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The Tea Fairy
The Tea Fairy

old hand
Location: Behind you...
Member Since: 2nd Jul 2004
Total posts: 853
Posted:Hi all

I've been studying the use of complementary therapies in palliative care for a research project at Uni. I've been looking at how these often clinically unproven therapies are being integrated into conventional medical care for the dying, the reasons for it and the benefits of it e.t.c.

One of the things I've been up to is watching a therapist give reiki treatments to patients. I started talking to the therapist afterwards about the 'energy body' and if she can see it. She says she just feels the energy, but cannot see it.

I personally would like to believe that we each have an aura or 'energy body', but at the same time I don't like buying into things without a healthy dose of scepticism also. So I was wondering what you guys all think...

If anyone also wants to argue for or against auras, or give their personal experiences with 'energy', I'm interested in whatever you guys have to say.

Cheers.


Idolized by Aurinoko

Take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind....

Bob Dylan


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: gita


is anyone else getting dizzy reading this thread? wink


I'm certainly learning a lot about the "open mindedness" and "politeness" of people who believe in auras. frown


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted: Written by: crowley2


has any1 done tai chi and made a chi ball basicaaly makeing a ball beetween ur hands by a few exercises and breathing control did this once real freeky



Not with Tai Chi, but I do energy play where I do pretty much the same thing.....
Go into alpha state and create an energy ball between my hands...have also done the same type of thing with a partner where you can actually make the other person almost fall backwards with an energy push...
Nothing to it!


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: fyrespirit


 Written by: crowley2


has any1 done tai chi and made a chi ball basicaaly makeing a ball beetween ur hands by a few exercises and breathing control did this once real freeky



Not with Tai Chi, but I do energy play where I do pretty much the same thing.....
Go into alpha state and create an energy ball between my hands...have also done the same type of thing with a partner where you can actually make the other person almost fall backwards with an energy push...
Nothing to it!


What kind of experiments could you do to rule out a psychological effect?

Three spring to mind:
1:Attempting to push over an inanimate object (not valid if the claim is that only people are affected)
2:Attempting to push a partner who is blindfold with ear muffs, thus being unaware of when it occurs or from what direction (would require care to rule out subconscious prediction of the thrower's timeing by the throwee)
3:Attempting the same thing with someone who is unaware of the situation.

Clearly they would need more stringent controls to rule out all possibilities, but it would be a start. smile


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:I'm not doing freakin' experiments!!!

This is called energy play and is done for no other reason than to develop personal energy.

And with a partner...you both close your eyes...and are as quiet as you can possibly be...nothing but the breath.

All it is for is to be able to feel and acknowledge that personal energy...

Are you so out of touch with your own spirit that you can't sense the energy of people around you???
You must be a miserable person indeed...which must be why you have to try to tear down everyone else.


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:Charming. frown

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:#1, #2 and #3 are actually the same thing: they're all pushing over a physical object.

apart from the fact that #3 is unethical.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon


#1, #2 and #3 are actually the same thing: they're all pushing over a physical object.

apart from the fact that #3 is unethical.


Some people might believe that there is a difference: that only people are affected, or that only believers are affected, etc.

The person in number 3 would obviously be a willing volunteer. They just wouldn't be told the exact nature of the experiment. Crash mats would be provided as a saftey measure.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


gita
gita

.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
Location: brizvegas
Member Since: 13th Oct 2003
Total posts: 3776
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: gita


is anyone else getting dizzy reading this thread? wink


I'm certainly learning a lot about the "open mindedness" and "politeness" of people who believe in auras. frown



just as i am learning a lot about the "open mindedness" and "politeness" of people who don't believe in auras.

seriously, i think most people who truly have abilities of this nature would not demonstrate them just to prove to you (or anyone else for that matter) that it is real.

i can't believe i've been sucked into this thread! arg.

all i'm trying to say is that from what i've read - i think you'll all have to agree to disagree. noone seems to be budging on their beliefs/ideas/etc, so can we stop getting narky please? ubbangel

right, i've said my two cents, i hope it gets read. cheers mates!

smile


do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!

if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!

smile! grin it confuses people!


Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:volunteer ey? so they'd then also be biased because they volunteered? umm

and i wasn't aware we were talking about telekinesis here anyway.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:I'm very willing to "budge" from my beliefs.

I think I've already listed a number of measures the believers could undertake to convince me there is "something". A more rigorous situation would convice me entirely. From there we would proceed to collect our Randi money and Nobel money, shake hands with the king of Sweden, and change the world for the better.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:willing to "budge" from your beliefs?

male-bovine excrement.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon


volunteer ey? so they'd then also be biased because they volunteered? umm


A want ad would be placed for volunteers for a scientific experiment. They would be compansated for their time perhap with food or a small payment. smile


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:A psychic correct me if I am wrong, but I would think a psychic wouldn't do anything to anyone not explicitly willing because of the kind of level psychics deal with people on. We're leaving superficial levels here.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon


willing to "budge" from your beliefs?


Yes. That's what it means to be a good scientist.

If Valura can perform positively in the experiment I proposed I would certainly take notice. I would probably request a follow up and a film of it, perhaps go out to conduct one myself.

If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim.

That's what it means to be open minded.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: Rouge Dragon


A psychic correct me if I am wrong, but I would think a psychic wouldn't do anything to anyone not explicitly willing because of the kind of level psychics deal with people on. We're leaving superficial levels here.


The want ad or the the experimenter would then state to the persons that they had to willing to undergo "psychic" proceedures.


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


gita
gita

.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
Location: brizvegas
Member Since: 13th Oct 2003
Total posts: 3776
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


If Valura can perform positively in the experiment I proposed I would certainly take notice. I would probably request a follow up and a film of it, perhaps go out to conduct one myself.

If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim.

That's what it means to be open minded.



i'm sure there are a few people here on hop that could vouch for valura's abilities...or you could come to oz & see for yourself. wink

why does valura have to prove herself to you? there are plenty of others out there who have these abilities. i'm sure there are plenty of articles & evidence about it out there (it's way too late & i'm way too tired to go looking right now, but i know it's been mentioned in here before).

also - is this whole thing about the stupid prize?! umm


do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!

if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!

smile! grin it confuses people!


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted: Written by: gita



 Written by: jeff(fake)



If Valura can perform positively in the experiment I proposed I would certainly take notice. I would probably request a follow up and a film of it, perhaps go out to conduct one myself.



If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim.



That's what it means to be open minded.



i'm sure there are a few people here on hop that could vouch for valura's abilities...or you could come to oz & see for yourself. wink



why does valura have to prove herself to you? there are plenty of others out there who have these abilities. i'm sure there are plenty of articles & evidence about it out there (it's way too late & i'm way too tired to go looking right now, but i know it's been mentioned in here before).



also - is this whole thing about the stupid prize?! umm



I'm not interested in anecdotes. I want objective evidence that Valura (or anyone else) has the abilities what they describe.



To my knowledge there has been absolutely no reliable, repeatable and scientically rigorous positive test for the ability to detect auras. If anyone reading thinks they can demonstrate it, I would be willing to help. If they were authentic we could change the world for the better, which is my aim in life.



Randi's million would be a good start, but it would only be the begining. The ability to prove the existance of a paranormal phenomenon would lead to the winning of the nobel prize in multiple fields and lead to a revolution in society for the better. smile


According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:Okay...I'm gonna back up, regroup and try to put this a bit more delicately and in a different form.

Example:

We all have our own individual consciousness...agreed?...that which noone other than ourselves can experience...
Noone else can feel for us, see for us, know the things that we are personally experiencing at any given moment in our lives.
Unless you're a solipsist and believe that nothing else but yourself exists, then you have to acknowledge that each of us has that individual consciousness...our own spirit.
To me, this is an amazing, wonderful, joyful thing.
It says to me that we are so much more than we realize on a day to day basis...
Just sit back and think about it for a moment...
This world that we live in is made up of so much spirit, so much wonder...how can you not believe in magick???
I will even acknowledge that you, Jeff, have this very same spirit and would submit to you to open your mind and try to develop your own inner temple...your own magick...your own personal energy.
Get to know your soul, hun.

All the rest is darkness!

ps...I am a pagan High Priestess...I believe in magick in EVERYTHING!!!


"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:This subjective world is doing a darn good impersonation of being objective. smile

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


Bek66
Bek66

Future Mrs Pogo
Location: The wrong place
Member Since: 27th Aug 2006
Total posts: 4728
Posted:I give up...you just want to be an ass!!!

"Absence is to love what wind is to fire...it extinguishes the small, enkindles the great."
--Comte Debussy-Rebutin


jeff(fake)
jeff(fake)

Scientist of Fortune
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 15th Apr 2005
Total posts: 1189
Posted:No, I am the darkness, offering a single candle.

According to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Dynamics, we may already be making love right now...


jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:Jeff thanks for the ideomotor theory. I have never heard it's name, but I thought it was a bit of a weird idea to "prove auras". Still, it was worth a shot.

Ok, I don't think Jeff is "being an ass". he's a scientist, and as such he needs undeniable proof that something exists.

I believe in auras, I've certainly sensed them when I've done scanning with reiki. However there is no way I can prove it.

I don't think there is any need for rudeness or anger in this thread.

hug


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted:Quote~ Jeff Fake

"Cue two million from Randi and the the Nobel prize committe and worldwide fame you could use to alleviate the suffering of tens of thousands. You could be a modern Ghandi"




*shakes head* there is one of the very reasons I WONT do your experiments.



I dont want to be a modern Ghandi. Im not into my ego and blowing my own trumpet.



Quote~ Jeff fake "If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim."



confused

Are you saying YOU would apply for PROFIT from MY gift? eek

Thats the epitome of rudeness right there. If Im not even willing to apply for this myself.. what makes you think I would do all the hardwork while you videotape, and then celebrate in one million dollars? Dude, I dont even know you and Im going to help you get one million bucks? ubblol



But jeff we hardly KNOW each other!

*flutters eyelashes*

ubblol



Seriously Jeff, I have offered proof from other psychic experiments that were conducted in a university science lab setting and they are not good enough for you...you fail to provide reasons as to why that is or even comment on the findings and demand to do you own tests on me. How come?



Do you believe that your tests will be more accurate than the ones done at the university of texas? Or is it that you will have control of perhaps what the outcomes may be? I mean randi is quoted as saying "I always have a way of getting out of paying"



Jeff is it that you want to prove such things exist or debunk them? What are your intentions there?

If you wanna prove them why dont you request information from the university of Texas? The hard work is already done for you.



Now as your claims to closemindedness on my behalf why would you think that? I have stated that I believe that we are speaking in circles gouing around and around in the same lines of discussion... why is that closeminded?



I started off by stating that I believe that science and spirit go hand in hand regarding the energy and vibration aspect of things... how could you therefore see me as closeminded? How could that be?



I would also like to point out that others have noted you being particularly harsh towards me and I have made sure I have been nothing but polite in return. confused

I was quite offended at your statements on my opinions on my abilities and have pointed that out in previous posts you have ignored, but are yet to have any type of acknowldgement from you.



Why is it I need to learn the scientific method? Batmans the scientist, not I. ubblol


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


crowley2
crowley2

official hop cutie
Location: Uk, Essex, Clacton
Member Since: 22nd Nov 2005
Total posts: 272
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: Rouge Dragon


willing to "budge" from your beliefs?


Yes. That's what it means to be a good scientist.

If Valura can perform positively in the experiment I proposed I would certainly take notice. I would probably request a follow up and a film of it, perhaps go out to conduct one myself.

If the follow ups were positive I would apply for Randi's prize, and certainly believe Valura's claim.

That's what it means to be open minded.

#
eek A good scientist biggrin haha a good scientist believes anything is possible until she/he can disprove it


The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry pratchett


GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted: Written by: jeff(fake)


 Written by: gita


is anyone else getting dizzy reading this thread? wink


I'm certainly learning a lot about the "open mindedness" and "politeness" of people who believe in auras. frown


I really started to get a good look at the ability of 1 person to come up with a continuous barrage of conflicting opinions to anything anyone else has to say that doesn't fit in with his "views". To the point i'd like to reach through my computer and.... Sorry your really arrogant. censored censored censored censored mad2 mad2 mad2


:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile


jo_rhymes
jo_rhymes

Momma Bear
Location: Telford, Shrops
Member Since: 10th Apr 2005
Total posts: 4525
Posted:GitasGuy, Jeff has not once insulted anyone.

people's views differ, that's what makes life interesting.

hug


Hoppers are angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly.


Pogo69
Pogo69

there's no charge for awesomeness... or attractiveness
Location: limbo
Member Since: 6th Apr 2006
Total posts: 3764
Posted:this thread is a perfect example of why I don`t spend much time in the *social discussion* section...

--pogo (pat) [forever and always]


GitasGuy
GitasGuy

Pooh-Bah
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 6th Jun 2006
Total posts: 2303
Posted:I didn't say he was insulting anyone, i've said he hasn't the ability to take on board anyone elses opinion.

:admires giant wooden aeroplane: Its about time trees were good for something, instead of just standing their like jerks!!! ubblol ubbtickled

Homer rocks!!!! ubblol ubbrollsmile


Valura
Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Since: 25th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6391
Posted: Written by: jo_rhymes


GitasGuy, Jeff has not once insulted anyone.
hug



*Puts up hand*

Actually sweetie he insulted me... in regards to my "subconcious beliefs on my abilities"

But Im a tough wee chicken. I'll live.. biggrin ubblol ubblol


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I've been following this thread and don't feel that Jeffs been insulting.

Some replies to him seem to have assumed that he's saying auras don't exist and a few have been, IMO, a little unecessarily rude.

I've defended 'alternative' views of reality, like homeopathy and energy healing, on various past HOP threads, against science supporteers who, i felt, were being a bit over-zealous and dismissive.

However, when it comes to justifying 'alternatives' via science, i feel it is very important that scientific method and protocols are strictly followed- sadly, often they are not.

Personally, i don't think homeopathy, auras or the after-life will be proven or shown to be probable, by science, in the near-future.

(Neither will they be dis-proven).

I feel the validity, or justification, for the above, lies not in scientifically trying to prove them, but in the perceived benefits they bring to those who engage in them.

Personally, I'd like to see practitioners and believers simply focusing on that, rather than, as many do, using 'pseudo-science' to try and prove them.

Using bad science or incorrect protocols, simply brings the alternative healing arts into further disrepute and, to the extent that a minority of scientists are prejudiced against them, forms part of the reason.

It's sad, but undeniable, that many, many mediums have been shown to be frauds, by the likes of Houdini who attended sceances and would reveal the apparatus used.

This does not show that all sceances are faked- simply that it is fairly easy to fake them and, that many 'mediums' have done so.

I feel that Uri Gellar, david Blaine and derran brown form an interesting scale when it comes to this issue.

All do basically the same thing, which is 'unnatural/amazing/bewildering' feats for entertainment/profit.

Gellar claimed, in his heyday when he became famous for his abiltiy to 'bend spoons', that his abitilties where paranormal.

Blaine, famous for his levitation stunt, neither seemed to claim it was real, or that it was a trick.

Brown (a UK magician/mentalist) pulls of amazing stunts, including converting a room full of stauch athiests into religious believers and making strangers fall unconscious simply by talking to them on a phone.

However, despite his incredible ability, he always maintains that his abilities are not paranormal, simply well-practised tricks. Indeed, in the past, he has made the 'secrets' available on his website.

The vast majority of 'paranormal' activities, can be reproduced, especially by those versed in conjuring (this is why is is often conjurers who do expose fake mediums).

This does not disprove the after-life, but it certainly doesn't encourage the sceptics to take it seriously.

It's important to note, that where paranormal claims are made, yet the reality is that there is no paranormal aspect, it is not necessarily the case that the practitioner is a conman/woman- often they just have an innate unconscious ability and genuinely believe in what they are doing.

(ie 'cold-reading' can achieve most of the effects of medium-ship and, while in can be done intentionally by a faker, it can also be done with no conscious intent, with the 'medium' sincerely believing that their ability is paranormal).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


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