities, it is likely that the term existed at this early date.
Taken from wordorigins.org

Thug The word 'thug' arrived into the english language when India was part of the british empire. The british came accross a 'cult' known as Thugee who were worshipers of the hindu goddess Kali. A Thug was a member of this sect. They were know for ritual sacrifices and robbery which they carried out in the name of Kali.
Taken from wordwizard.com


"To live a creative life, we must lose our fear of being wrong."
A Fortune Cookie

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:I can understand that smile

The UK has an awful history of brutal acts. It just happens to be the case that we usually got to write the history texts and we forgot to mention most of the bad things that we did. Therefore we are not subject to the same national stereotyping.

(When I say 'we' I mean it in the loosest possible way. I am in no way patriotic and dont see myself as being British for anything other than legal reasons. Just because I was born here does not make me property of this country.)

I can also understand the difficulty with language.
Mein deutsch ist sehr schlecht. wink


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Thanks a lot Diz, I had no idea where those words come from! Hooligan has even been integrated in the German language, and I just saw it as just another anglicism and never thought about its origin!

I wonder if there's any Thugees left, too...

And Seye, I'm glad we understand each other smile

It's such a difficult/emotion-laden topic that I was quite scared I'd seriously p!ss off lots of people when I first started it, I'm happy that's not the case so far! biggrin


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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Sporky


Sporky

addict
Location: Glasgow

Total posts: 663
Posted:I once had an argument with someone about who invented the Concentration Camp. It was the British in the Boer War and yet the Nazi's are always blamed for their creation. In some respects Hitler was a good leader (before you hit the flame button hear me out) as he created almost 100% employment in post depression Germany and was able to instill massive ammounts of national pride in the general populace at that time. He put everyone to work building roads, munitions and working in the army. Compare that with the George W Bushes and Tony Blairs of today and you'll see that under his madness there were glimmers of genius there.



I know this is slightly off topic but people also seem to forget that Hitler and the Nazis did not just murder Jewish people. The "Final Solution" also included the irradication of political opponents, artists and scholars who refused to accept the Nazi ways and, most tragic of all, people with physical and mental handicaps. My youngest sister has learning difficulties and it angers me that we never remember those who couldn't do anything to protect themselves.


Have faith in what you can do and respect for what you can't

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Pre WW2 Hitler was also responsible for the 'Peoples Car' or in german 'Volks Wagon'.

Amazing that, the ultimate hippy vehicles would be nothing without one of the worlds most despotic fascists.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I have to agree with the original post. A little story:

One of Hitler's projects after exterminating the Jews was to open a museum called the "Museum of a Dead Race" and in this museum they'd have Jewish art and Jewish books and such.

People would go to this museum and say "Wow, this is inferior art, it's inferior literature, etc. etc. etc." because it's Jewish.

The same is true of us with the Nazis. If you aren't aware that the Nazis did some horrible things, then please visit your nearest Holocaust Memorial center. But they also did some great things. They rebuilt Germany's infrastructure, employed millions, and helped to contribute to technical and scientific advances. Hitler was a vegetarian. Does that make all vegetarians Nazis?

And now it's the same with the whole "terrorist" thing. We've got to stop labeling things that they aren't.

There are people with similar views to the Nazis around. They're often the first to cry "Nazi" at others. And that's when I stand up and say that I'm a Jew and that I am related to Survivors and that I know damned well what a Nazi is and isn't and that until they study Holocaust history and talk at length with a Survivor, they need to stuff it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Seye
SILVER Member since Mar 2005

Seye

Geek
Location: Manchester, UK

Total posts: 1261
Posted:Doc...
A couple of years ago I went to a lecture from a guy who was Belsen as a child. It was a very wiered experience hearing him talk about it. After the lecture he agreed to talk to the few of us that wanted to meet him. Again, extremely wiered. He had absolutely no emotion towards any of the events and saw them merely as factual things about his childhood.

All of this said IMO the atrocities linked to the Nazi party during WW2 should be thought of in the same light as the Crusades and the Inquisition. All of them were mass killings linked to peoples prejudices.

It is important that they are remembered for their facts and not just the image that people have created for them since. (The crusades is the perfect example of this - they are still thought of by many as a great moment for the British Empire)


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Birgit
BRONZE Member since Jan 2005

Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 4145
Posted:Lightning, this is a very good point. I remember going to Israel when I was 18, I was on a school exchange. A lot of the programme was of course on holocaust. Most of it was "old stuff" to me - I knew the figures, I'd learned stuff in school and in preparation for the trip, I'd seen things on tv every year for the anniversary of certain events like freeing of concentration camps. But the one thing that did really move me and make me cry was when an old lady told us how her parents sent her to Switzerland when she was about 15, and her mother gave her her good bedsheets and said "this is because I won't be able to give them to you for your wedding."

Very often it's more the single people you talk to and you can identify with than the thousands you see in a documentary that can touch your life.


"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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jeff(fake)


jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh

Total posts: 1189
Posted:I've been compared to Nazis before once when I was trying to hold a discussion on anouther forum. It seem to just be a knee jerk reaction from stupid people who are incapable of justifying their opinions when they can't back them up.

There's a whimsical name for how threads invariable end up mentioning the Nazis but I can't for the life of me remember it.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...

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